Genesis after 1976 and responsibility

verslibre wrote: Rednight wrote: ^Apart from Swallow You Swallow Me.   Finish this title: "Deep in the Mother____."

That's the funniest thing I've seen for ages (apart from my douche face......) Ba dum tss...........LMAO

Edited by Tom Ozric - January 27 2017 at 22:19

Hercules wrote: Sean Trane wrote: Nothing went on inside the band without  without Tony's consent... so those blaming on Phil (and to a lesser extent on Mike) may want to rethink their thoughts  Anyone who has seen the documentary on Genesis will appreciate how correct this is. Banks came across as a talented but slightly unpleasant dictator.

And slightly frustrated as well, since he's the only not to have made a fortune in his solo career
Collins & Gabe were regular charts visitors
Hackett had his GTR and that  UK TV theme raking in the dough
Mike had his Mechanics
Ant Phillips' album Side apparently sold quite well and had also a theme

I'd say that Hackett's leaving Gen was more than partly Bank's doing

- Hackett started getting frustrated when the band started to give songs individual credit in Trick. And he only had his name twice in (Entangled & Endos), when he was finding ideas like crazy, following the making of Voyage
- Voyage was most likely a frustration for Banks: along with Gabe, he's the only Genesis member not playing on it. While the band was in danger of folding, Hackett was busy with his own project, and Tony probably thought he used up a bunch of ideas that could've been used for the band *** . So Tony most likely willfully limited Hackett's input in Trick
- Confronted with Steve's frustration, Banks gives much more space to Hackett on W&W, but, while it's a lot, it's too late. And even if Hackett gets a big share, Banks still limits one more idea of his by asking Rutherford to double the length of that atrocious YOSW (3 minutes was more than enough for that turd, but it made more than double)
- Hackett leaves the band during the elaboration of the PDT album (no Gen member on it... probably due to Tony's insistance).... except for dummer Thompson.



***: this was also an issue in Floyd, as both Gilmour and Wright used up their ideas in their 77/78 solo albums and kept nothing for Floyd, then complained about Waters' taking over musical direction. The same Waters that was the only one keeping the Floyd boat afloat (with their manager) as the band was bankrupt (bad investments) between 76 and 79.

Lots of info here, keep it coming.

twosteves wrote: Banks may have been the dictator but I don't think he brought pop into the band---I think Collins did that

zravkapt wrote: thief wrote: ... or maybe all of them simultaneously came to conclusion "let's do some mellow pop thing and cash in at last!" Bingo!

There seems be a warped perception by the general public that the artist's (any artist's) record label was some kind of benign entity that merely produced vinyl, tapes or CDs on behalf of the music artist and had little power over them. 

Edited by SteveG - January 28 2017 at 10:33

Sean Trane wrote: Hercules wrote: Sean Trane wrote: Nothing went on inside the band without  without Tony's consent... so those blaming on Phil (and to a lesser extent on Mike) may want to rethink their thoughts  Anyone who has seen the documentary on Genesis will appreciate how correct this is. Banks came across as a talented but slightly unpleasant dictator. And slightly frustrated as well, since he's the only not to have made a fortune in his solo career Collins & Gabe were regular charts visitors Hackett had his GTR and that  UK TV theme raking in the dough Mike had his Mechanics Ant Phillips' album Side apparently sold quite well and had also a theme I'd say that Hackett's leaving Gen was more than partly Bank's doing - Hackett started getting frustrated when the band started to give songs individual credit in Trick. And he only had his name twice in (Entangled & Endos), when he was finding ideas like crazy, following the making of Voyage - Voyage was most likely a frustration for Banks: along with Gabe, he's the only Genesis member not playing on it. While the band was in danger of folding, Hackett was busy with his own project, and Tony probably thought he used up a bunch of ideas that could've been used for the band *** . So Tony most likely willfully limited Hackett's input in Trick - Confronted with Steve's frustration, Banks gives much more space to Hackett on W&W, but, while it's a lot, it's too late. And even if Hackett gets a big share, Banks still limits one more idea of his by asking Rutherford to double the length of that atrocious YOSW (3 minutes was more than enough for that turd, but it made more than double) - Hackett leaves the band during the elaboration of the PDT album (no Gen member on it... probably due to Tony's insistance).... except for dummer Thompson. ***: this was also an issue in Floyd, as both Gilmour and Wright used up their ideas in their 77/78 solo albums and kept nothing for Floyd, then complained about Waters' taking over musical direction. The same Waters that was the only one keeping the Floyd boat afloat (with their manager) as the band was bankrupt (bad investments) between 76 and 79.

Don't think comparing Banks to Waters is appropriate. Waters seemed to want total control. Gilmour is all over Animals and The Wall and only has a couple of credits. It is something that Gilmour has occasionally complained about in the past. Those solos were his, Waters didn't write them out for him. Some of Wrights best playing was on Animals. That 2 plus minute intro on Sheep is mostly all him. I would imagine Waters didn't write it out and instead said I need something here, what do you have.   How does Wright not get a credit?

Genesis spread the credits around. I feel that the writers got the credit. TOTT is my fav Genesis album but it could have used a little less Banks and more Hackett. SH was not around for the beginning of the recording sessions as he was out taking care of SH and his solo album. But there is no doubt that Banks was the leader and when push came to shove, his stuff got worked on.

As mentioned before, Genesis had taken several shots at the single market and had not been successful. YOSW tried to be a hit single but then stretched it so long that doesn't fit that market. While not prog at all , I always liked FYFM. YOSW was a Rutherford song and the lyrics to FYFM were his too. So after all of these years of whipping Phil, maybe we should now stone Rutherford!

zravkapt wrote: twosteves wrote: Banks may have been the dictator but I don't think he brought pop into the band---I think Collins did that And that's the myth this thread has been dispelling. What did Collins have to do with their first album or songs like "I Know What I Like," "Counting Out Time" and "Your Own Special Way"?

SteveG wrote: zravkapt wrote: thief wrote: ... or maybe all of them simultaneously came to conclusion "let's do some mellow pop thing and cash in at last!" Bingo! There seems be a warped perception by the general public that the artist's (any artist's) record label was some kind of benign entity that merely produced vinyl, tapes or CDs on behalf of the music artist and had little power over them.  That was certainly not the case in the late 70's. Only artists like Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and split up Beatles had that kind of artistic control that was afforded to them on the basis of a business contract that stated so.  Read the lyrics to "Down and Out" below: "Down And Out" Its good to be here! How've you been? Check my bags boy! Where's my room? Gotta sit on the phone, that's my game, Keep up the pressure all the way! I don't want to beat about the bush but none of us are getting any younger. There's people out there who could take your place. A more commercial view! A fresher face! I need a shower, take a nap I'll meet you in the bar, must have a rap. There's a lot on the line, a lot to say. And there's something I must tell you today. You and I both knew the score, you can't go on like this for ever. So its with regret I tell you now that from this moment on, you're on your own! I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes. If you're slow they'll run past you, Stand tall, see them falling over. I walk a straight line, right between the eyes. But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better. The drinks are on me, be my guest. Smoke a cigar? Take the best. Don't hedge your bets, we can make a deal, Got it in your pocket, how do you feel? So glad that's over, now you know. But I'm only acting under orders. And looking down on you from way up here. You've gotta sink or swim, get off the floor! I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes. If you're slow they'll run past you. Stand tall, see them falling over. I walk a straight line, right between the eyes. But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better. I've heard this speech given to artists by greasy record executives and label A&R reps too many times in the late seventies and early eighties. Remember, that was the age when a major record label that was built on the success of one single prog artist, Virgin Records and Mike Oldfield respectively, signed the next big commercial thing that they thought was coming, namely The Sex Pistols.  Artists are often rumored to makes deals with the devil in American folklore. Well, who do you suppose that devil was?

"Blame" implies someone ruined Genesis post Wind&Wuthering , or whenever, and I don't really buy into that idea. I think pretty much every Genesis album has a lot to offer.

If you want a scapegoat for why they diverged from prog however, then blame ... punk.

I'm watching this right now. Good commentary by everyone involved

Edited by Jeffro - January 29 2017 at 18:53