American Politics the 2016 edition

The T wrote: Trump just said he likes Russia hacking Hillary's emails.  Trump just said he hopes the geo-political rival of the United States meddles in US internal politics  Trump just said he likes that Putin hacks the former Secretary of State of the US.  "Make America Great Again"  Yet the brilliant voters actually think he's the one always putting America first  Color blinds people.

Atavachron wrote: BTW Mike, love the pantsuits-- which is your favorite?; I quite like the medium greys on the far right, and that olive-phlegm green in the middle is rather nice.

ohh...  political fashion... near the tops of my favorite subjects.

I like red on Hillary...(the dark red thingie 3rd from left best)  I wanted her badly enough as it was.. but put her in red and my testosterone levels rise to the point of shooting all over the monitor..


Edited by micky - July 27 2016 at 14:22

LearsFool wrote: The T wrote: Trump just said he likes Russia hacking Hillary's emails.  Trump just said he hopes the geo-political rival of the United States meddles in US internal politics Trump just said he likes that Putin hacks the former Secretary of State of the US. "Make America Great Again" Yet the brilliant voters actually think he's the one always putting America first  Color blinds people. That was one hell of a press conference. Says all that, then pulls out the same "I KNOW NOTHING" line when asked about Putin that he did for David Duke, does some more Islamophobic slander, and even confuses Tim Kaine with Tom Kean.

I get the sarcasm in the context, so off on a tangent, but I don't think that truly brilliant voters would believe that either Trump or Clinton are likely to put America first rather than putting their own interests first. There are fanatics on both sides who give these people far too much trust.

I haven't heard Trump's speech, so I don't know the details of his slander, but as for the term Islamophobia, I find it ridiculously overused. I don't think it's irrational to worry about the threat of Islam (militant Islamists in particular, as well as potential militant Islamists), and it just makes anyone who is concerned about it sound irrational and xenophobic. It's akin to being called racist because you worry about taking on lots of people from parts of the world with a history of (including ongoing) significant terrorism. Such as being PC in general, such rhetoric can shut down frank discussion rather than enabling it.   I'd generally rather verified atheists or agnostics as immigrants, but of course they can a problem too, not that a huge many Trump supporters would support that position either as so many of them do have a pro-Christian bias even if their leader isn't really one.


Edited by Logan - July 27 2016 at 16:44

Sorry, I can't quote without walls of code that take forever to clean up. Don't worry about burning bridges with me, I enjoy discussing ideas provided it doesn't become a personal attack. I think my post was reasonable, and I don't think I used bad rhetoric.

I don't think I'm a hateful person, I'm sorry that you might think that about me for expressing my concern about over-usage of that word. I've also said that I think the word Prog is overused, but luckily no one implied that it was about me trying to cloak my fear and hatred. Maybe had I said that Progophobia is overused the reaction would have been quite different. "WTF you talking about?" most likely. But kidding aside, yes I am very concerned about militant Islamists, and what fear I have (though not so much a personal fear) is I believe rational. What's happened in Europe in particular has been very concerning to me.

Sorry, but I have problem with all sorts of Fundamentalism and radicalisms. I'm an agnostic/ atheist, so yes, part of me would rather live in a society of more like-minded people despite having many good friends who are religious or spiritual to some degree.

By potential militant Islamist I mean people who may not follow that ideology now, but there is a significant risk in the future. I think we need a lot of changes so that there is less opportunity or inclination for fantacism of all stripes (but that's a massive discussion in itself).

No one should paint all Muslims as a threat, nor treat all Muslims as the same. There are so many sects and varying degrees of belief within them, but religious society can be at odds with secularism. Sharia, for instance, does not fit well with Western law. I think most of us would rather a moderate Muslim over another type.

Not that it matters, but most of my friends are non-devout Muslims, my wife is a Christian (she was a Philippine Pentecostal when I met her), and please don't think I have a problem with all religious people even though I'm not personally one for such superstition.

I've spent a long time researching Islam, going so far as to read the Koran and Hadith, and I think I know rather more about the faith than most here.

I'm not sure what the answer is, it's very complex, but I do think that there is valid concern and some people who say anything negative about having large amounts of refugees from the Middle-East of a certain religion too often gets called Islamophobic or racist.

Trump lies about lots of things and I'm not supporting him, and he has indeed shown himself to be bigoted. I don't support or trust Clinton either, but that's okay, I can't vote in those elections anyway.

Sorry to backtrack.

When I said " the threat of Islam (militant Islamists in particular, as well as potential militant Islamists)", I meant the threat of Islam in particular being the militant Islamists, but Islam as a political movement, ideology and set of laws can be a threat. Islam means to submit to the will of Allah (as laid out in the Koran and illustrated in the Hadiths), and if you've read the Koran and Hadiths you'll know what that's about. Islam is not just a religion but a ideology which has been used very politically based on a set of laws called Sharia, which in a strict sense are considered the infallible laws of God. It's not easily compatible with secular society (calls for non-believers and homosexuals etc. being killed, but you find that kind of stuff in the Old Testamant too), but that doesn't mean that many people who call themselves Moslems are not compatible with secular society. There has been a significant movement in the West with Imams who have openly called for the implementation of strict Sharia and less openly now, Jihad. These are people, and they do have many followers, that believe that Islam will take over the world, and the Kafir (unbelievers) will be purged from the Earth. There are Christians that believe much the same same, but they don't have the same idea of Jihad as a responsibility of religion. Those fundamentalists one has to be very wary of. It's better to say Islamism is a threat than Islam.

I do think it's better bringing over the less religious ones if possible, but the poor and uneducated are often the most religious and need the most help.

Various Christian pastors cheered over the Orlando shootings, so Christianity can also be at odds with Western secular society.

I think one way to lessen the power of religious inculcation is to disallow, or at least stop funding/ susidizing religious schooling, and stop funding/subsidizing religious institutions. Make welfare harder to get maybe too so that people have less time to spend doing certain religious stuff (there was a famous Imam in London that was on welfare and other benefits while preaching hatred towards Britian and the West -- he called the welfare jizzya, which is a traditional Islamic tax that Christian and Jews had to pay to live in Moslem regions --a sort of protection money).

Anyway, the refugee crisis is a really tricky one. It's about balancing the safety of the citizens of a country with the need to help others, and of course there is a responsibility to help. I hope that the West can help to make their homes livable again, but in the meantime.... Shame most of the world is already occupied and we couldn't give them a new home. The adjustment to a new country isn't just hard on those who take them in, it's also hard on them.

Edited by Logan - July 27 2016 at 19:47

very touching and powerful speech by Biden as well.

Though Bloomberg did get me to catch my 2nd wind... rough day at work.. was starting to nod off even though I wanted to stay up to see the President's speech.

Wide awake now...

No problem, LearsFool, I agree with and am well aware of most of what you said, and I think we're going to end up just arguing semantics and clarifying (my fault since I started off with the semantics of Islamophobia). From my studies on Islam, I wouldn't call that a slander. No, I didn't mean to imply that it was ironclad as multiple sects and interpretations abound. Mea culpa for not explaining more clearly.

Ad for Bloomberg, just watched the speech. Was very good.

The DNC's just made out of great speakers this year! Never thought I'd be happy with something Bloomberg did, but that was quite the speech. Kaine did very, very well, and that's key when you're sandwiched between Biden and Obama.

The best speaker of them all (and a guy I'll miss so much in a few months) is on right now.

Fantastic. Just fantastic.