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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Oregon & Garbarek on PA, but Gismonti isn't?
    Posted: December 01 2015 at 07:40
EDIT: read the later posts, where it's mentioned that Oregon and Garbarek are on PA but Gismonti isn't, which is a complete lack of coherence to be honest. Hope not to offend anyone, sorry! But listen to "Music of another present era" by Oregon, then "Sol do Meio Dia" or "Dança das Cabeças" by Gismonti and explain to me why Oregon was accepted into jazz/rock(!!!) and Gismonti wasn't accepted at all. Or listen to any Garbarek album from the 70's, where the same thing applies. It makes no sense to accept the Americans and the Norwegian but not the Brazilian - who btw has two actual prog albums in his discography and very progressive compositions throughout his career. Have a nice day!

Hi everyone,
I know, Egberto Gismonti's albums have been suggested before, and as far as I remember, someone suggested it to be taken to the jazz archives. However, I would like to present my case :P as to why two of his albums, namely "Academia de Danças" ('74) and "Corações Futuristas" ('76) should be included here, under the subgenre Eclectic Prog. . 

1 - The aesthetics are clearly prog, evident in his use of synthesizers. 
2 - The compositions are complex, and progressive. 
3 - The musicians are technically amazing.
4 - There is a sense of it being a "concept album" here, especially "Academia de Danças", and the tracks are somehow connected with each other. 

Yes, there is a lot of jazz harmony here, but that should not mean that it should go only to jazzarchives, when they clearly are more prog. Many famous prog bands and artists have used a lot of jazz harmonies before, and they are still included on progarchives. Not to mention that there is a whole section of jazz fusion, where there are a lot of albums on the website, which quite honestly have zero to do with prog rock in terms of composition, presentation and conceptualization. e.g. Miles Davis' and Hermeto Pascoal's discographies. Not that I am against jazz/rock fusion being there - I am just building my case for Gismonti here, whose music by the way is NOT jazz/rock fusion ;).

And yes, there are latin rhythms at times, but not at all as much as his other albums. Either way, he is not the first Latin American artist to incorporate these kind of rhythms into prog either, so it does not make it less prog. There are many others on progarchives who do the same. 

So, I am not saying that his whole discography should be there - I honestly don't know if you would want to put everything here or not. Many of his ECM records, which came after these two prog ones, have a lot of progressive compositions in them, but are not aesthetically or conceptually prog per se. They could however go under eclectic prog, folk prog ("Dança das Cabeças", "Sol do Meio Dia", "Dança dos Escravos", "Solo", "Música de Sobrevivência"), crossover prog, etc. In any case, these two albums that I am talking about here, and perhaps a couple of ones that preceded them, have the most clear and direct relations with prog, psychedelic, and experimental music, and should be on progarchives. It could definitely interest a lot of prog fans out there, even the ones who are not particularly into latin music - listen to it and you'll see why!

Here are the two albums:

"Academia de Danças" 


"Corações Futuristas"
Anyway, what do you think?






Edited by rsinatra - December 04 2015 at 09:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2015 at 07:55
We don't include single albums on the site, it's either the whole discography of one artist or nothing. Gismonti was suggested for PA and rejected as a whole from JR/F on PA. That isn't to say that some of his albums don't have anything to do with prog rock or fusion or that they can't be enjoyed by prof fans, we just decided he wasn't a fit for the site. I don't think eclectic would have taken him in since JR/F is more lenient on prolific jazz artists who have huge discographies with only a couple of prog fusion albums, in this case Gismonti has lots of folk, samba and lots of other records not related to rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2015 at 08:03
Isnt Egberto Gismonti a good case for Prog-related, then?

I mean, it is obvious that the discussion around his style will go on, but untill we found a veridict, he will be already here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2015 at 01:22
For an artist to get into prog related he needs to have put his mark on prog rock or in some way influenced it on a grand scale. Gismonti cannot claim either.
That doesn't stop me from loving his music though
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2015 at 04:16
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

For an artist to get into prog related he needs to have put his mark on prog rock or in some way influenced it on a grand scale. Gismonti cannot claim either.
That doesn't stop me from loving his music though

Cannot?
I'll not even pass the links from every brazilian prog-blog that put his albums to download along with Os mutantes or Marco Antonio Araujo, but here some links:

"Gismonti is a genius and a lot of his works could be characterized as progressive rock" - Marcelo Moreira, Almah (progressive metal band, in the same vein as Angra) drummer.

Asked about a album and a concert that marked him, Humberto Gessinger, leader of a pop rock group, remeber Animals from Pink Floyd and the live presentation of Egberto Gismonti. I dont think he remebered this two together by accident.

Although saying that Hermeto Pascoal e Egberto Gismonti are not exactly prog rock, this article trying to show the developement of modern brazilian prog put them both as influence. He go on to say that, together with Willy Verdaguer, their works falls more on jazz than rock (of course!).

Even Steven Wilson likes Egberto Gismonti! He's everywhere!

Even the largest page of Brazilian Progressive Rock on facebook has posted an album by Egberto Gismonti.

Last but not least: here is Egberto Gismonti, talking in a documentary about experimentalism in Brazilian music together with Tom Zé and Arrigo Barnabé - Barnabé who had been influenced by the popular/erudit sense of Egberto Gismonti.

Everything is in portuguese, you guys will have to believe in my words.

I mean, Egberto Gismonti is one of those cases that, even if its not direct influence to someone's sound, the musicians have passed by his music in one way or another. Of course I'am not gonna find the news: "Renowed progressive rock musician claim Egberto Gismonti as a direct influence and says the guy should be added on PA". LOL But at least I think I found somethings to made you guys think about it.

One more thing: BRAZILIAN MUSIC IS NOT LINEAR. Its development is different, its influences are diferent and its a COMPLETLY DIFFERENT SOUND. We are in another continent, with a diferent history. If the band do not sound like Genesis or Yes, it still can be progressive, audatious, ambitious and important to the development of the genre.


Edited by GKR - December 02 2015 at 05:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2015 at 09:33
I don't mean to start an argument or anything, but somehow it feels unfair. I mean, look at Miles Davis' discography. It's mostly jazz, with a few jazz fusions records, which I suppose were the reason he was included. But still, has he got ANYTHING to do with prog Rock? Some prog Rock artists might claim that they were influenced by him, the same way some were influenced by Gismonti. Why does he get to be in and Gismonti not? And to prove that I am not biased because he is Brazilian, I think that Hermeto Pascoal, who is Brazilian, made some amazing fusion records, but has nothing to do with prog Rock either.

Also, I've spent a LOT of time going through the subgenres prog folk and RPI on the site, and especially under the first one there is a LOT of stuff that is more like regular folk or something else, and has little to do with prog, but was still somehow voted to fit in the site - which is fine by me, I love to discover all kinds of music and I love to look through progarchives !

If you listen to Egberto's compositions besides the two albums I mentioned, one will notice that his composing style is throughout his huge discography much more related to Progressive music than Miles Davis. I love Mies' music by the way, it's just the one example that comes to my mind at the moment lol.

So yeah, I agree with GRK.   

historian9, this "folk" you mention happens to be dança days cabeças , sol do meio dia, etc? Especially the first one is an amazing work of instrumental progressive Brazilian folk, many compositions into one, progressing beautifully. He wrote very little actual sambas, and that shouldn't stop him from being considered, the same way that some prog artists who have made normal songs in some of their albums . Many artists here , like os mutantes, started their careers with different genres, like psychedelic rock and so on, only to switch to prog later..

Anyway, I guess I can't change your mind! I'm glad that at least his work is recognized. I just think that on progarchives more non-Brazilians would get the chance to "stumble upon" his work :D

Edited by rsinatra - December 02 2015 at 09:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2015 at 11:25
Originally posted by GKR GKR wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

For an artist to get into prog related he needs to have put his mark on prog rock or in some way influenced it on a grand scale. Gismonti cannot claim either.
That doesn't stop me from loving his music though

Cannot?
I'll not even pass the links from every brazilian prog-blog that put his albums to download along with Os mutantes or Marco Antonio Araujo, but here some links:

"Gismonti is a genius and a lot of his works could be characterized as progressive rock" - Marcelo Moreira, Almah (progressive metal band, in the same vein as Angra) drummer.

Asked about a album and a concert that marked him, Humberto Gessinger, leader of a pop rock group, remeber Animals from Pink Floyd and the live presentation of Egberto Gismonti. I dont think he remebered this two together by accident.

Although saying that Hermeto Pascoal e Egberto Gismonti are not exactly prog rock, this article trying to show the developement of modern brazilian prog put them both as influence. He go on to say that, together with Willy Verdaguer, their works falls more on jazz than rock (of course!).

Even Steven Wilson likes Egberto Gismonti! He's everywhere!

Even the largest page of Brazilian Progressive Rock on facebook has posted an album by Egberto Gismonti.

Last but not least: here is Egberto Gismonti, talking in a documentary about experimentalism in Brazilian music together with Tom Zé and Arrigo Barnabé - Barnabé who had been influenced by the popular/erudit sense of Egberto Gismonti.

Everything is in portuguese, you guys will have to believe in my words.

I mean, Egberto Gismonti is one of those cases that, even if its not direct influence to someone's sound, the musicians have passed by his music in one way or another. Of course I'am not gonna find the news: "Renowed progressive rock musician claim Egberto Gismonti as a direct influence and says the guy should be added on PA". LOL But at least I think I found somethings to made you guys think about it.

One more thing: BRAZILIAN MUSIC IS NOT LINEAR. Its development is different, its influences are diferent and its a COMPLETLY DIFFERENT SOUND. We are in another continent, with a diferent history. If the band do not sound like Genesis or Yes, it still can be progressive, audatious, ambitious and important to the development of the genre.

That was not what I meant GustavoSmile 
Hell you can find pages on the web that list Coldplay and U2 as prog. For an artist to get into prog related (which was the only thing I remarked on in my previous post) he or she has to have influenced prog rock in a tangible way, made their mark on the genre or in some way influenced it. Gismonti has probably influenced a lot of jazz musicians in his time but I honestly don't see the same in the prog world.

As for whether or not he is prog I'll leave that entirely up to the teams. I really have no say in this matter. 
My own take though is that he's been one of the most progressive and forward thinking musicians in Brazil, but I've never considered him prog. In that respect, he reminds me of Sun Ra. It is possible to make progressive music without it being prog.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2015 at 12:27
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

That was not what I meant GustavoSmile 
Hell you can find pages on the web that list Coldplay and U2 as prog. For an artist to get into prog related (which was the only thing I remarked on in my previous post) he or she has to have influenced prog rock in a tangible way, made their mark on the genre or in some way influenced it.


Well, I didnt pick it up any kind of link without checking the information. I think that I had brought valuable information for a good reflection on the subject. I didnt pick it up some thing as "U2 is prog". C'mon. I understand your analogy, but thats not what I did. Its like tou saw a lot of links and say "nah, its all crap". Did you even consideer my arguments?

Please, I am having an argument with you, but I'am angry or anything ok? Lets just try to build something here. Beer
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2015 at 12:48
Originally posted by GKR GKR wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

That was not what I meant GustavoSmile 
Hell you can find pages on the web that list Coldplay and U2 as prog. For an artist to get into prog related (which was the only thing I remarked on in my previous post) he or she has to have influenced prog rock in a tangible way, made their mark on the genre or in some way influenced it.


Well, I didnt pick it up any kind of link without checking the information. I think that I had brought valuable information for a good reflection on the subject. I didnt pick it up some thing as "U2 is prog". C'mon. I understand your analogy, but thats not what I did. Its like tou saw a lot of links and say "nah, its all crap". Did you even consideer my arguments?

Please, I am having an argument with you, but I'am angry or anything ok? Lets just try to build something here. Beer

I did consider your argument and I'm sorry if my previous post sounded rude. That was not my intent. If you can get a Special Collaborator to champion him for Prog Related, then by all means go for it (only SCs can suggest additions to Prog Related and Proto Prog)Smile 
You will however have to find someone other than me, cause while I am a big fan of Gismonti's and I love the two albums in question, I still don't feel he fits in on PA. Then again neither do many of my favourite artists like FSOL, Sun Ra and Pescado Rabioso.

Btw If the OP wants a specific team to look into this, it helps to include the subgenre in the thread titleWink


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2015 at 01:33
As an undoubtedly big format AND UNDOUBTEDLY INFLUENTIAL artist of Brazilian prog scene, Egberto Gismonti ought to be in the Prog Related department after being rejected by jazz rock / fusion team who perhaps didnt find in his music enough of rock riffs for the PA JR/F section - although it should be noted that the music of the Norwegian saxophonist Jan Garbarek and the U.S. band Oregon also not contain those rock riffs and both acts were gained much wider popularity as *ECM artists* but somehow those acts, unlike Gismonti, are already in JR/F - in fact there is not a valid excuse for the lack of Egberto Gismonti in the Prog Archives' Prog Related box.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Komandant Shamal - December 03 2015 at 01:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2015 at 18:53
Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

As an undoubtedly big format AND UNDOUBTEDLY INFLUENTIAL artist of Brazilian prog scene, Egberto Gismonti ought to be in the Prog Related department after being rejected by jazz rock / fusion team who perhaps didnt find in his music enough of rock riffs for the PA JR/F section - although it should be noted that the music of the Norwegian saxophonist Jan Garbarek and the U.S. band Oregon also not contain those rock riffs and both acts were gained much wider popularity as *ECM artists* but somehow those acts, unlike Gismonti, are already in JR/F - in fact there is not a valid excuse for the lack of Egberto Gismonti in the Prog Archives' Prog Related box.
 
 
 
 

Okay, wait just a second. Oregon is on PA and Gismonti isn't?

Enough is enough. An American band who makes world jazz music completely unrelated to prog get to be there, but a Brazilian who makes two great prog albums and makes a lot of other great progressive jazz/folk music (in the same "ECM" vibe as Oregon) doesn't. This strikes me as... sorry, but.... I can't even say it. Incoherence.

Jan Garbarek, ffs.. the guy recorded with Gismonti, and , once again, has much less with progressive music than Gismonti. He is actually a Gismonti fanboy. lol.

If it's true that it was the jazz/rock fusion team that rejected him, I totally understand, he has little to do with it, but what is Oregon doing under jazz/rock fusion?? Their most famous albums, from the 70's, have NOTHING of rock in them, NOTHING. Just.. nothing. Totally acoustic, world folk stuff, just like Gismonti. What is Garbarek doing there?? The fact that they put them and not Gismonti strikes me as a classic "ah, latin music... you know.... not rock" misunderstanding..  I wonder if it has something to do with the African-Brazilian rhythms, I have noticed through the years that it can be a barrier for foreigners, but I would like to hear the exact explanation from the people who rejected him, why Oregon and Jan Garbarek make it and he doesn't.

Listen to the two albums I recommended, listen to árvore, água e vinho, a dança das cabeças, o sol do meio dia, hell listen to the Egberto Gismonti Group albums from the early 90's. That guy deserves to be on PA much more than the aforementioned artists. Musically, and here I mean harmonically, compositionally, his music is much more progressive. Not to have him while having these other guys is, like I already said, incoherent. Sorry. I know I barely have written here in the 8 years I've been a member, but... it's.. injustice. And I know it's just a website, but it's about the principle.. 

Thanks for bringing this to light, Komandant Shamal!


Edited by rsinatra - December 03 2015 at 19:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2015 at 08:56
^ I am spending the last two days hearing only Egberto to get the feeling, and even his path through music is absurdly classical for brasilian progressive music, his late sixties albums almost Tropicalia, then more psychdelic and folk, then the classical... etc...

Yeah, I totally agree with Komandant Shamal and rsinatra.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2015 at 16:15
If a special collab wants to sponsor him for prog-related then fine, but the discussion about the differences between artists in JR/F subgenre won't change the team decision. Yes, bringing up the comparison can bring some artist to our attention as a reason for the suggestion but when checking and evaluating their body of work we don't really care much what kind of weird artists are already on the site that even the current team might disagree with (already added artists aren't deleted anyways, no matter the controversy it makes on the forum).

With that said, the members of the teams are changing all the time and they as well as the suggested bands are from all over the place so a bias towards Western artists doesn't hold the water. If anything has changed since the start of the site, there has been more attention given to rock artists rather than jazzier ones since very rarely does someone predominantly known as a jazz performer with a long career (Miles Davis, Jan Garbarek) get in these days (and the ones that are here were in itself controversial additions in their time). 
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