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Topic ClosedSymph rock and Symph prog - the same thing or not?
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Komandant Shamal View Drop Down
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Points: 954 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Symph rock and Symph prog - the same thing or not?
    Posted: September 10 2015 at 01:52
i'v been read [and i have to strongly disagree] recently what an influential PA collaborator wrote in that interesting "suggest new bands" PA thread that the tags SYMPHONiC ROCK and SYMPHONIC PROG are NOT the same thing, ie. that Symphonic rock is not prog. Historically, it is the same thing because the SYMPHONIC ROCK tag was widely appeared in rock press and at records re-sellers lists since the middle of 70s and it was used to mark the music of bands a la Genesis, Yes, The Enid, etc, as primarly the kind of fusion of classical music and rock as well.
On the other side, SYMPHONIC PROG was appeared at internet with PA and more or less, as the term, it still exists only at PA.
your opinions?
if you agree that those two tags are about two different kinds of music - what then should be symph prog, and then what should be symph rock in your opinion?


Edited by Komandant Shamal - September 10 2015 at 03:58
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Points: 13358 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 02:28
Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman can be considered Symphonic Rock but they are not prog, even if Meat Loaf has been sugested for inclusion several times.

This is the first example I can think of
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 03:10
The same thing.
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 03:15
Is Joy by The Ventures Symphonic Prog?
Is Concert for Group and Orchestra by Deep Purple Symphonic Prog?
Is Styx with the CYO Symphonic Prog?
Is Wendy Carlos a Symphonic Prog artist?

The answer is an obvious NO.

But all of them are clear expressions of Symphonic ROCK.

And could give hundreds of examples.



El Tri Sinfónico: Symphonic ROCK......Yes......Not remotely Prog.



Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 10 2015 at 03:58
            
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 03:17
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


The same thing.


Well, you think almost everything in Bandcamp is Prog.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 10 2015 at 03:17
            
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Komandant Shamal View Drop Down
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Points: 954 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 03:56
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Is Joy by The Ventures Symphonic Prog?
Is Concert for Group and Orchestra by Deep Purple Symphonic Prog?
Is Styx with the CYO Symphonic Prog?
Is Wendy Carlos a Symphonic Prog artist?

The answer is an obvious NO.

But all of them are clear expressions of Symphonic ROCK.

And could give hundreds of examples.
none of the bands you mentioned above NEVER were considered as Symphonic rock, though "Concert for Group and Orchestra" were considered as "progressive music" at the time when it was released. BTW, at the time of that Deep Puprle release, the term for all prog was only one and it was "progressive music" - til the middle seventies we hadnt tags like symph rock, etc.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 04:05
Not considered symphonic rock by you.

PS: WHATEVER TAGS WE USED IN THE 70'S DON'T CHANGE THE NATURE OF MUSIC.

Things are what they are not what we call them.

But it's easy, if you don't like our system and concepts, create your own site and do things as you like.
            
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Points: 11400 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 04:27
One might add "as regarded within progressive rock circles" to the definitions stated above. Outside of them people in general don't separate the two, and even among music nerds the opinions differ. Cye RYM that has symphonic rock as a separate genre, while wikipedia has symphonic rock as a subset of progressive rock (one of four originating genres) with neo prog as a child genre of symphonic rock and symphonic metal as a fusion genre of it.

I suspect GEPR was among the first websites that separated symphonic rock and symphonic progressive rock back in the day, presumably due to this being stated in one or more of the books chronicling the history of progressive rock that were written in the 70's or 80's. If someone can recall when that separation came to be it might be useful for the purposes of this debate.

But that's the gist of it really. While symphonic rock and symphonic progressive rock may be one and the same to a general audience, it is mainly within the context of progressive rock that we see a separation between the two. That there are people that don't separate the two may sound strange to those who are deeply invested in the progressive rock environment of course, just as much as the notion that there are many people out there with a long lasting and deep passion for music that don't hear any marked differences to the music when they listen to Genesis and Pink Floyd. It's a matter of context, exposure and how you listen to music.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 04:34
Simply put: 

If you understand what Progressive Rock is then Symphonic Rock is different to Symphonic Prog.

If you think they are the same then it probably means your understanding of what Progressive Rock is needs some work.


Edited by Dean - September 10 2015 at 05:11
What?
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Points: 2809 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 05:42
They're just words, man.
Bigger on the inside.
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Points: 19943 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 06:42
Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

On the other side, SYMPHONIC PROG was appeared at internet with PA and more or less, as the term, it still exists only at PA.
No it doesn't exist only at PA e.g. http://www.last.fm/tag/symphonic+prog
 
Examples of symphonic rock? ELO and Nightwish.
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Points: 11400 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 07:01
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

On the other side, SYMPHONIC PROG was appeared at internet with PA and more or less, as the term, it still exists only at PA.
No it doesn't exist only at PA e.g. http://www.last.fm/tag/symphonic+prog
 
Examples of symphonic rock? ELO and Nightwish.



You did see that the last.fm description is the same as the one used on PA of course?
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Points: 19943 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 07:05
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

On the other side, SYMPHONIC PROG was appeared at internet with PA and more or less, as the term, it still exists only at PA.
No it doesn't exist only at PA e.g. http://www.last.fm/tag/symphonic+prog
 
Examples of symphonic rock? ELO and Nightwish.



You did see that the last.fm description is the same as the one used on PA of course?
No I didn't notice. That explains that then!
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Points: 45 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 07:36
If indeed symphonic rock = ELO, then symphonic rock sucks mightily.


I don't seem to recall overmuch use of the word symphonic in the old  70s catalogues.

It first  gained steam as a term in 80s in Netherlands.
(They thought it a new term  pidgeonholing good new bands when, in truth, it pidgeonholed a whole lot of new RUBBISH bands.)
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Points: 373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 09:45
AFAIK, "symphonic rock" was often used as a synonym of "progressive rock" in the 70s, but that usage is now extinct.  Usually, today, "symphonic rock" is understood as rock music which uses a symphony orchestra, either real or from a sample library (or just a handful of orchestra instruments, such as ELO's two cellos).  This is not the same as "symphonic prog", as almost any kind of rock music can be jazzed up that way, and it often is not prog but just gasbaggery.  And of course, most prog - even most "symphonic prog" classics - doesn't use a symphony orchestra.  The Mellotron of course started as a surrogate orchestra, but is so far off a real orchestra sound that it has long established itself as an instrument of its own; but many "symph prog" bands didn't even use the Mellotron.  There is no Mellotron anywhere in ELP; there was no Mellotron in Yes before Wakeman joined the band; and that are just two examples.  The staple keyboard instrument of classic-era prog actually is not as much the Mellotron as the Hammond organ - which doesn't sound like an orchestra at all (and was of course never meant as a surrogate orchestra, rather a surrogate pipe organ).
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Points: 12382 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 09:46
Originally posted by Kotro Kotro wrote:

They're just words, man.

Indeed.
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Points: 23098 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 10:15
Nymph Rock for the win!

Join me in creating a new entirely meaningless music sticker that will encompass these two old bedfellows and renew them in such a fashion that Jeff Wayne once again will permeate the airwaves of strip clubs and kindergartens.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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Points: 13249 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 10:23
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Nymph Rock for the win!

Join me in creating a new entirely meaningless music sticker that will encompass these two old bedfellows and renew them in such a fashion that Jeff Wayne once again will permeate the airwaves of strip clubs and kindergartens.




When Wayne graces said strip joints, will he have, as his special guest stars, a rhinoceros and elephant partaking in Ugandan discussions with each other?

I think we should be told.........
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Guldbamsen View Drop Down
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Points: 23098 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 10:25
LOL
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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Points: 23098 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2015 at 10:30
It certainly isn't meant to be going on in kindergartens (Jeff Wayne that is. Kids are far more into Magma these days)...
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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