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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Anger is an Energy...
    Posted: September 25 2016 at 03:49
Musings of a grumpy old man...

Anger is a force for good or bad depending on how you use it. While some see it as a wholly negative often self-destructive emotion, anger itself is a neutral act, for example, it only becomes the sin of wrath when it is misdirected or used excessively. Yet seldom is it portrayed in any positive way even though anger has resulted in many of the most positive things that man has accomplished as well as many of the most destructive. [Just consider how much worse killing without anger is...] Anger can take us to war yet anger can also cause us to commit selfless acts of charity and compassion. Bob Geldof didn't express pity or remorse for the starving children of Ethiopia; he got angry about it, not only that, he got angry about how governments and aid charities allowed that to happen; so he decided to do something about it - not just to raise money for relief and aid, but to change how that aid was managed and used. That angry "punk" attitude (that Lydon wears like a badge of office) Geldof channelled into motivating millions of people to do something good. And this isn't the only example, "f_ck that's not fair!" has motivated far more people than "oh, da's a shame." - the abolition of slavery wasn't a 'oh, what a pity' reaction to the injustice and inhumanity of slavery and that passive, unemotional, reaction wouldn’t have result in a bloody civil war. Anger is the most powerful energy we possess.

Anger means you care about something in an intensely emotional way, in that respect the opposite of anger is apathy because anger motivates people to action whereas apathy results in inaction. To my way of thinking the crime is to be angry about something and do nothing, being 'grumpy' (bad-tempered and sulky) is then nothing more than unresolved anger. If something makes me angry sitting in the corner sulking about it isn't going to change anything. I can only be grumpy if what I type is tirade of whining and complaining that doesn’t attempt to change the cause of my anger.

However, none of that stops anger being destructive - unchecked and uncontrolled anger is always a bad thing. The trick is resolving the anger without releasing it in a destructive way - like splitting the atom can be used to generate heat to drive a generator turbine or it can be used to level a city. It's that *sharp intake of breath* moment where anger is used as the motivation and impetus for action but should never be used in the execution of that action.

So "Hooray for big things!", but getting angry about the big things in life isn’t something we have a great deal of control over. However, life is not a succession of big things, and life on this forum is never about big things. Really, it’s not – can’t get your own way? That’s no big deal, the world continues to turn and no one died; just shrug and move on. Life is an endless round of small things and trivia, and yet we get angry about the mundane and trivial things in life, the universe and everything... and everything Prog. Music is something that we get passionate about because it has the power to move us and we get passionate about lots of things that move us emotionally. To be passionate is to care - "Trump" grrrh! - why? because I care, "Farage" grrh! - why? because I care, "Kardashians" - meh - why? because I don't care. There are a lot of things in this world that I don't care about but I ain't going to get angry about that either.

Anger often spurs me into making a post here; it would be rare and unusual for me to respond to something that doesn't move me because, frankly, I have better things to do. Post: "<insert your fave band here> is the greatest band in the World!"  and okay, I'm happy for you but I couldn't care less one way or another whether I agree with you or not, however, "<insert my fave band here> are crap" - and now that's a different synopsis - that's a *sharp intake of breath* moment, but not one that will cause me to react because it is pointless. I'm never going to convince anyone that <my fave band> are not crap and no one is going to convince me they are - all that will happen is words will be exchanged, things will get heated and one of us will end up feeling hurt or bitter. That’s never a good outcome. So that *sharp intake of breath* will be released as an unvoiced, unposted, "Meh, so what?" and I’ll get on with my day. Opinions are ten a penny and subjective opinions that mean the world to one person aren’t worth a light to the next.

Back in the last century, when the Internet ran at 2400 baud and IRC and Newsnet was all there was, I frequently “posted angry” because we all did, protocols and etiquette (netiquette as it was known back in the day) were different then. Flame wars were commonplace and everything was a lot more volatile, so tempers flew through the ether like bullets over a battlefield and words were hammered into the keyboard with such force your fingers would hurt by the time you’d finished. And that was all very tiring, a heated conversation would leave you emotionally drained, and arguments were seldom won they just died of attrition and fatigue. But boy could we hold a grudge, the next discussion would begin with the same angry intensity that the previous one had finished with and the cycle never seemed to end. When I first came here in 2007 the PA was still a little like that, a lot more refined and sedate, but some trace of that frontier attitude persisted and the occasional angry outburst was not unknown. Now that behaviour is seen as trollish and uncouth, which often it is, but not always – sometimes an angry response is justified and sometimes it’s good to vent and have a tiny little rant. When someone responds angrily to something said it’s not a cue to respond in kind, it could mean that you’ve may have over-stepped the mark.

'Yeah, but you're always posting angry"... I hear you say. "Oh, it's Dean, the grumpy old git's having an angry rant again." - But the truth is I'm not. I pause and take a breath, calm down and then compose a considered reply, born from anger maybe, but delivered without it. If I think I’ve written an angry response I’ll not send it. It is as simple as that and often the catharsis of typing an angry response is enough to clear the mind – hitting [Clear Form] instead of [Send] can be just as satisfying. Of course that is not to say I will not be very forceful and often quite blunt in what I post but that is because dumb words strung together are powerful things and, strange as it may seem, I'm pretty poor at using them (and we’re all pretty poor at interpreting and comprehending them). 

Unfortunately, I've no fancy certificates to show how fantastically bad I am with words because those more expert than I in academia were emphatic in deciding that I had absolutely no skill in that area at all, and being atrociously bad at the written English language is not something they hand out certificates for. If you think of the lowest grade that modern education can give a candidate and subtract a random number - that's how poor I am at using the written English language - I failed so badly at every English test I've ever taken I can only surmise that I also managed to spell my name incorrectly on the exam papers. So as a consequence I have a penchant for using 30 words when 3 carefully selected ones would have done the job far more effectively and I use run-on sentences and fill my posts with clumsy grammar and endless word lists. I turn the grammar checker off in Word because practically every sentence has something underlined in green.

That's because basically I write as I speak, and I speak at the speed that thoughts pass through my head ... which is very fast – once wound up and let loose I'm a motor mouth supercharged with nitrous oxide (and that's no laughing matter). If you ever have a conversation with me IRL I'll talk your ears off so quickly you'll not have time to blink, let alone think, I'll batter you into submission with a barrage of words because you'll not be able to get a word in edgewise. I speak with such rapidity I don't have time to get (or stay) angry... but you will have all the time in the world to brood and fester because after a few minutes you'll simply stop listening - the aural equivalent of tl;dr is tl;dh. 

So when I type the same is true. I talk a lot but don't say a great deal because I’m desperately trying to convey the seemingly endless freight train of thoughts that are queuing up in a way that can be comprehended by all, without ambiguity and misunderstanding.

English is the lingua franca here, but not everyone fully understands what everyone else is saying, nuances of language, idioms, cultural differences, regionality and age-differences all add up to confuse and confound. Being a chimera of Germanic and Romance languages English is shot full of ambiguity, double meaning and misunderstanding. Take rhetorical sarcasm, I use this sparingly and far less often that you may perceive because it’s so easily misconstrued, especially British sarcasm which is kind of arse-backwards to everyone else’s sarcasm and when used well the intent to offend is inversely proportional to how offensive a statement actually is. Boris Johnson is destined to fail as British Foreign Secretary because he doesn’t “get” this distinction. There are problems enough when you can say something funny and people will think you’re being serious and you can say something serious and people think you’re joking without bringing rhetorical sarcasm into the conversation. (Yeah, right).

I recall a few weeks ago a member of Kayo Dot was complaining (i.e., got angry) on Facebook about how European fans would follow praise with a piece of constructive criticism: “I liked <praise> but <criticism>”. [One of the examples he gave was “I liked your show but your drumming was better on the last tour”]. I believe some Americans call this The German Compliment but all Europeans do it, it’s our way of bring a compliment back down to earth, to show that the compliment is genuine and not born from sycophancy. I was listening to the Saturday Review on Radio 4 last night and every critic on the programme used the “liked… but…” sentence structure in their review. Of course, the idea that unsolicited criticism is unwanted while unsolicited praise is accepted is not unusual or unexpected, while both are said with the same level of intent, it’s the praise that is used as the tagline on a bill-board but criticism that is remembered. However, when a speaker of American English does this they are using the compliment to sugar the bitter pill of criticism so will spin the phrasing around so the criticism comes first and the praise will follow. Rather than building you up then knocking you down, it smacks you in the face then kisses it better.

Anger motivates us to type, (as does incredulity, disappointment, disbelief and a raft of other things), but what appears on the screen can never reflect our emotional state when it was typed. There are very few clues to that within a post because we do not allow personal attacks and frown upon the use of ad hominem logical fallacies so the words themselves are directed solely at the presented opinion/argument/discussion and not our emotional reaction to it or that of the person we are replying to. Just because I say a statement is stupid, dumb, smart or erudite it does not mean that I think the person who said it is any of those things – even the smartest here can say stupid things and even the most respectful can behave like a knob, (present company excepted). 

So… if you think any piece of text posted here is angry, read it again without the preconception of anger and see if it changes your perception and interpretation of what is being said.


...and may the World rise with you. Big smile


Edited by Dean - September 25 2016 at 04:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 06:05
interesting read... you are nothing Dean if not interesting..

Anger is one of those things like smoking dope, drinking Jack by the liter, and sleeping with anything with red hair and a pair of breasts I've gave up as a facet of youth.  With approaching old age I've settled into the warm sliippers of apathy to the stupidity of others and the world around me.

That is not to say I don't get angry... it just a HELL of lot to get me to care enough about this that or the other thing to work myself up.  The closest I get these days is with politics. And even then... the emotions there are even stronger... hate more than anger.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 06:16
I experience irritation these days, more than anger.

I agree that anger can be positive if channelled constructively, but often there is hate and ignorance and stupidity at the heart of anger, evident in the more vocal and thuggish racists we all live alongside in our respective societies. Yes, they feel passionately about something, the problem being they don't really understand reality.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 09:32
Dean, your presence and your "musings" are always thought provoking.  Sometimes when H and I are discussing some topic, esp if it has anything to do with Science or Sci Fi, I've said more than once "I can ask Dean, he'll know, he knows everything about this sh*t."  So I'll PM you and the next morning have my answer in sprawling detail, with charts and equations where needed.  It is in turn enlightening, and also crushing as when you assure me that certain technologies on my favorite Sci Fi series are in reality never going to happen.  LOL

You have a paragraph in the middle about PA.  I think I arrived about the same time as you, and like you I remember the lingering feel of those wild west days that occurred earlier.  It was intense, passionate, and a little nuts.  I can imagine was 2004-06 was like.  If you're a new member, you probably wouldn't believe what this forum was like at one time. 

Anger....am I the only one who uses music to deal with it?  I can break myself with the right metal or punk album and then use something intimate and soft to sweep my psyche into the dustpan and dump it in the compost heap.  That, and gratitude helps too.  I thank God for the people who keep me going. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 10:17
I used to get angry about lots of things. The usual suspects, politics, society, poverty, man's inhumanity to man, people hating Phil Collins, and quite why I had to listen to so much mainstream sh*t in places like bars, pubs, and hotels

These days I tend to get irritated more than angry. I am typing this post in a rather soulless hotel on Salford Quays. I am teaching corporate tax evasion in Manchester tomorrow, and, because of the distances involved, have had to leave my family on a Sunday to get here, rather than travelling tomorrow morning (I would never get here on time). Because of the bloody stingy hotel rates policy HMG has in place now, the place is miles away from the office, and I face a metro commute into the city centre tomorrow morning. Needless to say, I have never done this particular journey before in my life, so should be interesting

Am I angry. Not particularly. I am rather pissed off in a laid back sort of way. I am irritated.

I have, and occasionally still do, suffer from anxiety and panic attacks. I have psoriasis, which tends to wax and wane. At the moment, it is in a wax state. All linked to stress, of course, and the reason I try my best not to get angry, especially on this forum, if I can help it, is because it does my state of mind absolutely no good whatsoever. In terms of politics, I realised some time ago that the type of righteous anger I felt, and tried to channel into "positive" activities such as my trade union work, was manipulated and taken advantage of by people who had no agenda other than self serving, or climbing the greasy pole. Arse holes, most of them, and I bless the day when I took the decision to leave that world behind. Nowadays, the only political discourse I have are the (usually) interesting discussions we have here.

My job (I investigate corporate and personal tax evasion) is a difficult and stressful job. Having said that, it is a job I enjoy, one which, even though I say so myself, I am good at, and take a lot of intellectual pleasure from. That, and knowing that at least my efforts will get dues from people who should, can, but don't play according to the rules our society, in a democratic country, have made.

I don't even get angry about my "customers" (God, how I hate that term in the context of my work) any more. I can't, because it detracts from the professional independence of mind which the job demands. It took me a few years to realise this.

Bearing in mind what Mickey said, I do think that when you reach a certain age, you try to channel that anger in a more positive fashion. You cannot remain young and angry for ever, because the soul, your being, call it what you will, inevitably suffers when you do.

There. My little contribution to an interesting conversation done.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 10:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 11:10
Dean, if you are "fantastically bad [...] with words" then the rest of us must be, well, I can't even think of the word!  I generally delight in reading your posts.  Though I do have to say this one was a bit long and rambling.  Sorry!

I think there is a difference between controlled and uncontrolled anger, with the former being "good" and the latter being pretty much useless.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 13:23
As I understood it, I take the position Dean poses as being a proposal that anger motivates a train of thought or a desire for action.

For myself, I have found this to be the case when engaging theoretical arguments in linguistics (I'm a linguist). Often I'll run into statements or claims that strike me as grossly myopic or misguided, and gets my blood boiling. However, that often results in a very fruitful research topic. It's not just me. Historically, it has most certainly motivated quite a bit of linguistic research more broadly. If anyone's is surprised about that, I would direct them to a book called The Linguistics Wars by Randy Allen Harris. The public ad hominem cussing match between George Lakoff and Ray Jackendoff at one conference is the stuff of legend now. This is the dark side, but perhaps the anger at the heart of it fueled some critical lines of research.

On the political front here in the US, a lot of things that should have people's gander up has been pretty sedate. A lot of the conversation used to turn away from issues and toward personal attacks. That was bad enough. Now the conversation has turned toward how much apathy there is toward the candidates. I find myself now tuning out and becoming apathetic toward people's apathy. Maybe we should be more angry at that apathy. Maybe anger could be superior to apathy if it would bring us back to issues.

So, Dean. Are you yourself concerned about losing some of that constructive anger? Is it possible to be too mellow?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 14:31
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:


On the political front here in the US, a lot of things that should have people's gander up has been pretty sedate. A lot of the conversation used to turn away from issues and toward personal attacks. That was bad enough. Now the conversation has turned toward how much apathy there is toward the candidates. I find myself now tuning out and becoming apathetic toward people's apathy. Maybe we should be more angry at that apathy. Maybe anger could be superior to apathy if it would bring us back to issues.



well to up the discussion.....one could consider anger and apathy two heads of the same coin...

anger is like tits on a man... useless really...  anger converted is worth something. Anger is sitting around stewing about it on the internet for example...which becomes apathy as nothing changes due to anger....anger converted into action ... that becomes hate.

to take Dean's theme and turn it on its head.. anger is not energy... anger converted into hate is energy

Dean made reference to killing. The powers that be don't make good unfeeling little killers of us by encouraging anger.. they do by encouraging hate. Dehumanizing. 

History is filled with that..and you best believe we see it still today.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 15:33
Yes, English is so very contradictory and complex, it's a wonder we all do so well understanding each other.   I often hear the faint cerebral clatter of people here putting two & two together, translating what someone wrote ~ even native English speakers ~ into what they mean.   As the Beatles so eloquently said, "Indicate precisely what you mean to say".   No better advice, but not always easy.

Sounds like you've been sorting through some stuff, Dean.   Good work.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2016 at 13:50
Anger is a mutually sheared emotion that has it's origins in a person's need for self preservation, in much the same way that fear is an emotion for self protection. Anger usually follows soon after some threat of harm. We are hardwired for it and we'll never be free of it. That doesn't mean that we can't try to manage it. That starts from knowing where the anger has originated from and why we're feeling it.

I was terribly angry about my wife's medical condition prior to her passing away and continued with that anger to until just very recently. There comes a time when we see no gain in holding on to this type of anger and let it go. It's all quite human and understandable. The reasons for that anger were manifold, but it doesn't matter if was from a feeling helplessness or loss. We adjust, we reason, we carry on.

I personally don't see much good in trying to put an negative "energy" into a positive spin. Geldorf may have expressed his feelings as anger, but the anger was born out of feelings of compassion. Perhaps that's a way to put a positive spin on a negative feeling.

But the bottom line, IMHO, is that anger derives from instinct, where as feelings like jealousy and envy derive from the ego. Much more mysterious stuff that old ego and more difficult for people to manage. A lot of murders and bad blood result, but again, it's another part of being human. However, I'll take instinct and anger over jealousy and envy any day. The red monster can be reigned in or temporarily muted. The green monster? No reasoning will suffice with such a beast, I should think. 


Edited by SteveG - September 27 2016 at 14:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2016 at 14:23
Anger is not merely a flight or fight response to a perceived threat. It is a noxious by-product of the ego.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2016 at 14:27
^It can be if the root cause is jealousy and envy, IMO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2016 at 14:39
Good to know you overcame your anger about your wife's passing. Not easy to do. In 1988 my wife passed from cancer at the age of 33. She weighed 68 pounds. She left me with a one year old son. Balancing anger with the responsibility of raising a child was the hardest thing to do in my life. I now understand holding on to anger can only block your growth as a person.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2016 at 04:12
^Thanks for sharing that Tim. I'm glad that you made it past the anger stage too, and kudos for carrying on for your son's sake. My post was totally made up of my opinions on anger in an effort to answer Dean's opinions. No basis really in scientific fact, just my gut feelings on these emotions. And probably an inner need to air them out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2016 at 00:25
No doubt, anger is energy. As you put it, whether it gets put to good or bad, reckon that's up the person. 
Anger can absolutely be constructive, though it also can tip easily into (or foster) hate, which is only destructive. 
I have seen what anger can do to smart, good people who sincerely mean well. The blindness and stupidity it can cause, and how easily manipulated it is. 

Was a pretty darn angry person, like many people are in youth, but thankfully have been moving on slowly from it. While much of my anger was outward, and I still believe justified, ultimately came to the realization acceptance it was mostly internal. Self loathing and what not. 

Peacefulness, understanding, acceptance etc etc while more difficult, seems very clearly the way to go over anger. I know I've made some pretty big progress in my personal life from it. 


Edited by JJLehto - September 30 2016 at 00:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2016 at 06:58
Not really working through anything, just attempting to show that what we perceive in a post is not necessarily a reflection of the intent or emotion with which it was made. 

It's interesting that many of you have brought up hate here whereas I purposely avoided using that word in my post. Hate manifests itself in many ways and can be caused by a variety of reasons. Sometimes we use the word hate when we mean dislike or intolerant of - I dislike cauliflower and racists, and I'm also intolerant of racism and cauliflower ... but can't get angry about cauliflower. However, I can't think of a situation where I could regard either of them as an irritation.

I can relate to every reply posted here in someway or other because all those causes and effects are interrelated and often (like my own personal psoriasis hell) are self-feeding: I can be angry for being angry, irritated by being irritated, stressed for being stressed and I can hate being hateful. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2016 at 20:03
Reading the rantings of an angry old man requires energy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2016 at 23:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2016 at 09:28
Have you seen the movie Inside Out? That film is quite related to this threads core question regardingg our emotion spectrum
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