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ALotOfBottle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Englishness and English Phlegm in Prog
    Posted: May 02 2016 at 04:19
Hey gang!

The original progressive rock is definitely an English invention. Many bands have that undeniable English phlegm in their music. This could usually be traced to influence of English folk of the middle ages and renaissance, like in Gentle Giant, Gryphon, Spirogyra, Lindisfarne, Jethro Tull, Genesis, Comus, Strawbs, Caravan and many more. But it does not end just there. Also, lyrically, there is just something so English about In The Court Of The Crimson King (especially the title track). Even "Time" from Dark Side Of The Moon brings in a little bit of this Englishness with "...Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way...".

Anyway, I would be very thankful if you shared your thoughts and shared some bands that have that element in their music.

I'll kick it off with a few tracks.













Edited by ALotOfBottle - May 02 2016 at 04:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 04:25
England for me is :

The Kinks - Waterloo Sunset 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MqfF0WBsU

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 04:31
There is no such word as flegm in the English language. If you mean "phlegm", which is a mucous catarrh occasionally coughed up from the lungs, I can't recall hearing it on an album. ;-)

If you mean "phlegmatic", ie peaceful and relaxed, that's not solely an English trait. However, thanks for the post and I will look out for more coughing noises when listening to prog rock. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 04:43
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

There is no such word as flegm in the English language. If you mean "phlegm", which is a mucous catarrh occasionally coughed up from the lungs, I can't recall hearing it on an album. ;-)

If you mean "phlegmatic", ie peaceful and relaxed, that's not solely an English trait. However, thanks for the post and I will look out for more coughing noises when listening to prog rock. 


Yeah, sorry, wrong spelling, forgive me. What I meant by English Phlegm was the type of slowness and the reserve that the English stereotypically are said to have. That is in a way reflected in the music, sometimes.

Anyway, good luck finding coughing noises when listening to prog rock...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 05:12
The whole album (part 1 / part 2 / full power) is saturated with Englishness.
This song is an outstanding example Smile:

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 08:19
Hare hare supermarket. Hare Hare London Bus....
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 09:12
Most of the stuff I like has that quintessential Brit prog thing going on.....but one of my faves;
 
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 10:47
Can I just say, this is the first time I've heard Uncle Jack by Big Big Train, and it's genuinely like a breath of fresh spring air. Perfect for the weather right now. Thanks someone_else for making me stumble across it. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 10:56
I don't think prog rock as a whole reflects "Englishness", whatever that is, and I'm English. Spanish or French prog rock probably does the same in certain circumstances, but that's a function of nationality and not necessarily of prog rock. ;-)

By way of example, Dr Wu (thanks) has posted Bedside manners are extra. Another track by Greenslade is "Catalan", which..... sounds, er, Catalan. ;-)

However. This does it for me if you're thinking "Phlegm". ;-)




Edited by Davesax1965 - May 02 2016 at 10:59

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 12:20
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

I don't think prog rock as a whole reflects "Englishness", whatever that is, and I'm English. Spanish or French prog rock probably does the same in certain circumstances, but that's a function of nationality and not necessarily of prog rock. ;-)

By way of example, Dr Wu (thanks) has posted Bedside manners are extra. Another track by Greenslade is "Catalan", which..... sounds, er, Catalan. ;-)

However. This does it for me if you're thinking "Phlegm". ;-)



I think it does reflect Englishness and it might be naturally hard to observe this for you as a native. However, my little philosophy doesn't go far beyond prog's allusions to England's history and (musically) to English art music of the middle ages, renaissance and baroque as well as countryside plainsongs. The impact of those is evident on countless prog works, one of them being Selling England By The Pound by Genesis. I like how you said "that's a function of nationality and not necessarily of prog rock". That's a good point. Progressive Rock bands however (unlike many English bands of other genres) did make that much effort to allude to England's unique culture and history as well as English musical traditions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 14:28
Originally posted by ALotOfBottle ALotOfBottle wrote:

Anyway, good luck finding coughing noises when listening to prog rock...
Sorry, only some British-inspired American phlegm there.

/thread-derailing
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 15:24
A couple of lessor known ones:   Fantasy- Paint A Picture and Spring-st.
One of my favorite obscure Brit prog things....


One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 15:50
It is certainly a trait of nationalities generally rather than just an English/ British trait.. Ange are 'deeply'  French and most of the RPI bands are 'deeply' Italian.. and its that sense of national spirit (I don't mean Nationalist I mean the history of the land, people and 'sense of place' which is reflected in the music) that appeals to me. But yes there is deeply English or British 'Pastoral' progressive rock and for me bands like Stackridge, The incredible String band, Hatfield and the North, Matching Mole as well as bands like Caravan, Early Genesis and Barclay James Harvest and Procol Harum really express this.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2016 at 21:57
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

There is no such word as flegm in the English language. If you mean "phlegm", which is a mucous catarrh occasionally coughed up from the lungs, I can't recall hearing it on an album. ;-)

If you mean "phlegmatic", ie peaceful and relaxed, that's not solely an English trait. However, thanks for the post and I will look out for more coughing noises when listening to prog rock. 


Actually, I've heard Ian Anderson doing that phlegm thing on a few live albums, mostly I remember it from the Live at Montreux one, on Bourée and My God, if I remember correctly. Totally disgusting detail to add to those versions of the songs... though the performance of them are my very favourites on both songs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2016 at 00:30
Nik Kershaw said in an interview that whenever he write songs or plays guitar they always when hes not thinking about it channels englishness, pastoral, folksyness, like natualy even in gospel or jazz inspired riffs, that pastoral or even more sacred the feel of having anciant druids in your head.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2016 at 07:49
Well, what's "Englishness", really ? 

(Puh LEASE don't say "Britishness". Britain refers to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.)

I got a comment on here saying "Since you're English, you may not know what "Englishness" is all about. Which is slightly logically odd. 

The "Englishness" which prog rock tends to refer to is all about a vision of tea and scones and cricket, of long lazy summer days gone by. It's not got much to do with reality - you could argue that the Sex Pistols' God save the Queen was more indicative of what it was to be English in 1977.

If you all think we drink tea and live in castles, I'll have to instruct the butler to give you a damn good thrashing. ;-)

I'd actually contend that the sense of "English whimsy" referred to by a lot of prog rock sounds originated a few years earlier with psychedelia, notably Syd Barrett, early Floyd, etc. 

Next !!! Obviously a post on "Teutonia" where I refer to the Germans as being obsessed with sausages and oompah music. Obviously no Germans can point out that this is "not German" as they live there and are too close to the subject to be taken seriously. ;-) 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2016 at 09:11
There actually was a very short piece  in either Prog magazine or Mojo (a few years back) that listed their ten songs that epitomized that British feel in prog and rock ......Tull's- Living In The Past and Greenslades -Bedside Manners were both on the list.....sadly I cannot recall the other tracks. I think XTC's -Chalkhill's and Gardens was also on the list.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2016 at 10:38
British, he said British !!! ;-)

ENGLISH is
Pertaining to the single country of England

BRITISH is pertaining to four countries which form Great Britain - which are very different in character.

England
Scotland
Northern Ireland
Wales

Can we puh-lease get this basic fact right, folks ? ;-)

English national characteristics - allegedly tea, perversions, doffing hats to ladies. All live in draughty castles, everyone knows the Queen.
Scottish.... being careful with money, large orange beards, inedible cuisine, torture of musical instruments.
Wales - dourness, collection of sheep, coal mining, singing, playing harps
Northern Ireland - building ships and ... generally building ships. Speech impediments.

It may not seem important to outsiders, but it's like calling a Brazilian an American. :-)




Edited by Davesax1965 - May 03 2016 at 10:40

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ALotOfBottle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2016 at 10:50
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:


I got a comment on here saying "Since you're English, you may not know what "Englishness" is all about. Which is slightly logically odd.



That is not what I said, clearly not what i said.
I said:
"I think it does reflect Englishness and it might be naturally hard to observe this for you as a native."
What I meant was that you have got used to the Englishness and it is nothing special to you, just an everyday characteristic. I hope it's not logically odd now.

Anyway, this is clearly something that some people see, some don't. And that's all that is to it :)


Edited by ALotOfBottle - May 03 2016 at 10:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2016 at 10:52
Yeah, well you seem to think this reflects Englishness..... :-)





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