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Topic ClosedModern album FINAL!!! Hybris v. Spirit of Eden

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Poll Question: pick the winner of the 2015 PA's modern album tournament
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Nogbad_The_Bad View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 06:47
What exactly have you contributed other than a lot of hot air?
Ian




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 07:17
 
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

got anything more stupid to say?? PigEvil Smile
Intelligence commends to quit while you're ahead (not that you were "ahead" at any point on PA... or in life)
Don't tempt him, he'll take that last question as a challenge!
 
I'm sure he will succeed quite nicely... Wink
 
When challenged, the idiots rise to meet the waterline on the horizon
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Talk Talk were recorded, I repeat myself again, a great 80s Art Rock album, but they invented nothing what didn't existed before that album. If we discussed about "post-rock before post-rock", then for example this well know and less than 4-minute long Eno's song from 1975, in fact sounds more like "progressive" post-rock than anything on Spirit of Eden.
 
Game set & match!! LOL
 
this dude is probably just as stupidly stubborn as Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic all together in one body!!!
 
I rest my case!! Evil Smile
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 08:34
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

 
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

got anything more stupid to say?? PigEvil Smile
Intelligence commends to quit while you're ahead (not that you were "ahead" at any point on PA... or in life)
Don't tempt him, he'll take that last question as a challenge!
 
I'm sure he will succeed quite nicely... Wink
 
When challenged, the idiots rise to meet the waterline on the horizon
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Talk Talk were recorded, I repeat myself again, a great 80s Art Rock album, but they invented nothing what didn't existed before that album. If we discussed about "post-rock before post-rock", then for example this well know and less than 4-minute long Eno's song from 1975, in fact sounds more like "progressive" post-rock than anything on Spirit of Eden.
 
Game set & match!! LOL
 
this dude is probably just as stupidly stubborn as Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic all together in one body!!!
 
I rest my case!! Evil Smile
 
 
 
 
That extended version of Eno's The Big Ship is even better to solve the homework that has the working title "What really could be called post-rock before post-rock?":
 


Edited by Svetonio - October 07 2015 at 08:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 09:18
^NEU! (Hallogallo, Für Immer), Can (Future Days era), Kraftwerk (Kling Klang is shockingly similar to Djed mm...) Early Post-rock owes plenty from that whole german motorik thing. How surprising is it that? 

Talk Talk created something unique combining their different influences including jazz. And the influence from their two last albums can be heard on countless later Post Rock-albums. Stretched out, no real songs with pop-hooks, atmospheric, repetitive and somewhat experimental, but not so much complex rock music.

Art Rock? Like Roxy Music and 10CC? I don't hear it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 10:18
Have we ever tried silent treatment in response to a troll? Ermm I was thinking of bringing the thread back to normal instead of letting us help Svetonio in soiling it for seven whole pages (20 posts per page).

Edited by Dayvenkirq - October 07 2015 at 12:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 10:25
SleepySorry Svet, but I don't see/hear enough of elements in both your Big Ship links to say that Eno is the godfather or founder of Post Rock...
Sure, there is a slow crescendo in Big Ship around the 3/4 mark that could be slightly influential to post rockers some 15 years later, but 3/4 of rock could claim Eno as an influence
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 12:57
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

(...)

Art Rock? Like Roxy Music and 10CC? I don't hear it. 
Yes, there is a certain difference between Art Rock albums recorded in 70s and those from (late) 80s.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 18:15
Yes of course svetonio. But then again that goes for all progressive rock which is exactly why you don't have a point.

Edited by Saperlipopette! - October 07 2015 at 18:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 19:28
Svetonio might not be correct but you all treat him more like sh*t than we treat anyone.

Personally I don't like post-rock much so this conversation is not for me. :) Just thought I would add my no sense.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 20:05
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Yes of course svetonio. But then again that goes for all progressive rock which is exactly why you don't have a point.
Summa summarum, Art Rock, although accepted by many fans of prog rock, has its own life, and it's a different genre than Prog, and therefore Art Rock have not much to do with Prog Rock as it may seem to some at first sight and therefore to be artificialy tagged as "crossover prog" and (or) "prog related" at the most influential prog site in the cyber space.
For example, that strong influence of 70s Ambient music on 80s Art Rock acts can not be denied; on other side, you will hardly find those 70s Ambient elements in 80s Neo Prog where New Wave elements are also there; furthermore, Art Rock in general is far more British and the U.S. thing than Prog Rock which has a strong foothold in the European mainland; unlike Prog, there are not sub-genres in Art Rock but those great Art Rock acts are sub-genres (of Art Rock) per se; that different manner of singing I mentioned already, and so on. The differences between Art Rock and Prog Rock are huge and many.



Edited by Svetonio - October 08 2015 at 05:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 20:12
Yea but there used to be a genre listed on Progarchives so it can be a bit confusing haha
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 20:25
haha
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 21:03
I like turtles...err, threads not getting completely derailed, that is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2015 at 08:01
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Svetonio might not be correct but you all treat him more like sh*t than we treat anyone.

Personally I don't like post-rock much so this conversation is not for me. :) Just thought I would add my no sense.
Then how would you have us treat him? In a perfect world we should treat him with the same respect that we would wish to be treated ourselves and not as we perceive we are being treated. But the world is far from perfect and we are not saints, so when we are treated disrespectfully it is only natural to respond in kind. Because when all avenues of reasoned debate and argument fails then what is borne from exasperation and frustration is irreverence and mockery and so he is treated with the same contempt he levels at those who have the temerity to disagree with his fanciful, erroneous and unsubstantiated pronouncements. He reaps what he sows, a cycle that repeats ad nauseum.

As I publicly conceded when someone chastised me for mirroring his behaviour back at him in exaggerated parody, that can be seen as nothing better than lowering yourself to his level of 'argument', [note the use of irony-quotes], and that is indeed regrettable and in hindsight inexcusable, but in the heat of the moment perfectly justified. When someone is behaving like a dick then requesting that they stop being a dick is not without justification, and that is not an insult whereas actually calling them a dick most certainly would have been. Of course that "stop being a dick" incident was not the tipping-point, it is merely an oft-quoted excuse to avoid having to reply to my (predominately insult-free) counter-arguments. Why he needs an excuse is for others to decide, but presenting himself as the victim in light of all the denigration he heaps upon the PA, its collaborators and admins, and anyone who fails to agree with him does not garner a jot of sympathy from me.

Now luckily, as an indirect result of that reflex riposte, I have been placed in the enviable position of being able to pick-over and decimate his posts in fine detail without having to wade through a tirade of informal fallacies, non sequiturs, random meme-quotes, inexplicable YouTube videos and ad hominem replies that others have to deal with from him. And that's somewhat liberating because the only course of action left open to him is to discredit me as a person (which he has attempted on many occasions) and thus hope to belittle any counter-arguments I put forward ... which of course is another informal fallacy. His ineffectual jibes I can take in my stride since they are but mere words - and frankly a little robust commentary in a forum discourse is not something that should reduce anyone to weeping into their pillow at night - I can be momentarily offended and in that moment my ire will be piqued so I can rebuff, rebuke or ignore that at will, the choice is mine. (Anyone who plays the victim card as a result of my responding to a personal attack in like-minded fashion is pissing into the wind as far as I am concerned).

So. Enough of that bollocks, to the off-topic matter in hand: Are Talk Talk Art Rock? 

Well, yes they are - in the loosest definition of the term that is, bearing in mind that Art Rock is not a defined style of music where all artiste that have been tagged as Art Rock since the mid-60s can be identified as having common identifiable traits, because they don't. Art Rock is a catch-all for many disparate and unrelated bands that can also be identified by a "cloud" of other musicological taggings, some of these we would recognise as Progressive Rock and some we would not. Art Rock as a terminology is ambiguous, ill-defined and frequently misrepresented. This ambiguity allows too much room for argument and disagreement so (before my time) the PA decided not to continue using this term as part of its subgenre family tree, choosing instead to delineate the entire spectrum into those that were Progressive Rock (Heavy Prog, Eclectic Prog and Crossover Prog) from those that were not (Prog Related and Unrelated), whether anyone disagrees with that unilateral decision is immaterial, that is what we have and whether you agree or not, it works for us. Calling a band Art Rock is like describing a car as being "Red" or "Blue" - accurate but misleading and uninformative.

To say that Art Rock can be differentiated from another form of music by a single trait such as the style of singing is a fallacy since artistes tagged as Art Rock encompass a wide gamut of vocal styles that encompasses the whole Popular Music genre (as does Progressive Rock)  - if such a trait existed then the singers would be interchangeable (as they are in other music genres that can be identified as having a distinct vocal style, such as Soul music, Black Metal or Rap).

Wikipedia (and let's be rational here - like it or not, Wikipedia is a reference point and not the definitive be all and end all of critical argument), cites Talk Talk as being (among other things) as Art Pop and that in my estimation is a fair assessment for a band that transitioned from Synthpop to embryonic Post Rock over a brief career that spanned five studio albums. They are recognised as being the forerunners of what was later called Post Rock by their undeniable influence on that genre and not because they were the first to produce an album with Post Rock characteristics. If other artists created music with some of those characteristics before them, (and I would credit PiL with having done that in 1979) then that is fine too, as long as causation can be demonstrated (otherwise it is simply coincidence). Another Green World (and Before And After Science) are without doubt highly influential albums whose influence cut across many subsequent genres of music, but there the relationship to the bedrock of Post Rock albums created a two decades later owes more to what influenced Eno and those later Post Rock bands than the direct effect of Brian Eno himself. The argument for Talk Talk being regarded as a crossover between Art Rock/Pop and Progressive Rock (in the form of embryonic Post Rock) rests not on their earlier pop albums but solely with Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock (arguably a contemporaneous 1990s Post Rock album), and unlike the Proto Prog and Prog Related categories where such things as "influence" and "history" are taken into account, in Crossover Prog (as with all "Prog" subgenres here) it is only the recorded music that is being considered. If anyone disagrees with their inclusion that's fine, though it must be remembered that no band will ever be removed from the database; criticise the music not the people who added them (no, it wasn't me so I don't take such criticisms personally), just as it is fine to question any band added here but anyone who attacks "the geniuses" (and that I believe was in itself a crass back-edit of a worse comment) who added them can expect nothing but a whole heap of foul-smelling effluent being dropped on them from a great height in response.




Edited by Dean - October 09 2015 at 08:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2015 at 14:11
One thing is usually ignored by English mohter-language guys: some words may sound offensive but if translated back in their original languages may be not. Svetonio usually floods the teams with his suggestions but many of them are now on PA. I'm with Smurph for what it can matter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2015 at 14:16
I guess it's quite easy to feel that way when you don't encounter him anywhere else Luca. To those of us who run into him on a daily basis and have to deal with his abusiveness, arrogance and downright hostile attitude towards anyone here who tries to make the site go around.....well we're all getting a bit tired of it all now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2015 at 14:20
Luca, this has nothing to do with his suggestions (many of which, as David pointed out, have been evaluated and accepted). This thread has been derailed beyond redemption, and this is very disrespectful towards the person who did a lot of work to put the Battle of the Albums together.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2015 at 14:23
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Luca, this has nothing to do with his suggestions (many of which, as David pointed out, have been evaluated and accepted). This thread has been derailed beyond redemption, and this is very disrespectful towards the person who did a lot of work to put the Battle of the Albums together.

Indeed. I was just about to edit my previous post to reflect this.
It's not about suggestions but common forum behaviour.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2015 at 14:25
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

One thing is usually ignored by English mohter-language guys: some words may sound offensive but if translated back in their original languages may be not. Svetonio usually floods the teams with his suggestions but many of them are now on PA. I'm with Smurph for what it can matter.
I don't think lingual nuances matter in this case one bit. Many of us have made it pretty clear to Svetonio that there's a line no one can cross.
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

It's not about suggestions but common forum behaviour.
Yes.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - October 09 2015 at 14:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2015 at 14:31
Well let me just end this with the mighty Pink Floyd Facepalm:
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