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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2017 at 10:16
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There is an old practice of folk singers in Britain singing unaccompanied without mics in the "old days" and perhaps that's what she was doing. And Ronnie J. Dio was an awesome powerhouse, if that's who you were refereing to.

Yes, THE Dio!!! Didn't know about this old practice though I can well imagine especially if old days mean the pre-mic years.  Makes sense if she kind of invoked it since she does have that folk influence in her singing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2017 at 10:22
Many old British folk clubs in the late 50's and very early 60's were not more the size of a tiny pub and did not need mics when the artists sang unaccompanied. The bigger ones obvioudly did. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2017 at 10:25
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Many old British folk clubs in the late 50's and very early 60's were not more the size of a tiny pub and did not need mics when the artists sang unaccompanied. The bigger ones obvioudly did. 

Yeah, in fact if the guitars aren't amped up, a good singer wouldn't need a mic to just sing over guitar or piano (just like classical singers, in essence).  The mic comes into the picture because the singer has to keep up with all the amplification around him/her.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2017 at 10:28
Exactly. As soon as the folk singer/guitarist boom came in soon after and the venues got much bigger, mics were a necessity.

Edited by SteveG - January 21 2017 at 10:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LTocher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2017 at 01:55
I somehow hadn't heard of this band in my prog adventures until I stumbled upon Scheherazade in an old record store... was kinda hooked instantly by the piano playing, and then managed t find most of their albums over the next few weeks for really cheap on vinyl. Superb band that I feel not enough people seem to know about
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2017 at 18:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

I grew up in Montreal, but they never became really big there, nor did they get a whole lot of airplay.  The only songs I remember hearing on the radio were Mother Russia and Midas Man.  They may have been slightly better known in Toronto and Ottawa.  Camera Camera got a lot of play in Ottawa at the time of release.  Interestingly, their most successful album on the Canadian charts was "A Song for all Seasons", reaching #45, which is about the same peak that Scheherazade and Novella hit in US.  But I'm not sure how much that Canadian chart was based on sales.

Did they ever play in Montreal?  You mentioned seeing them on the Camera Camera tour in your review IIRC.

yes they played in Feb 1977, and I'm pretty sure at least once before that, but I only saw the Feb 77 show.  That was the one where we had to wait in frigid (like -20C) temperatures for an eternity to get into the hall.  The band claimed there was a truck blocking their way into the hall, then proceeded to play for barely an hour, including virtually everything from Novella!.  I didn't know them well then, and I don't think the Novella material was easy for new fans.  I also didn't like the vocalise at that time, too young perhaps!  So I gave the band not another thought until I heard "Opening Out" on the radio about a year later, and became smitten for good.  Yes I saw them on the Camera Camera tour in Ottawa, which was a great show  They came back the next year to promote Time Line but I didn't go, not sure why, but might have had to do with the budget of a student!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2017 at 18:28
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Well, to put Renaissance's US 70's popularity in perspective, they seemed to be popular only in the following east coast states: NY, Connecticut, Pennsylvania and New Jersey. I was doing live sound work on the west coast (mainly California, which is as big a country in itself) and heard or saw little of the group there, and rarely heard anyone mention them, it seems. I know that they were also popular in the east coast of Canada. Montreal most likely.
 
Yup. They did do some shows West side I guess. Remember a show in Austin in 1976/77 being mentioned on their facebook page. But the band themselves admitted they didn't do enough shows outside the east coast.

I grew up in Montreal, but they never became really big there, nor did they get a whole lot of airplay.  The only songs I remember hearing on the radio were Mother Russia and Midas Man.  They may have been slightly better known in Toronto and Ottawa.  Camera Camera got a lot of play in Ottawa at the time of release.  Interestingly, their most successful album on the Canadian charts was "A Song for all Seasons", reaching #45, which is about the same peak that Scheherazade and Novella hit in US.  But I'm not sure how much that Canadian chart was based on sales.
Be as it may, but I think the bigger issue is why the group was not as popular in the UK as they were in the US. I don't have the stats, but I think that albums like Ashes Are Burning and Turn Of The Cards didn't even chart in the UK.

nothing charted in UK until A Song for all Seasons, and that only because of Northern Lights.  Unfortunately, that hit did not significantly increase the band's name recognition, even though it was top 10.  I suspect many who bought the album in the UK were new to the band, while almost everyone who bought ASFAS in the US were old fans!  While Azure D'Or did scrape the bottom of the top 75, it was a flop everywhere
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2017 at 23:50
Ken and I have often talked about Song for All Seasons, wondering why it doesn't get more love.  Well, one problem is the production.  I am listening to Ashes are Burning and Turn of the Cards on a good sound system today and the production is just beautiful.  Remember there is also a nostalgia element associated with listening to 70s prog TODAY.  Ashes/Cards just have that classic sound which evokes the 70s that most progheads would like to remember.  Song for All Seasons is crisp and punchy compared to their preceding albums but also has a commercial gloss which I guess turns off some people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2017 at 21:21
Just putting it out here, the DVD/CD package containing all of Ren's performances for BBC, including video of the Sight & Sound concert, is finally available. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2017 at 13:54
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Ken and I have often talked about Song for All Seasons, wondering why it doesn't get more love.  Well, one problem is the production.  I am listening to Ashes are Burning and Turn of the Cards on a good sound system today and the production is just beautiful.  Remember there is also a nostalgia element associated with listening to 70s prog TODAY.  Ashes/Cards just have that classic sound which evokes the 70s that most progheads would like to remember.  Song for All Seasons is crisp and punchy compared to their preceding albums but also has a commercial gloss which I guess turns off some people.
Sorry to keep getting sidetracked from this thread. Perhaps it just doesn't stand out for some reason. LOL Yes, ASFAS was given a comparatively big production budget and bringing in David Hentschel as producer was Sire/Warners idea to finally "break" the group. It did succeed on many levels, but as with all types of over production, it becomes a heavy weight to more complex songs. I think this is especially true with the album's title track, but Henschel's work was spot on for Northern Lights with Annie's triple tracked voice. I don't think anyone could have produced that song any better, and it was a well deserved top ten UK hit for the group.

Edited by SteveG - February 27 2017 at 13:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2017 at 17:26
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Ken and I have often talked about Song for All Seasons, wondering why it doesn't get more love.  Well, one problem is the production.  I am listening to Ashes are Burning and Turn of the Cards on a good sound system today and the production is just beautiful.  Remember there is also a nostalgia element associated with listening to 70s prog TODAY.  Ashes/Cards just have that classic sound which evokes the 70s that most progheads would like to remember.  Song for All Seasons is crisp and punchy compared to their preceding albums but also has a commercial gloss which I guess turns off some people.
Sorry to keep getting sidetracked from this thread. Perhaps it just doesn't stand out for some reason. LOL Yes, ASFAS was given a comparatively big production budget and bringing in David Hentschel as producer was Sire/Warners idea to finally "break" the group. It did succeed on many levels, but as with all types of over production, it becomes a heavy weight to more complex songs. I think this is especially true with the album's title track, but Henschel's work was spot on for Northern Lights with Annie's triple tracked voice. I don't think anyone could have produced that song any better, and it was a well deserved top ten UK hit for the group.

Agreed on both counts.  Yeah, I find I can't really hear the drums on the title track.  It's as if the sound is too trebly or something.  I don't remember who produced Novella but it doesn't have this problem.  Yeah, this kind of production was great for Northern Lights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2017 at 17:30
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Ken and I have often talked about Song for All Seasons, wondering why it doesn't get more love.  Well, one problem is the production.  I am listening to Ashes are Burning and Turn of the Cards on a good sound system today and the production is just beautiful.  Remember there is also a nostalgia element associated with listening to 70s prog TODAY.  Ashes/Cards just have that classic sound which evokes the 70s that most progheads would like to remember.  Song for All Seasons is crisp and punchy compared to their preceding albums but also has a commercial gloss which I guess turns off some people.
Sorry to keep getting sidetracked from this thread. Perhaps it just doesn't stand out for some reason. LOL Yes, ASFAS was given a comparatively big production budget and bringing in David Hentschel as producer was Sire/Warners idea to finally "break" the group. It did succeed on many levels, but as with all types of over production, it becomes a heavy weight to more complex songs. I think this is especially true with the album's title track, but Henschel's work was spot on for Northern Lights with Annie's triple tracked voice. I don't think anyone could have produced that song any better, and it was a well deserved top ten UK hit for the group.

Agreed on both counts.  Yeah, I find I can't really hear the drums on the title track.  It's as if the sound is too trebly or something.  I don't remember who produced Novella but it doesn't have this problem.  Yeah, this kind of production was great for Northern Lights.

I think it was a bold move all around that, for me, really worked, especially when comparing it to what the prog giants were doing in 1978.  Did it sow the seeds of their demise ultimately?  Perhaps.  I feel the production largely worked on ASFAS but flopped on Azure D'Or, but perhaps that was more because the compositions and arrangements on AD were IMO awful. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2017 at 15:19
Azure D'or was definitely a "dryer" album and the lack of orchestral accompaniment on songs like the "Floyd at Lyon" really made the album pale in comparison to ASFAS. It was not the band's finest hour on many levels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2017 at 15:25
^Oh, come off it. You probably sing Only Angels Have Wings in the shower.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2017 at 15:28
No, but I have heard it once while having a nightmare! My God, an absolutely dreadful song.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2017 at 07:18
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Azure D'or was definitely a "dryer" album and the lack of orchestral accompaniment on songs like the "Floyd at Lyon" really made the album pale in comparison to ASFAS. It was not the band's finest hour on many levels.

It was all round flat.  I think they were tired and needed a break. They got it soon thereafter but probably not the kind of break they appreciated. It's amazing how these bands used to churn out album after album and also toured like mad.  Nobody does that anymore.  I mean, the industry scenario is very different today but already by the noughties (pre-meltdown), the gap between albums had increased on average.  I have seen a couple of Ren's tour programs from the 70s.  Something like 23 dates in a single month.  Iron Maiden were still touring like that even in 2007/08 thereabouts. 

'Off topic':  Listening to Grandine Il Vinto off the Union Chapel concert DVD and Annie sings way better here than on the studio recording, which is positively weird (but has happened before).  The chorus is strong, not at all shaky and hesitating like it sounded on the recording (at least to me it did). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2017 at 07:36
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Azure D'or was definitely a "dryer" album and the lack of orchestral accompaniment on songs like the "Floyd at Lyon" really made the album pale in comparison to ASFAS. It was not the band's finest hour on many levels.

It was all round flat.  I think they were tired and needed a break. They got it soon thereafter but probably not the kind of break they appreciated. It's amazing how these bands used to churn out album after album and also toured like mad.  Nobody does that anymore.  I mean, the industry scenario is very different today but already by the noughties (pre-meltdown), the gap between albums had increased on average.  I have seen a couple of Ren's tour programs from the 70s.  Something like 23 dates in a single month.  Iron Maiden were still touring like that even in 2007/08 thereabouts. 

'Off topic':  Listening to Grandine Il Vinto off the Union Chapel concert DVD and Annie sings way better here than on the studio recording, which is positively weird (but has happened before).  The chorus is strong, not at all shaky and hesitating like it sounded on the recording (at least to me it did). 

I barely noticed the song "Grandine Il Vento" until I saw Renaissance live in maybe 2013 or 2014, when the performance blew me away.   It's a song made for the current Annie, and it really comes alive in the concert hall
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2017 at 07:44
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

'Off topic':  Listening to Grandine Il Vinto off the Union Chapel concert DVD and Annie sings way better here than on the studio recording, which is positively weird (but has happened before).  The chorus is strong, not at all shaky and hesitating like it sounded on the recording (at least to me it did). 

I barely noticed the song "Grandine Il Vento" until I saw Renaissance live in maybe 2013 or 2014, when the performance blew me away.   It's a song made for the current Annie, and it really comes alive in the concert hall

I got through Symphony of Light and Mystic as well and on these tracks too her singing is stellar.  It's a cliche anyway, but like on Mystic she doesn't slide her voice into that last big high note (a whopping D6 IIRC) and takes it flush with astounding power. You can see from the audience reaction that they too really loved it and kept clapping for a long time. 


Edited by rogerthat - March 03 2017 at 07:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2017 at 14:10
I just broke down and ordered "Union Chapel". I've put it off for too long. Perhaps I needed a break from the group after Michael Dunford passed away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2017 at 19:14
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I just broke down and ordered "Union Chapel". I've put it off for too long. Perhaps I needed a break from the group after Michael Dunford passed away.

Thumbs Up  Hope you will enjoy it.
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