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WeepingElf View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Serialism in rock?
    Posted: September 18 2015 at 13:58
As ought to be well known, serialism has been the dominant paradigm in academic avant-garde music for much of the 20th century.  However, I am not aware of any example in rock that uses such techniques.  Is there really no such thing as serialism in any branch of rock music, or do you know any?  (Not that I am much into serialism myself.  IMHO, the whole serialist business was a dead end, and resulted in mostly ugly and unintelligible music.)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 14:13
will be watching this thread, i enjoy some of the avant garde classical stuff based on it...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 14:25
Best I know of is Sonic Youth, in their album of covers of avant garde orchestra pieces SYR4, doing versions of two of John Cage's Number Pieces: one version of Four and two takes on Six. How rock they turned out is debatable, but they are wonderful takes on the pieces.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 14:27

And perhaps Terry Reilly, who made the sixties album A Rainbow In Curved Air. I can't think of anyone else offhand.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 17:27
I don't think Terry Riley was an exponent of serialism - minimalism is closer to the mark I think.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 19:13
Ut Gret's "Zodiac" is based in serialism, but not entirely.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2015 at 10:01
Originally posted by ProgBob ProgBob wrote:

I don't think Terry Riley was an exponent of serialism - minimalism is closer to the mark I think.


Yes.  Riley is a minimalist, not a serialist.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2015 at 13:19
I am a Minirialist

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2015 at 13:29
Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:

Originally posted by ProgBob ProgBob wrote:

I don't think Terry Riley was an exponent of serialism - minimalism is closer to the mark I think.


Yes.  Riley is a minimalist, not a serialist.

I thought Reilly started as serialist and switched to minimalism as a kind of rejection to serialism. Oh, well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2015 at 13:43
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:

Originally posted by ProgBob ProgBob wrote:

I don't think Terry Riley was an exponent of serialism - minimalism is closer to the mark I think.


Yes.  Riley is a minimalist, not a serialist.

I thought Reilly started as serialist and switched to minimalism as a kind of rejection to serialism. Oh, well.


You are right.  He started as a serialist, but abandoned it in favour of minimalism.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2015 at 15:14
Best example I can think of is Henry Cow's "Ruins." Few rock songs are actually serialist, just like few rock songs are actually atonal, even when many claim otherwise. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2015 at 11:16
^Agree. But I have heard many atonal singers in my day. Clown
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2015 at 11:39
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Best example I can think of is Henry Cow's "Ruins." Few rock songs are actually serialist, just like few rock songs are actually atonal, even when many claim otherwise. 


Yes, Tim Hodgkinson in particular was really into serialism, I think a number of his compositions incorporated it, but in general I too am hard pressed to think of prog rock compositions that are explicitly composed using the twelve-tone technique.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2015 at 13:09
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Best example I can think of is Henry Cow's "Ruins." Few rock songs are actually serialist, just like few rock songs are actually atonal, even when many claim otherwise. 


Yes, Tim Hodgkinson in particular was really into serialism, I think a number of his compositions incorporated it, but in general I too am hard pressed to think of prog rock compositions that are explicitly composed using the twelve-tone technique.
I hope you do this. Is it (Serialism or twelve-tone technique) have a "Extra value" or "Positive Point" for musicians?!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2015 at 14:51
I'm not sure I'd be able to recognise 12-tone serialism with a rock beat if it bit me on the arse. For example Henry Cow's Ruins is apparently based upon the Fibonacci series but you'd be hard pressed to figure that out just by listening to it.

Similarly I'm not sure I would recognise atonality if it's done well as it just means it lacks a tonal centre.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2015 at 15:11
Me too. The important is to hear music that I like. 

BTW. The second atonal quartet (first of the genre) by Arnold Schoenberg is easier to listen to than his first, long and very complex tonal quartet. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2015 at 08:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I'm not sure I'd be able to recognise 12-tone serialism with a rock beat if it bit me on the arse. For example Henry Cow's Ruins is apparently based upon the Fibonacci series but you'd be hard pressed to figure that out just by listening to it.

Similarly I'm not sure I would recognise atonality if it's done well as it just means it lacks a tonal centre.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2015 at 09:09
This depends on how strict your definition of serialism is... Blotted Science works on stuff related to 12-tone serialism and whatnot- as do a number of weird complex metal bands. Sculptured's embodiment features a form of this writing technique.

In my opinion, you almost have to be able to repeat notes or sections while moving through serialism or it is difficult to make good melodies. I still love a good melody that is able to include all 11 notes... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2015 at 09:44
It's easier to find serial killer in rock than serialism. LOL

Edited by SteveG - September 23 2015 at 10:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2015 at 10:04
I believe Larks Tongues part 2 is actually atonal, at least in part. It's certainly chromatic.




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