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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2017 at 19:55
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

this west coast liberal transplanted southern honky as well as Civil War buff and amateur historian thinks this article..  hot off the presses.... says it best.  Ask yourself...  why were the statues there in the first place. Puts the current debate and events of the last week in context.



As a long time southerner and 'race mixer', I did not need to read the article to know why the statues exist. They were reminders to black people, and to a lesser extant Jews, Catholics, immigrants and others, that we are watching you and we will keep you in your place.

Edited by Easy Money - August 16 2017 at 20:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2017 at 20:07
yep.....

you know though...  I could get used to this silver linings with Trump election sh*t.  Perhaps it wasn't the change the yokels and ignorants thought.. who thought he cared one iota about them or their well-being.. but perhaps the regime change motif of the article is quite elegant and effective.  Dovetailing with earlier posts I've made...  America is changing... and Trump is not going to stop it... only merely accelerate it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2017 at 20:12
You can tell from my previous posts that I am %100 anti-klan, anti-nazi and anti-confederate, but some of you who feel the same way have some misconceptions about the causes of the civil war. The north (or more specifically Lincoln) did not become anti-slavery until they were concerned that the south was getting sympathy from Europe.

Racist people exist all over the world, including the US north, California and else where and everywhere.

Edited by Easy Money - August 16 2017 at 20:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2017 at 20:17
know it well John.. I was very close to making that jump from amateur historian to a published one.  Many times over the years  I've corrected friends and acquaintences 'misconceptions' about the war.

I spent many years researching my book... crawling through county historical societies all over the south.  I still have dreams of finishing it.  Anhow I'll put my knowledge of that era of our history against anyone's.  Agreed there are a lot of common misconceptions and misunderstandings today about that period of our history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2017 at 20:30
I've seen Ken Burns' The Civil War over 20 times. Naturally, I am now an expert on the matter.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2017 at 20:31
Re Micky
Maybe you have looked at economic maps of the states before and after the war, that will tell you a lot. Louisiana used to be the richest state in the nation, hard to believe now.

Edited by Easy Money - August 17 2017 at 08:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 01:01
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

In general, and in honor of this thread's title, I just want to say: isn't American politics fun! Both classy and cerebral.

It knocks North Korea, Turkey, Venezuela, and Poland into a cocked hat for entertainment value. I wouldn't like to be in the middle of it though.

Hey...you think it's bad? Try living here...
Yes, you certainly don't want to be in the middle of it. 538 had an excellent analysis of polling for right wing populists in various European countries, how there was a pretty uniform drop pretty much after Trump's election and over time. The "oh sh*t" moment maybe caused a few people to shake their heads and realize the error of their thinking. So how about some thanks for our suffering, and less schadenfreude? Wink

Just be wary of ya know, lumping large groups of people into monolithic blocs....
While a disturbingly large swath of this country is thirsty for regression, other areas are keen to move forward. Such as the mayors, governors and businesses who will keep up the Paris Agreement on their own, the cities and states passing tuition free college bills, raising their minimum wages (in some cases to actually liveable levels), passing LGBT rights, the earlier article I posted where a few cities passed bills to divest/refuse to invest in any company that works on Trump's wall. 

The fun irony  being this is the very thing our right claims to represent, until they're in power then suddenly nah...all that local control and decentralized power stuff is no good
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 01:22
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

You can tell from my previous posts that I am %100 anti-klan, anti-nazi and anti-confederate, but some of you who feel the same way have some misconceptions about the causes of the civil war. The north (or more specifically Lincoln) did not become anti-slavery until they were concerned that the south was getting sympathy from Europe.

Racist people exist all over the world, including the US north, California and else where and everywhere.

True on both fronts. Lincoln was indeed quite racist personally, and the focus of the war did shift from preservation of the union, to anti slavery in the North. I believe part of it was also morale....the North was starting to grow wary of this bloody conflict, including the draft, and since many were racist as well ya know easier to make a moral argument to help keep people on board. Spurred on by real stories about the horrors making their way up.

Oh yes, there sure as hell is racism all over. In a twisted way, the openness of it in the South is almost, I can't think of the right word but least it's not hidden? In the northeast, I had to deal with the shock of having my eyes ripped open: virulent racism was there and not insignificant, it just was kept under wraps. 

Not sure if I posted the pic here, but read a great book that (among other things) looked at racist Google searches, and found a vast amount in the North. OH, IN, MI, parts of WI and PA but also upstate NY, parts of New England. All were quite high on the scale of racist searches. The author noted these areas happened to strongly correlate with Trump's strongest support in the GOP primary, and I noticed many of these areas either flipped from blue (sometimes for decades) to red, or greatly lost Dem support. In other areas they went from red to blood red, sometimes the highest support for a Repub since the 80s or even 1972. It's crazy. 
While I still think econ and other factors are involved, seems hard to dispute. 

Personally I was disturbed at the amount of people around me posting openly comments like "Black just are naturally prone to be criminals" "If minorities would just stop being criminals there'd be no problems with the police" posting (false) stats about how likely a white is to be killed by a black, all these phony Trump/Sessions stats about our cities etc etc and I won't even start on the anti Muslim sentiments pouring out the woodwork. In good ol liberal, quite diverse, central NJ...


Edited by JJLehto - August 17 2017 at 01:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 01:50
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Ah yes the culture war. For the time being, it's not a war the Democrats will win. 

ahhh.. no....



And I as I went into in some length back in the other thread.  The only way the Democrats don't win the Culture War completely is if the Republican party doesn't continue valuing short term success over long term health.  It's winning (short term strategy) of playing upon fear and holding tight to the its core support of old white men, bigots, racists, and religious fundies. It works and has for decades.. but it won't for much longer. Unless they moderate and turn their back on those divisive elements and quit alienating the minorities they will drive the emerging minority-majority as completely into the Democratic camp as they did the Blacks. 

The Republican Party moderating?  Does anyone see that happening. The one bright side to Trump winning.. their day of reconning is pushed back further.... so they won in 20166 and get to 'enjoy' their Faustian bargain with Trump and the alt-Right but it is a long term losing game. In fact.. one reason why many in the GOP feared Trump was.. well look at yesterday

Gotta love the indignation from the GOP about Trump's embrace of the bigots and racists.  Hey.. give the man credit where due.  That is NO surprise... he has been remarkably consistent.. from well before the election about his lack of any empathy and ignorance to the very deep and still revelvalnt today wounds of our racist and bigotted past as a nation.  At least Trump is honest about it... while the rest of the GOP establishment still courts those same knuckheads... but treat them just as they do the religious fundies.. blow smoke up their asses to get their votes.. then give them scraps. 

However what was feared.. is now very likely to come to pass...  the veneer of the GOP courting of the haters and dividers (to say nothing of who well they exploit those tactics politically) is likely to be completely blown off by Trump.  It is his party now.. and intstead of being the so called (spits beer on monitor) Party of Lincoln.. it will be the Party of the Ohio Nazi's... damn I hate Ohio Nazi's....

1965. Different times my friend. Also that is just one example. 

2017: Senators are introducing legislation to limit legal immigration. http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/homeland-security/346480-the-raise-act-reveals-what-trump-really-thinks-about Pretty much a direct middle finger to the 1965 act. Not gunna pass but still, this is happening. Supported by our President who wants to ban Muslims from traveling here, and building a wall on the Mexican border. 

The muslim ban btw seems to have plurality possibly majority support from Americans, and while no one believes Mexico will pay for a wall there are not insignificant numbers of Americans who want it, including in Macomb County, MI the bastion of the white working class. Seems clear to me, a strong econ message and perhaps downplaying the culture war, Dems can win. If not, the suburbs and rust belt default Republican. Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Trump. Slowly the left will win, but as of right now sadly its not the case. 

When I say culture war, know it's not 0 or 100. Like I said a moderate campaign should be taken, some issues are non negotiable at the federal level, and others (like the Transgender Military Ban that a majority of people and many military folk hate) are key issues they should focus on. Or Trump's Charlottesville comments, that's not only morally right but even most Republicans are indeed horrified at them. 
But fact is overall, the race issue is the hottest of buttons right now, sad as that is. These police shootings man, the BLM (aka white conservatives get in a rage at black people daring to speak up) rapid progress on gay rights, weed acceptance, growth of Isis, throw in some sh*t economy for about 50% of the nation and we get this: The great white backlash of 2016. The culture war is on and for the time being, as has been the case since Nixon, seems the left is not winning itCry 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 02:46
The upshot of all this is politics as such is seriously messed up and toxic now.  I wouldn't want to be the one poking fun at USA right now because this is happening here (over entirely different issues, of course)  and if it hasn't spread to some part of the democratic world already, it's probably just a matter of time so don't pat your backs thinking how civilised you are because you may be in for a rude shock.  

It's like somebody waved a red flag to signal people to pour out long suppressed resentments.  What the media calls the ugly underbelly but at this rate, it's fast graduating from underbelly to facade.  Trump reminds me of angry, well educated defenders of cow vigilantes...in my office (holding fairly senior positions, I may add). I agree with David.  Best to just switch off from the politics, as fatalistic as it sounds.  And I am not being delusional; rather I fear the worst.  And I don't think there's much that can be done.  Plenty of blood is going to spill before this resentment finds an outlet to completely get out of the system.  Well, ok, at least you Americans can keep hoping for some more time to get him impeached; we don't even have that choice.  Very difficult to oust the head of state in a Parliamentary system and just not happening when said head of state's position is well nigh unassailable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 03:54
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

The upshot of all this is politics as such is seriously messed up and toxic now.  I wouldn't want to be the one poking fun at USA right now because this is happening here (over entirely different issues, of course)  and if it hasn't spread to some part of the democratic world already, it's probably just a matter of time so don't pat your backs thinking how civilised you are because you may be in for a rude shock.  

It's like somebody waved a red flag to signal people to pour out long suppressed resentments.  What the media calls the ugly underbelly but at this rate, it's fast graduating from underbelly to facade.  Trump reminds me of angry, well educated defenders of cow vigilantes...in my office (holding fairly senior positions, I may add). I agree with David.  Best to just switch off from the politics, as fatalistic as it sounds.  And I am not being delusional; rather I fear the worst.  And I don't think there's much that can be done.  Plenty of blood is going to spill before this resentment finds an outlet to completely get out of the system.  Well, ok, at least you Americans can keep hoping for some more time to get him impeached; we don't even have that choice.  Very difficult to oust the head of state in a Parliamentary system and just not happening when said head of state's position is well nigh unassailable.

Seems that way. Because even if Europe has managed to hold it off for now, the next recession is coming. When it does, that may be what pushes more over the edge.
I can't help but think about the Economist. After Macron won, they quickly declared the end of populism, he was the second coming of Christ (or so you'd think by reading their articles) and he was gunna pull all of Europe under his wings. I'm really not exaggerating. 

Well, 3 months in and Macron's popularity is at 36% ten points lower than Hollande at this point, and only 23% feel France is currently on the right track. It seems that (brace yourself) his neoliberalism and elitism have turned a lot of people off. Shocking...  With the low turnout and record number of blank ballots, certainly doesn't seem like France is very big on Macron, they were just smart enough to not pick Le Pen. Not a brilliant endorsement. Brexit, the Italian technocratic referendum rejection and Silvio "the original Trump" Berlusconi is seeing a bounce in the polls, currently leading polls. Somehow. Even Germany while remaining noble in its taking in of immigrants seems to be making the country wary. For now populism is at bay there, but is this permanent? Merkel already had to take a rightward shift on the issue to placate them.

That is exactly what happened. Virulent racism clearly was not on the decline in the US just tucked away, and indeed seems there was a whole dam of pent up frustrations, now being flooded on us. 
Well, I still have little hope for impeachment but maybe now after his Charlottesville comments there is some hope. Really the GOP shouldn't want him around, even from a cynic's point he's been so incompetent he's made it harder to pass legislation, so they can't even "use him" like they hoped. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 04:16
Final note for now: Things really ARE screwed up in this White House. 

It seems that in June Trump's DHS cut near $1.3 million in funding dedicated to combating white supremacist ideology. 

Overall the "Countering Violent Extremism" program has been under fire by Sebastian Gorka (one our European Trumpers complete with ties to questionable organizations) and the focus has been shifted from domestic extremism to Islamic extremism and law enforcement. 
This is despite the fact the DHS itself put out a report in May that white supremacist violence has been on the rise, with violence "expected to continue" and that they have been responsible for more attacks than any other domestic extremist group. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-dhs-may-report-warned-of-threat-posed-by-white-supremacists/

All this sh*t from Trump isn't just rhetoric, it's real policyCryAngryDead



Edited by JJLehto - August 17 2017 at 04:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 04:27
^^ Charlottesville would be a good excuse for GOP to get rid of him but, and correct me if I am wrong, haven't Pence & Co been silent on Trump's own words so far and only Rubio and Kasich have joined McCain and Romney in criticising him?  Maybe they are STILL weighing the real effect of this whole episode on possible election results rather than the problems it's going to unleash?

Macron happened against "the run of play" and may prove to be an aberration.  Or maybe not but there are angry Swedish bloggers for one thing, so similar sentiments are simmering in Europe as well indeed.  Besides, we are coming up to the 100 year mark from the point where the two bloodiest wars ever began so it can happen. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 06:17
^ Pence has supported Trump's words. This is one more reason why I don't think impeaching Trump would bring any improvement to the situation at hand.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 13:11
Well many Republicans have criticized what happened, though yes fewer have called out Trump for it, though the RNC chair did say to white supremacists "We dont want your vote" which Trump still has never actually done. 
To be fair, it all rings a bit hollow for me. The GOP has been using racist dog whistling for decades. It's been worse in recent years too. Before Trump even ran we already had governors coming out to say they wont take Syrian refugees, the Tea Party trying to defund sanctuary cities, the rallying cry of the GOP was "WHY WONT OBAMA SAY ISLAMIC TERRORISM!?" and the GOP base was in open rebellion against the party over moderate, reasonable immigration reform (same as happened under GWBush). There's always the classic welfare bashing, a long time proxy for race baiting. Whether it was meant to be or not, I still think Romney's 47% and Paul Rand (excuse me Paul Ryan's) "makers and takers" had their own racist implications. 

So to me it almost feels like "This virulent, blatant racism is wrong! We want the subtler, more gentle racism"

Oh EM I was thinking from a Republican POV. Dumping Trump (which isn't happening I am 99% sure) would be wise for them, it would do nothing to fix the problems in this country. Trump is accidentally brilliant...by encircling himself with this crop of horrifying/incompetent people even removing him feels no good. 
I realized how crazy is it as a liberal, (and everyone else agreed with this) I'd feel most happy about the gov being lead by a guy with the nick name "mad dog"??

If I may be cynical, from a leftist POV I almost think its better having Trump around. Pence may be more effective...Trump has been useless at getting a conservative agenda across, partly because of his style which has ensured basically no democrat will work with him and enough Repubs wont either, and he's dragging the party down with him at this point. Pence or others may try to restore normalcy to the WH, which again means maybe stuff gets done. By filling it with bomb throwers and loons, (and being hands off letting all this just happen him) Trump has made governing impossible. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 14:29
I typed a lengthy post that solved all of our political problems but CAPTCHA won't let me post it so I guess that we just carry on with all of the chaos that currently exists.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 14:31
about spilled my coffee all over me this morning when reading the Bannon interview ...  silver linings with Trump and this morning agreeing with Steve Bannon. What the hell is going on hahah

 Yeah the man is a dangerous moron at least in things domestic... but isnt completely stupid.  Again I think the military knows the score even if they can't come out and say it in public... if I do.. they surely do ... his aides apparantly do... does Trump himself. 

“Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that 10 million people in Seoul don’t die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don’t know what you’re talking about, there’s no military solution here, they got us,” 

 that they do... nukes are poltical weapons.. and they have us backed by the very real weapons including a substantial chemical weapon arsenal. Checkmate.....  threats and bluster mean nothing to them.  Our own intelligence is saying it is too late.. they moved faster than we thought they could.  So back to where we've been for the last 50 years.. containment and deescalation.



Edited by micky - August 17 2017 at 14:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 14:33
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

I typed a lengthy post that solved all of our political problems but CAPTCHA won't let me post it so I guess that we just carry on with all of the chaos that currently exists.

hahahha....  good thing. Take away all of our entertainment and fun...  bad Scott.. bad.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 14:38
I posted my thoughts in the MMA Shred room.  At least there is no censorship on that site.  Stupid PA and its CAPTCHAs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2017 at 14:41
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

I posted my thoughts in the MMA Shred room.  At least there is no censorship on that site.  Stupid PA and its CAPTCHAs.

heading that way!!  Always curious as to what you think Scott.. shame you don't post more from your particular perspective.  I think we were very much of the same mind going into the election...more centrist..  I don't know about you but the last 9 months have really pushed me hard to the left.
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