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Joined: April 11 2014
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Topic: The American Political System: Can It Be Fixed? Posted: August 27 2016 at 12:54
In a past secondary discussion with both Lazland and Dean, I mistakenly dismissed their claims that the problems of the American political system could be fixed by replacing the current system. They are without a doubt two of PA's most intelligent members and deserve to heard out and considered, along with many astute others.
My post is a simple question that requires complex answers: Do you feel that the American political system is broken, ans if so, how would you fix?
Joined: January 26 2008
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Posted: August 27 2016 at 15:37
If a 3rd party candidate can't succeed in a year when the other options are Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump then I'd have to say "no". The government run education system and media have too much of a vested interest in continuing to make sure the citizenry are just a bunch of obedient lever pullers.... whether they be pulling that lever for the authoritarians on the red team or the ones on the blue team.
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Posted: August 27 2016 at 17:19
What would the definition of 'fixed' be in your mind? Trump and Bernie have both argued (from different vantage points) that the American political system is already 'fixed' and that's what's wrong with it.
If you mean can our representative government be reformed so that our elected officials serve the will and interests of the majority (or at least their respective constituents), then I would say no. Unfortunately the wealthy, powerful and self-serving (not necessarily the same people, to be fair) will always find ways to exert a disproportionate level of influence over any political system, and will always benefit disproportionately. Every political and social system in history has been this way and there's nothing magical about ours that makes it any different. A bit more tolerable maybe, but that's about all.
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 08:20
Yeah.. can't agree with the basic premise. It isn't our political system that is broken..
it is the country.
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.
Edited by micky - August 28 2016 at 08:21
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 18:19
micky wrote:
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.
How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:00
A Person wrote:
micky wrote:
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.
How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
For starters, the winner takes all format of the Electoral College is problematic. It means a party can game the system by winning a few big states, taking them much closer to 270 than the other. Yes, apportioning college votes proportionally may make the chance of a hung verdict greater, but that is a risk worth taking because it shows the people don't like either candidate enough (something that is probably true of this election) and would convey to both parties that they need to work harder to find appropriate candidates.
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:11
In fact, adding to the above point, here's an African-American voter (around 8:00) saying she MAY have thought of a Republican candidate if he/she had been a moderate rather than Trump. A Muslim, Farah Imam, also feels conflicted between Trump and Clinton (astounding, given all the things he's said about Muslims!). Should a president simply be picked out of candidates whom too many people dislike?
On another note, I wonder why people never talk about PBS coverage very much because at least to an outsider like me, it sounds balanced and sincere (I mean, taking the effort to listen to people's views and draw conclusions from that rather than hoisting propaganda on people). Or maybe I am just a naive outsider!
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:15
A Person wrote:
micky wrote:
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.
How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
ask the GOP if they control the system. The voters can.. and did this year... show who really is control. That is the one bright spot.. other than well.. guarantied Clinton 4 years in the White House hahaha... of the rise of Trump and the alt-Right. That is not the 'system' ... that is the voter expressing their latent power no matter how many millions the establishment has or who they want.
Still upset over Bernie? Fact is more Democrats voted for Clinton than Bernie and had more delegates even before establishment super-delegates came into play. It was democracy in action. It was not rigged... nor stolen. The voters decide...
sure it is easy to sit back and blame the system for the failure of the voters to demand that the people they elect actually ..well... haha.. you know. DO SOMETHING other than throw tantrums when they can't get their way ..get rich while in office .... perhaps doing things like .. ummm.. you know... provide funding for fighting Zika before taking the summer off.
sorry man.. blaming the system for what voters have the power to fix by voting out those that do not do their job is rubbish and far too easy..and speaks to the general ignorance and apathy of the American electorate...
thus the mess we have. The problem isn't the system..that is the childish answer... it is the voters or more to the point. A subset of the population that votes based on misinformation.. ignorance of issues.. and general partisan identification. Thus empowering what is truly broken. Not our political system, but one of the two major parties that does nothing but exist to deny the other parties attempts to fix real problems in this country. Misguided or not.. at least one side is actually trying to fix the real problems we have... not pyring into ones personal lives in order to perserve 'christian' values or to makes ones goddamn bathroom experience less threatening hahaha
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:20
rogerthat wrote:
A Person wrote:
micky wrote:
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.
How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
For starters, the winner takes all format of the Electoral College is problematic. It means a party can game the system by winning a few big states, taking them much closer to 270 than the other. Yes, apportioning college votes proportionally may make the chance of a hung verdict greater, but that is a risk worth taking because it shows the people don't like either candidate enough (something that is probably true of this election) and would convey to both parties that they need to work harder to find appropriate candidates.
those founding fathers were some smart dudes.. why was the Electoral College implemented?
Have things really changed since then... see the 40% of the this country that are likely to vote for someone with severe disqualifiying mental disorder... ZERO experience and not even qualfifed to be elected city dog catcher. Oh... and a captain of business... that couldn't even make money running a casino...
It is the final defense against a ignorant and uniformed electorate. One would like to think we have progressed past needing the E.C... to me.. it sure doesn't look like we have.
Edited by micky - August 28 2016 at 20:21
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Joined: September 30 2006
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:22
micky wrote:
A Person wrote:
micky wrote:
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.
How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
ask the GOP if they control the system. The voters can.. and did this year... show who really is control. That is the one bright spot.. other than well.. guarantied Clinton 4 years in the White House hahaha... of the rise of Trump and the alt-Right. That is not the 'system' ... that is the voter expressing their latent power no matter how many millions the establishment has or who they want.
Hear, hear! Was about to say the same. As in life, you earn what you truly have, you own it. These people work for us and we damn well better hire, fire, and discipline all of 'em for any reason whatsoever because that's our part of the deal.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:30
micky wrote:
those founding fathers were some smart dudes.. why was the Electoral College implemented?
Have things really changed since then... see the 40% of the this country that are likely to vote for someone with severe disqualifiying mental disorder... ZERO experience and not even qualfifed to be elected city dog catcher. Oh... and a captain of business... that couldn't even make money running a casino...
It is the final defense against a ignorant and uniformed electorate. One would like to think we have progressed past needing the E.C... to me.. it sure doesn't look like we have.
So, in effect, in spite of Trump's low ratings on what do you call it approval/likability, you fear he would win in a no holds barred race. Seriously, Micky, it pains me to see that in the world's oldest democracy, the politicians don't trust the voters. We did that here from day 1. You can say, "Well, look where that got you" but our system not being so elitist was an antidote against completely neglecting the poor and the downtrodden. Everyone should have a voice. If you really are a democracy, you have to listen to everyone, including the most racist and bigoted of them. Suppressing the will of the people for too long will only have repercussions in the end. Or maybe it won't because I suspect the US is ultimately a CIA state.
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:32
micky wrote:
A Person wrote:
micky wrote:
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.
How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
ask the GOP if they control the system. The voters can.. and did this year... show who really is control. That is the one bright spot.. other than well.. guarantied Clinton 4 years in the White House hahaha... of the rise of Trump and the alt-Right. That is not the 'system' ... that is the voter expressing their latent power no matter how many millions the establishment has or who they want.
Still upset over Bernie? Fact is more Democrats voted for Clinton than Bernie and had more delegates even before establishment super-delegates came into play. It was democracy in action. It was not rigged... nor stolen. The voters decide...
sure it is easy to sit back and blame the system for the failure of the voters to demand that the people they elect actually ..well... haha.. you know. DO SOMETHING other than throw tantrums when they can't get their way ..get rich while in office .... perhaps doing things like .. ummm.. you know... provide funding for fighting Zika before taking the summer off.
sorry man.. blaming the system for what voters have the power to fix by voting out those that do not do their job is rubbish and far too easy..and speaks to the general ignorance and apathy of the American electorate...
thus the mess we have. The problem isn't the system..that is the childish answer... it is the voters or more to the point. A subset of the population that votes based on misinformation.. ignorance of issues.. and general partisan identification. Thus empowering what is truly broken. Not our political system, but one of the two major parties that does nothing but exist to deny the other parties attempts to fix real problems in this country. Misguided or not.. at least one side is actually trying to fix the real problems we have... not pyring into ones personal lives in order to perserve 'christian' values or to makes ones goddamn bathroom experience less threatening hahaha
Do you seriously think the general public actually wields political power?
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:38
micky wrote:
@ David
that is the way you would hope it would be... but in today's hyper-partisan political world where you hear people say..
my God the Republican Party has gone apesh*t.. Trump is a disaster waiting to happen...but you know... I just can't vote for a Democrat.
you see that which is what is broken.. it isn't the system.. it is the voter.
Of course it's the voter, that was my point. It always has been and will be the voter, it's just that the truth is unpleasant.
On the other hand if people like a Nixon or a Reagan or even a Trump, that is their independent choice. So be it. You get what you ask for. Oh yes indeed.
Edited by Atavachron - August 28 2016 at 20:40
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:39
rogerthat wrote:
micky wrote:
those founding fathers were some smart dudes.. why was the Electoral College implemented?
Have things really changed since then... see the 40% of the this country that are likely to vote for someone with severe disqualifiying mental disorder... ZERO experience and not even qualfifed to be elected city dog catcher. Oh... and a captain of business... that couldn't even make money running a casino...
It is the final defense against a ignorant and uniformed electorate. One would like to think we have progressed past needing the E.C... to me.. it sure doesn't look like we have.
So, in effect, in spite of Trump's low ratings on what do you call it approval/likability, you fear he would win in a no holds barred race. Seriously, Micky, it pains me to see that in the world's oldest democracy, the politicians don't trust the voters. We did that here from day 1. You can say, "Well, look where that got you" but our system not being so elitist was an antidote against completely neglecting the poor and the downtrodden. Everyone should have a voice. If you really are a democracy, you have to listen to everyone, including the most racist and bigoted of them. Suppressing the will of the people for too long will only have repercussions in the end. Or maybe it won't because I suspect the US is ultimately a CIA state.
of course I would fear he could win.. not an electoral college win. The deck is stacked in the Democrats favor... thanks to the Republican Party not caring one bit for anything other than appealing to Nativists, bigots, racists, Fundies, and the politically ignorant/uniformed.
however take out the E.C... all bets are off.... it is a safeguard against the ignorance of the voter. The Founding Fathers saw it then..and 200 odd years later.. it is still around.
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:44
Atavachron wrote:
micky wrote:
@ David
that is the way you would hope it would be... but in today's hyper-partisan political world where you hear people say..
my God the Republican Party has gone apesh*t.. Trump is a disaster waiting to happen...but you know... I just can't vote for a Democrat.
you see that which is what is broken.. it isn't the system.. it is the voter.
Of course it's the voter, that was my point. It always has been and will be the voter, it's just that the truth is unpleasant.
On the other hand if people like a Nixon or a Reagan or even a Trump, that is their independent choice. So be it. You get what you ask for. Oh yes indeed.
it is an unpleasant truth.. as it the necessity in foresight perhaps till this particular election 200+ years later hahaha.. of the Electoral College. It was put there to protect this country just for cases like 2016 for voters, their candidates... and major parties like we have in 2016.
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:45
A Person wrote:
micky wrote:
A Person wrote:
micky wrote:
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.
How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
ask the GOP if they control the system. The voters can.. and did this year... show who really is control. That is the one bright spot.. other than well.. guarantied Clinton 4 years in the White House hahaha... of the rise of Trump and the alt-Right. That is not the 'system' ... that is the voter expressing their latent power no matter how many millions the establishment has or who they want.
Still upset over Bernie? Fact is more Democrats voted for Clinton than Bernie and had more delegates even before establishment super-delegates came into play. It was democracy in action. It was not rigged... nor stolen. The voters decide...
sure it is easy to sit back and blame the system for the failure of the voters to demand that the people they elect actually ..well... haha.. you know. DO SOMETHING other than throw tantrums when they can't get their way ..get rich while in office .... perhaps doing things like .. ummm.. you know... provide funding for fighting Zika before taking the summer off.
sorry man.. blaming the system for what voters have the power to fix by voting out those that do not do their job is rubbish and far too easy..and speaks to the general ignorance and apathy of the American electorate...
thus the mess we have. The problem isn't the system..that is the childish answer... it is the voters or more to the point. A subset of the population that votes based on misinformation.. ignorance of issues.. and general partisan identification. Thus empowering what is truly broken. Not our political system, but one of the two major parties that does nothing but exist to deny the other parties attempts to fix real problems in this country. Misguided or not.. at least one side is actually trying to fix the real problems we have... not pyring into ones personal lives in order to perserve 'christian' values or to makes ones goddamn bathroom experience less threatening hahaha
Do you seriously think the general public actually wields political power?
they've proven it... if you don't see it. You are blind IMO.
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: July 28 2010
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:52
rogerthat wrote:
For starters, the winner takes all format of the Electoral College is problematic. It means a party can game the system by winning a few big states, taking them much closer to 270 than the other. Yes, apportioning college votes proportionally may make the chance of a hung verdict greater, but that is a risk worth taking because it shows the people don't like either candidate enough (something that is probably true of this election) and would convey to both parties that they need to work harder to find appropriate candidates.
Actually the EC is problematic but for the exact opposite reason
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The American Political System: Can It Be Fixed?
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micky wrote:
it is an unpleasant truth.. as it the necessity in foresight perhaps till this particular election 200+ years later hahaha.. of the Electoral College. It was put there to protect this country just for cases like 2016 for voters, their candidates... and major parties like we have in 2016.