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Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2826
Posted: May 03 2016 at 10:53
Sorry to disappoint you, but this is what I and half the country grew up with. ;-)
But hey ho, there you go. As I think I mentioned, "whimsy". ;-) Yes, there is a "feel" of "something supposed to be English" on a lot of albums which were done by middle class kids from Public Schools in the late sixties. It's what England is supposed to be like.
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2826
Posted: May 03 2016 at 10:55
Which could lead to an interesting spinoff conversation, but probably won't. ;-)
Just to re-quote -
""I think it does reflect Englishness and it might be naturally hard to observe this for you as a native."
What I meant was that you have got used to the Englishness and it is nothing special to you, just an everyday characteristic. I hope it's not logically odd now. "
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2826
Posted: May 03 2016 at 11:05
In my, er, English view:
Prog rock tends to harken back to a romanticised and highly selective view of "Englishness" which probably echoes what was going on with a lot of music in the psychedelic era. Matter of fact, there was a BBC documentary on recently which hypothesised about that at great length.
I had no idea that this would, to be honest, be popular overseas. It certainly obviously didn't reflect real life here for the vast majority of the urban population.
There are some fantastic photos of life in the slums of Manchester here -
- that's basically my childhood, to be honest. Cricket on the village green it certainly wasn't.
I think it also goes some way to explaining the demise of prog rock here in the UK. Someone comes onstage wearing an elf cape and sings stuff which has increasingly less relevance to you when you're working a three day week and the electricity goes off most of the time due to strikes..........
Now, I'm not trying to ruin a thread here, I'm trying to inject an interesting spinoff. Yes, a lot of prog rock paints a picture of an England which never existed, or existed for a few people only. It harkens back to a near non-existent golden age. I think it's just as interesting to discuss *why* as to put examples of the genre up.
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20468
Posted: May 03 2016 at 11:07
English.....British....you say toematoe...I say tomato............
but I honestly don't recall what the article stressed but I'm betting it was 'English' ....pastoral styles and that whimsy found in the public schools and countryside.....but then not being 'English'.....I'm sure I'm missing the core theme anyway.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Prog rock tends to harken back to a romanticised and highly selective view of "Englishness" which probably echoes what was going on with a lot of music in the psychedelic era. Matter of fact, there was a BBC documentary on recently which hypothesised about that at great length.
I had no idea that this would, to be honest, be popular overseas. It certainly obviously didn't reflect real life here for the vast majority of the urban population.
There are some fantastic photos of life in the slums of Manchester here -
- that's basically my childhood, to be honest. Cricket on the village green it certainly wasn't.
I think it also goes some way to explaining the demise of prog rock here in the UK. Someone comes onstage wearing an elf cape and sings stuff which has increasingly less relevance to you when you're working a three day week and the electricity goes off most of the time due to strikes..........
Now, I'm not trying to ruin a thread here, I'm trying to inject an interesting spinoff. Yes, a lot of prog rock paints a picture of an England which never existed, or existed for a few people only. It harkens back to a near non-existent golden age. I think it's just as interesting to discuss *why* as to put examples of the genre up.
Obviously, good point. I am well aware of the big lower class in England. However, consider that progressive rock was born out of upper middle-class "Bohemian" intelligentsia usually with leftist political views from the southern parts of England (maybe with an exception of Jethro Tull and The Moodies). When I see the pictures you posted I think "punk". Because English society is very class-based, isn't it?
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Posted: May 03 2016 at 13:28
ALotOfBottle wrote:
Davesax1965 wrote:
I don't think prog rock as a whole reflects
"Englishness", whatever that is, and I'm English. Spanish or French prog
rock probably does the same in certain circumstances, but that's a
function of nationality and not necessarily of prog rock. ;-)
By
way of example, Dr Wu (thanks) has posted Bedside manners are extra.
Another track by Greenslade is "Catalan", which..... sounds, er,
Catalan. ;-)
However. This does it for me if you're thinking "Phlegm". ;-)
::snip <<video for Grantchester Meadows>> ::
I think it does reflect Englishness and it might be
naturally hard to observe this for you as a native. However, my little
philosophy doesn't go far beyond prog's allusions to England's history
and (musically) to English art music of the middle ages, renaissance and
baroque as well as countryside plainsongs. The impact of those is evident on countless prog works, one of them being Selling England By The Pound by
Genesis. I like how you said "that's a function of nationality and not
necessarily of prog rock". That's a good point. Progressive Rock bands
however (unlike many English bands of other genres) did make that much effort to allude to England's unique culture and history as well as English musical traditions.
Ah... but that's not what "phlegm" and "phlegmatic" means. I agree with Dave here and that's nothing to do with not being able to observe this in ourselves. English reserve is a façade that we construct from understatement and controlled sarcasm - natives can recognise the subtleties of this in each other that non-nationals misinterpret as unemotional stoicism. (For example the apparent laissez faire calm English response of "That's all right, don't worry about it" actually means the opposite :- "it is certainly not all right and if you don't apologise immediately then you'll soon be sorry..."). A nation that has been at war with practically every nation in the world (including ourselves) at some time in history can never be described as "peaceful and relaxed"
The phlegmatic stereotype of the English is not universal as not all nationalities see us that way. Originally it was attributed to us by easily excitable types (erm... like the Gauls) who lacked the self-control necessary to not make a public spectacle of showing their emotions. The English just see that kind of thing as impolite and rather unnecessary.
SEbtP is undeniably English but it cannot be phlegmatic, only something capable of having an emotional response can be phlegmatic (or choleric, sanguine or melancholic). The person who wrote the music can be phlegmatic but what they produce can have any emotion they care to impart it with.
Joined: August 09 2010
Location: West Country,UK
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Points: 3041
Posted: May 03 2016 at 14:07
Black Sabbath, Judas Priest and the rise of NWOBHM is as English as Genesis etc; Their background reflects the urban situation (and some extent that great English obsession, Class) from which the bands originated. Similar things were happening in Detroit and Dusseldorf..
Yes, a tough urban upbringing in Manchester is equally 'English' to growing up in Buckinghamshire or the Cotswolds or Devon in the 1960's.. but only equally.. not everyone who grew up in a more rural situation owned a castle, was posh or went to private schools! life in the sticks could be pretty grim too if you were a farmworker in a tied cottage suddenly made unemployed and homeless! But yes there was pigeons cooing in the horse chestnut trees and cricket on the green but there was still deprivation and poverty..
Again, just as many people found reassurance, solace and escape in elements of progressive rock in the early mid 70's during the power cuts and three day weeks as rejected it and pushed towards a more political 'keep it real' stance with punk. Neither were right or wrong as it turned out; just the two sides of the same coin.
Every country (certainly every European country) has its own music which reflects this mix of urban and rural, political realism and mystical, pastoral whimsy which reflects its own history and social/ ethnic mixes. Go and explore and enjoy- England, Britain.. its just a very small part of something much bigger.
Joined: August 09 2010
Location: West Country,UK
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Points: 3041
Posted: May 03 2016 at 15:33
Quote 'For example the apparent laissez faire calm English response of "That's all right, don't worry about it" actually means the opposite :- "it is certainly not all right and if you don't apologise immediately then you'll soon be sorry...' Winky face emoticon..
Joined: September 30 2006
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Posted: May 03 2016 at 18:00
Davesax1965 wrote:
English.... British...... believe me, it is seen as being important here.
It's like me calling someone from, say, Texas a "Yank." That'd go down well. I don't think. ;-)
Similarly, call a Scotsman "English", see what happens. ;-)
Welllll... sort of.
A Texan is certainly not a Yank but most certainly is an American and would readily become a nationalistic patriot at the first sign of trouble unless the trouble was coming from the Federal government at Texas. A Scot is most certainly not English (which, by the way, I think most people get), and would take issue with that in the same way a Texan might jeer New York City or Abraham Lincoln, but technically is a Brit and I'm guessing would defend his little "British" island against any and all comers.
They are Scots, after all, and love a good fight.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Points: 37575
Posted: May 03 2016 at 18:43
...anyway...
Perfectly quintessential unphlegmatic Englishnessnessness from the third (or possibly fourth, *shrug*) most well-known English Progressive Rock band you've possibly never heard of:
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
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Points: 34050
Posted: May 03 2016 at 18:59
What is the difference between the suffixes of esque as i Beatleesque and ian Pink Floydian (Floydian) and ness Englishness or Frenchness, why is it not Beatleian or Floydesque, what differences the value of esque and ian, imo music can both be Floydian and Floydesque but not Floydness?
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Posted: May 03 2016 at 20:04
Icarium wrote:
What is the difference between the suffixes of esque as i Beatleesque and ian Pink Floydian (Floydian) and ness Englishness or Frenchness, why is it not Beatleian or Floydesque, what differences the value of esque and ian, imo music can both be Floydian and Floydesque but not Floydness?
-ness is "the state or quality of being" ... added to an adjective to form a noun
-esque is "in the style of" ... added to an noun to form an adjective
-ian is "related or belonging to or originating from" ... added to a noun to form an adjective
-ic is "of or pertaining to" ... added to nouns to form adjectives
-ish is "similar to" "or associated with" ... added to nouns or adjectives to form adjectives or nouns
So Floydian and Floydesque are perfectly correct as Floyd is a noun and the resulting word is an adjective (describing word). Floydnesss is incorrect because Floyd is not an adjective. [I guess you could say Floydianness... if you really must]
(...I know what you are thinking...) English is a noun so why is Englishness not incorrect. Here 'English" is used as an adjective that means "of or pertaining to England, its inhabitants" ...
As to why Beatlesque and not Beatleian - that's simply a matter of what sounds best or is easiest to say (I think that Floyd-esque is possibly used more that Floydian).
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Englishness and English Phlegm in Prog
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Davesax1965 wrote:
