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dr wu23 
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Joined: August 22 2010
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 Posted: August 22 2015 at 08:49 |
 Toaster Mantis wrote:
I get the impression that a rock opera tells a narrative story over the course of the album, whereas a concept album just has to have a unifying conceptual theme going through all the songs (as well as visual presentation etc.) and does not have to be as specific.
To use specific albums, The Wall would be a rock opera and Wish You Were Here a concept album.
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Fair enough but WYWH had 2 concepts so we have to create a new category called Double Concept Album.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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RoeDent
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Location: Wales
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Posted: August 22 2015 at 16:20 |
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Rock operas are albums where the lyrics consist entirely of dialogue between characters, such as Tommy, Snow and Scenes from a Memory. The lyric booklets normally tell the listener which character is singing what lyrics.
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Svetonio
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Posted: August 23 2015 at 03:43 |
Hercules wrote:
Neither 2112 nor Wish You Were Here are concept albums in the true sense of the term. |
Exactly. Or, if they are concept albums, then e.g. last great The Who's 70s Rock album titled Who Are You is also a concept album, about the band revival after three years in hiatus. However, there are three JAE songs which direcly went at the album from JAE's sadly never released double LP concept album about the human cloning and those great songs ( Trick of the Light, Had Enough, 905), although fits majestically the album, have nothing to do with that Townshend's tiny concept about the band who went, after three years of hiatus, directly in that boxing ring with punk in one corner and prog in another. And as there couldn't be any concept album with two or more different themes, it's not a concept album at all.
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: August 25 2015 at 17:32 |
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Okay,
but they're still awesome. That part doesn't change.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
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Points: 14106
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Posted: August 26 2015 at 14:58 |
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Can you explain what difference it makes whether these are concept albums or not?
They are what they are and they sound how they sound, whether you call them "concept" or not.
Still, please respond. This is not a rhetorical question, I'm really curious.
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sublime220
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 21 2015
Location: Willow Farm
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Posted: August 26 2015 at 15:04 |
Lewian wrote:
Can you explain what difference it makes whether these are concept albums or not?
They are what they are and they sound how they sound, whether you call them "concept" or not.
Still, please respond. This is not a rhetorical question, I'm really curious. |
It doesn't make a difference but it sounds weird if you call Taylor Swift's "1989" a concept album and you don't call Tommy one, you will get strange looks. It's like defining a genre, the music doesn't change, it's just telling what type of album it is.
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There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark...
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
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Posted: August 26 2015 at 15:13 |
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It's a bit different from defining a genre, because by defining a genre, optimally, you group some artists together that tend to appeal to the same people, which helps you looking for things you may like if you like the genre. "Concept album" on the other hand isn't about how it sounds at all.
But what do I know, perhaps some people are into concept albums in particular. regardless of how they sound?
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Floydoid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 02 2007
Location: Planet Prog
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Posted: August 26 2015 at 15:40 |
dr wu23 wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I get the impression that a rock opera tells a narrative story over the course of the album, whereas a concept album just has to have a unifying conceptual theme going through all the songs (as well as visual presentation etc.) and does not have to be as specific.
To use specific albums, The Wall would be a rock opera and Wish You Were Here a concept album.
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Fair enough but WYWH had 2 concepts so we have to create a new category called Double Concept Album. |
I prefer to think of WYWH as having a single theme of alienation - the alienation they felt from Syd, and the alienation/animosity they felt towards the music industry. Whether that makes it a concept album or not is debatable.
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'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20468
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Posted: August 26 2015 at 16:28 |
Floydoid wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I get the impression that a rock opera tells a narrative story over the course of the album, whereas a concept album just has to have a unifying conceptual theme going through all the songs (as well as visual presentation etc.) and does not have to be as specific.
To use specific albums, The Wall would be a rock opera and Wish You Were Here a concept album.
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Fair enough but WYWH had 2 concepts so we have to create a new category called Double Concept Album. |
I prefer to think of WYWH as having a single theme of alienation - the alienation they felt from Syd, and the alienation/animosity they felt towards the music industry. Whether that makes it a concept album or not is debatable.
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Whatever trips your trigger.........besides, who am I to argue with an obvious Floyd fan?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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sublime220
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 21 2015
Location: Willow Farm
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Points: 1563
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Posted: August 26 2015 at 16:49 |
Lewian wrote:
It's a bit different from defining a genre, because by defining a genre, optimally, you group some artists together that tend to appeal to the same people, which helps you looking for things you may like if you like the genre. "Concept album" on the other hand isn't about how it sounds at all.
But what do I know, perhaps some people are into concept albums in particular. regardless of how they sound?
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I totally understand what you're getting at here but my point is that there are so many disagreements about what is a genre and what is not, like is Radiohead prog. Half say yes, half say no. Saying something is "progressive" still does not change how it sounds. If I were to say that Opeth is pure folk, the music wouldn't change, just how it might differ in your mind.
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There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark...
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Floydoid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 02 2007
Location: Planet Prog
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Points: 921
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Posted: August 26 2015 at 17:05 |
dr wu23 wrote:
Floydoid wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I get the impression that a rock opera tells a narrative story over the course of the album, whereas a concept album just has to have a unifying conceptual theme going through all the songs (as well as visual presentation etc.) and does not have to be as specific.
To use specific albums, The Wall would be a rock opera and Wish You Were Here a concept album.
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Fair enough but WYWH had 2 concepts so we have to create a new category called Double Concept Album. |
I prefer to think of WYWH as having a single theme of alienation - the alienation they felt from Syd, and the alienation/animosity they felt towards the music industry. Whether that makes it a concept album or not is debatable.
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Whatever trips your trigger.........besides, who am I to argue with an obvious Floyd fan? |
I could just have easily said the album is about absence - the fond absence of Syd, and the absence of any empathy they had with the industry.
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'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
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Points: 14106
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Posted: August 27 2015 at 09:26 |
sublime220 wrote:
Lewian wrote:
It's a bit different from defining a genre, because by defining a genre, optimally, you group some artists together that tend to appeal to the same people, which helps you looking for things you may like if you like the genre. "Concept album" on the other hand isn't about how it sounds at all.
But what do I know, perhaps some people are into concept albums in particular. regardless of how they sound?
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I totally understand what you're getting at here but my point is that there are so many disagreements about what is a genre and what is not, like is Radiohead prog. Half say yes, half say no. Saying something is "progressive" still does not change how it sounds. If I were to say that Opeth is pure folk, the music wouldn't change, just how it might differ in your mind. |
I'm repeating myself but I see more sense in a discussion about whether Radiohead are prog or not, because this has implications on what kind of people will come across them where and with what kind of expectations and preconceptions (assuming there are still some around who don't know them...); or whether prog listeners look into bands that are elsewhere classified as close to Radiohead. Also it may direct some Radiohead fans to prog. I don't see this kind of thing happening though based on whether or not something is classified as a concept album.
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Disparate Times
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Joined: July 12 2015
Location: Rust belt
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Points: 261
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Posted: August 27 2015 at 14:21 |
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I just heard about this (one man) band called Right Away Great Captain he did a trilogy of albums about a 17th century sailor that discovers his wife betrayed him with his own bother. From what little i heard the music is very simple just a guy and a guitar definitely not prog. Fans of this may be curious to hear more concept albums and thus be led to prog due to the large number of concept albums out there.
I think the classification of albums as concepts could be an important thing. Maybe not as relevant as genre, but still important none the less. I personally love concept albums and when i hear of them regardless of genre I'm usually inclined to check it out.
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Rednight
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Joined: January 18 2014
Location: Mar Vista, CA
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Posted: August 27 2015 at 16:35 |
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I've only ever viewed 2112 as a so-so album
Edited by Rednight - August 27 2015 at 16:35
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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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The Sloth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 05 2013
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Points: 115
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Posted: August 28 2015 at 00:23 |
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How are the Wish You Were Here themes unrelated? The band had bad feelings about Syd (a fallen music star), and also had bad feelings about the music business (which chews up and spits out stars).
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Floydoid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 02 2007
Location: Planet Prog
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Points: 921
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Posted: August 28 2015 at 10:28 |
The Sloth wrote:
How are the Wish You Were Here themes unrelated? The band had bad feelings about Syd (a fallen music star), and also had bad feelings about the music business (which chews up and spits out stars). |
It's ironic really that they were (or at least Roger was) being vitriolic about the very industry they'd done pretty well out of. I guess it's called Floydian humour.
Edited by Floydoid - August 28 2015 at 10:29
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'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: August 29 2015 at 06:45 |
The Sloth wrote:
How are the Wish You Were Here themes unrelated? The band had bad feelings about Syd (a fallen music star), and also had bad feelings about the music business (which chews up and spits out stars). |
Hence the two concepts are linked by the title track, which is why I assume it was used as the album title, [and to some extent by the cover artwork]. The first verse is about Syd ("Did you..."); the second about the industry ("Did they...") and the final verse is about them ("How I..." and "How we..."). At least, that's my interpretation.
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: August 29 2015 at 06:47 |
Floydoid wrote:
The Sloth wrote:
How are the Wish You Were Here themes unrelated? The band had bad feelings about Syd (a fallen music star), and also had bad feelings about the music business (which chews up and spits out stars). |
It's ironic really that they were (or at least Roger was) being vitriolic about the very industry they'd done pretty well out of.
I guess it's called Floydian humour.
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None of that was new to Floyd -- Cymbaline and Free Four also touched on this issue.
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What?
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Floydoid
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Posted: August 29 2015 at 10:29 |
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Very true.
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'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 16148
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Posted: August 29 2015 at 16:07 |
Hi, (correcting an accidental error!)
WYWH is not a concept album, in my thoughts, and was a "forced" album by the record company to have something that was closer to DSOTM. The stuff that some folks thought would be after DSOTM, was NOT released, and was delayed and later came out as "Animals", with the exception of a version of SOYCD. Roger just recently released these with the redone version of SOYCD, as he apparently was not a great fan of the original pieces, though one of them was the best space rock piece you ever heard (Raving and Drooling). The other 2 pieces about the industry was PF's finger, that they were big enough and could do that! SOYCD was probably something that had been created in 5 minutes while David was in the loo, and probably had a few lyrics, that were comments that they had made while discussing beers in heaven! SYWH is the perfect fake "neo-" something or other. However, it is my opinion that with other bootlegs, and considering the volume of Syd phrases and lines in many places, that SOYCD, was trying to close the book on Syd, which they were not able to do with DSOTM, that started out being about Syd, when the Greatest Gig in the Sky had a lot of things in it, some of which almost came off like Syd's. WYWH is a very disappointing album and in my book, despite so many folks liking it. to me, it's a typical rock album when a band is swindled by the machine, or record company. No different than the hundreds of millions that Led Zeppelin and the Rolling Stones got earlier! I would rather have had the 3 pieces that they were doing in concert, than a half album that was almost a copy of the DSOTM.
Edited by moshkito - August 30 2015 at 11:25
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Is it a concept album?
