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amadeusdeity 
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 Topic: Prog, tech, jazz fusion confusion
Posted: July 27 2016 at 18:08 |
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I'm really starting to get into the progressive rock and metal scene and discovering awesome masterminds like Death, Cynic, Yes, King Crimson, Mastodon Atheist, Opeth, and the list goes on. But one thing that keeps buggling me when I read about all these groups is that they're all labeled with these weird genres, that, to me, just seem like several names for the same concept of genre.
The genres in question are:
progressive
technical
jazz fusion
experimental
and there are probably other genres pointing towards the same thing.
What I want to know is, what is the difference between all these genres or concepts, if you will. How do I determine if something is progressive or technical or whatever. I mean, sure I can listen to something and immediately notice, that it's experimental and 'different'. I've read about all these genres on multiple websites, and they all essentially boil down to the same exact thing; that they're 'different'. Not really pinpointing certain things in each genre. They all have weird time signatures, they all write longer songs with deeper meanings and stuff, they all have songs with complex structure.
I feel like I'm walking through a mist here, help me out.
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Atavachron
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Posted: July 27 2016 at 18:30 |
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Yeah it's a excellent question. Progressive tends to be technical which tends to involve fusion and sometimes experimental. And 'different' from normal popular music it is.
I think these terms crop-up gradually over time from one new era to another, us fans and journalists trying to keep up with an emerging "Tech-extreme" movement or a trend toward "jazz metal" and needing language to distinguish what's different about new generations of high-performance rock music. Keep in mind what's important is the distinguishing musical feature, or what should be that feature, in a certain style, band or album. If something is labelled 'jazz' or 'jazz fusion', it should involve some improvisation; some amount of spontaneous music should appear. On the other hand, 'jazz metal' may be more metal than jazz and might only feature a tiny amount of improvised performing, and 'tech jazz metal' almost none at all.
You'll get a better sense of things as time progresses.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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BunBun
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Posted: July 27 2016 at 18:51 |
You know, I'm no expert and you bring up a lot of good points. I myself have only been listening to progressive rock for about 4 or so years now, but I feel like I am gaining knowledge of the genre. Anyways, I'll just explain things from my point of view and others with more knowledge can do a much better job down the road. Progressive seems to describe how the music is maybe treading new ground. For instance, King Crimson's In the Court of the Crimson King is a progressive album as well as their Discipline album because the music was trying to do something new. Honestly, I don't know if any music today can be truly progressive because just about everything that can be done is rock seems to have already been achieved. If it is progressive, it seems like it would become something other than rock or any of its various sub-genres. Though, I don't have a vast knowledge of modern prog since I enjoy "retro" prog groups, so I'm sure someone else can expand on this. Technical, now I'm not too familiar with this term. I'm not into metal, so I tend to avoid the genre in general. My brother loves metal, it's all he listens to. Therefore, I haven't listened to any Tech-extreme Metal, so I'll let someone else chime in. Jazz Fusion is essentially jazz used in a rock context. Now, many prog groups incorporate jazz into their music, but that isn't a main concern of theirs. Prog groups incorporate world music, jazz, classical, folk, etc. into their music but subgenres exist like jazz fusion, indo-prog, prog folk, etc. because they describe bands who maybe incorporate a lot of a specific said genre in their music. Okay, I feel like I'm not making much sense now. Back to Fusion, there is an obvious strong emphasis on jazz, their is improvisation, it can feel spontaneous at times. Sometimes you will find artists who are listed in a certain sub-genre but they might of made an album that was a different genre. Area is listed in the Rock Progressive Italiano sub-genre but they are a jazz fusion group. Zappa made a few jazz fusion albums. Experimental. Well, all prog groups are experimental to an extent. However, experimental seems to be more about how avant-garde the music is. Yet, being experimental can maybe mean they are progressive as well. That's another thing progressive and prog are not always the same thing. Glass Hammer and The Flower Kings are prog groups, no doubt, but they aren't progressive nor experimental because they are treading new ground. Anyways, its confusing, I'm getting confused typing this. I hope this helped somewhat, or maybe I'm just you and me both more confused 
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Easy Money
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Posted: July 27 2016 at 20:19 |
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progressive - no two people can agree on what this term means, I quit using this word a long time ago.
technical - this is music that needs to be rehearsed a lot before it is presented on stage.
jazz fusion - this is what rock musicians think jazz sounds like, but they are no where close.
experimental - this is music played by people whose skills are not developed enough, or their nature is too stubborn, to play real songs, so they use their creative imagination and noodle about as best they can.
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Atavachron
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Posted: July 27 2016 at 20:28 |
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^ Pretty much -
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Terrapin Station
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 06:09 |
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progressive - departs from the norms of a particular genre, especially structural norms (re more coarse-grained song structure, or at least arrangement structure), but also melodic, harmonic, etc. structural departures are common.
technical - as a genre term, it's typically only used with metal, especially death metal. It just refers to music with a focus on technique a la the traditional understanding of technique. So things like speed with precision, more exotic and complex scales/modes, very complex and quickly changing phrasing, rhythms and time signatures, anything that's relatively difficult to play on the instruments in question/things that require an unusual amount of practice/woodshedding/physical conditioning to play.
jazz fusion - jazz fusion is the "same idea" as progressive rock--so deviations from typical song structures and so on, as well as often melding other genres with the parent genre--only where the musicians are grounded in and using as their departure point jazz rather than rock. In other words, progressive rock and jazz fusion are two sides of the same coin--there's a rock side and a jazz side.
experimental - think of literally experimenting in a "let's see what happens when we do this" sense, where you don't know if something is going to work very well, but it's worth a try just to see what it turns out like. So basically it's pursuing ideas that are highly unusual and kind of risky relative to norms. In practice, "experimental" doesn't have to refer to literally experimenting in that way, but it's at least music that sounds like that was the approach because it's so relatively odd in some respects. One very common thing in experimental music is that it takes an approach of "deconstructing" conventional ways of making music and tries to reinvent them. That can amount to playing an instrument in some highly unusual way--either technique-wise or in terms of the normal sorts of figures played on that instrument or its normal role in a musical context, or it can involve deconstructing and reconstructing composition overall--radical approaches to melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, etc. content, including even discarding some or all of those things as much as possible, utilizing "noise" instead, etc.
Edited by Terrapin Station - July 28 2016 at 06:20
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Mascodagama
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 06:35 |
 js (Easy Money) wrote:
jazz fusion - this is what rock musicians think jazz sounds like, but they are no where close.
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Funny, but mean!
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WeepingElf
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 09:56 |
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Let me toss my coins into this melee.
Progressive, short form prog, as a designation for a subgenre of rock music has acquired an idiomatic meaning which is more specific than just "music that progresses in some way". It is defined by being part of a particular stream of tradition that began with such British bands as The Moody Blues and Procol Harum and then Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Pink Floyd and others. What is characteristic of prog is that it uses complex, multi-part musical structures. Also, it is for the most part characterized by a progressive mindset involving belief in the good in the human race and the attainability of a better future.
There is another usage of the adjective "progressive", also abbreviated as "prog", in electronic dance music, which has nothing to do with this and is hardly used any time with reference to rock music.
Technical (or tech) is used almost exclusively in extreme metal for music that requires extraordinary playing skills from the musicians. The boundary between prog metal and tech metal is fuzzy, and often tech metal is called "prog metal". The difference between prog metal and tech metal is twofold: 1. Tech metal usually does not share the progressive mindset of prog but tends to be characterized by the misanthropic, cynical mindset typical of extreme metal in general. 2. The advanced musicianship of tech metal tends to reduce to mindnumbingly fast passagework rather than complex formal structures, but this cannot be generalized.
Jazz fusion perhaps has the most clearly defined meaning of the terms discussed in this thread. Jazz fusion is music which fuses (modern) jazz with something else, usually some kind of rock music. Of course, this delegates the question to defining "jazz".
Experimental is a very broad term that refers to music that "tries something out", but is often hyperbolically used for something that doesn't fit anywhere else or is simply not up to be classified as anything else. I have heard so-called "experimental" music which was simply bad musicianship; there are countless untalented charlatans who use the "anything goes" approach of modern art as an excuse for throwing out stuff without style or substance. That doesn't mean that there isn't good experimental music, of course.
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Man With Hat
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 10:07 |
Terrapin Station wrote:
progressive - departs from the norms of a particular genre, especially structural norms (re more coarse-grained song structure, or at least arrangement structure), but also melodic, harmonic, etc. structural departures are common.
technical - as a genre term, it's typically only used with metal, especially death metal. It just refers to music with a focus on technique a la the traditional understanding of technique. So things like speed with precision, more exotic and complex scales/modes, very complex and quickly changing phrasing, rhythms and time signatures, anything that's relatively difficult to play on the instruments in question/things that require an unusual amount of practice/woodshedding/physical conditioning to play.
jazz fusion - jazz fusion is the "same idea" as progressive rock--so deviations from typical song structures and so on, as well as often melding other genres with the parent genre--only where the musicians are grounded in and using as their departure point jazz rather than rock. In other words, progressive rock and jazz fusion are two sides of the same coin--there's a rock side and a jazz side.
experimental - think of literally experimenting in a "let's see what happens when we do this" sense, where you don't know if something is going to work very well, but it's worth a try just to see what it turns out like. So basically it's pursuing ideas that are highly unusual and kind of risky relative to norms. In practice, "experimental" doesn't have to refer to literally experimenting in that way, but it's at least music that sounds like that was the approach because it's so relatively odd in some respects. One very common thing in experimental music is that it takes an approach of "deconstructing" conventional ways of making music and tries to reinvent them. That can amount to playing an instrument in some highly unusual way--either technique-wise or in terms of the normal sorts of figures played on that instrument or its normal role in a musical context, or it can involve deconstructing and reconstructing composition overall--radical approaches to melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, etc. content, including even discarding some or all of those things as much as possible, utilizing "noise" instead, etc.
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This is pretty much what I would have said (albeit much more coherently). (As an aside I would disagree slightly with the jazz-fusion bit...but it's mostly me being pedantic.  )
Also, progressive, technical, and experimental aren't really genres, they are descriptive words that can be added infront of different types of music.
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aglasshouse
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 10:31 |
js (Easy Money) wrote:
experimental - this is music played by people whose skills are not developed enough, or their nature is too stubborn, to play real songs, so they use their creative imagination and noodle about as best they can. |
I agree with this as a definition of "avant-garde". 'Experimental' tends to have skilled musicians playing weird stuff.
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Manuel
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 12:06 |
A lot of good opinions and concepts being toss around here; I like it. I gave up trying to label music long time ago, finally deciding that if I like it' l"ll listen to it, either is considered prog, progressive, fusion or whatever. I personally believe there are two kinds of music; music to dance to (this would include most of the popular music), which mainly consists of a very catchy tune and a nice beat to dance to, and music to listen to (prog would be in this category), which is the music that's been written with more elaborate concepts and intentions, well orchestrated and instrumented, a deeper meaning/message, and which is not necessarily meant for all people, since the vast majority of the public are not interested in spending their time trying to figure our what the artists are attempting to say. That makes it easier for me, and easier to explain to others when they hear what I'm listening to and ask "what in the world is that?"
Edited by Manuel - July 28 2016 at 12:08
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WeepingElf
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 13:40 |
aglasshouse wrote:
js (Easy Money) wrote:
experimental - this is music played by people whose skills are not developed enough, or their nature is too stubborn, to play real songs, so they use their creative imagination and noodle about as best they can. |
I agree with this as a definition of "avant-garde". 'Experimental' tends to have skilled musicians playing weird stuff. |
I think js was just facetious.
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SteveG
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 14:17 |
js (Easy Money) wrote:
jazz fusion - this is what rock musicians think jazz sounds like, but they are no where close.
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Sad but true. 
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SteveG
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 14:32 |
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Listening to these genres is better than definitions.
Prog: album-King Crimson: In The Court of the Crimson King.
Tech: album-Death: Human
Jazz fusion: album-Mahavishnu Orchestra: Birds of Fire
Experimental: album-Tool: Lateralus.
Check these others out if you can and go from there. I know you've heard Death.
PA has great listing on these genres and sub genres.
Edited by SteveG - July 28 2016 at 15:27
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Easy Money
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 18:54 |
WeepingElf wrote:
aglasshouse wrote:
js (Easy Money) wrote:
experimental - this is music played by people whose skills are not developed enough, or their nature is too stubborn, to play real songs, so they use their creative imagination and noodle about as best they can. |
I agree with this as a definition of "avant-garde". 'Experimental' tends to have skilled musicians playing weird stuff. |
I think js was just facetious.
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True, my record collection features plenty of "experimental", and "avant-garde" music. 
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BunBun
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 18:59 |
js (Easy Money) wrote:
jazz fusion - this is what rock musicians think jazz sounds like, but they are no where close. |
I guess I get that, it seems like many people who are into jazz aren't huge fans of fusion. However, the jazz fusion I have heard, I really dig lol. Go figure, don't like jazz but love fusion
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Easy Money
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 19:05 |
BunBun wrote:
js (Easy Money) wrote:
jazz fusion - this is what rock musicians think jazz sounds like, but they are no where close. |
I guess I get that, it seems like many people who are into jazz aren't huge fans of fusion. However, the jazz fusion I have heard, I really dig lol. Go figure, don't like jazz but love fusion
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I actually like both, but they are quite different to me.
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BunBun
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Posted: July 28 2016 at 20:07 |
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^ They are definitely different, but, who knows, given time, I might gradually get into.
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thwok
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Posted: July 29 2016 at 05:09 |
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I can answer that in 25 words or less. Simply read the Prog Rock Guides section and listen to the bands suggested.
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amadeusdeity
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Posted: July 29 2016 at 20:30 |
SteveG wrote:
Listening to these genres is better than definitions.
Prog: album-King Crimson: In The Court of the Crimson King.
Tech: album-Death: Human
Jazz fusion: album-Mahavishnu Orchestra: Birds of Fire
Experimental: album-Tool: Lateralus.
Check these others out if you can and go from there. I know you've heard Death.
PA has great listing on these genres and sub genres.
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I know all of them except Mahavishnu, but damn that's nice
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Prog, tech, jazz fusion confusion