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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2018 at 21:06
If I may, that's a good dodge, micky.  His question wasn't about why Democrats weren't voting anti-war but why they didn't stand up for the principles you claimed they possessed.  It is well known that Clinton had voted for the Iraq war and there are many more who would like to conceal their views on the Gadaffi debacle. The point being this is all about the military industry complex that Ike had mentioned and is hardly going to go away merely by voting Democrat rather than Republican.  In the case of Trump, his lack of qualification itself should have been a good enough reason not to vote for him but Clinton's lack of discretion (like going to a coal state and saying we're getting rid of coal) for all her political experience ultimately cost her heavily.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2018 at 21:13
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

If I may, that's a good dodge, micky.  His question wasn't about why Democrats weren't voting anti-war but why they didn't stand up for the principles you claimed they possessed.  It is well known that Clinton had voted for the Iraq war and there are many more who would like to conceal their views on the Gadaffi debacle. The point being this is all about the military industry complex that Ike had mentioned and is hardly going to go away merely by voting Democrat rather than Republican.  In the case of Trump, his lack of qualification itself should have been a good enough reason not to vote for him but Clinton's lack of discretion (like going to a coal state and saying we're getting rid of coal) for all her political experience ultimately cost her heavily.  

Sadly, if Joe Biden's son had not died at the start of the primary cycle, we would not be having this conversation. Biden would have mopped the floor with Trump during the debates. Can you imagine Trump trying to pull the same stunts with Biden as he did against Hillary? And Biden did not have the same baggage as Hillary. I would have certainly voted for him during the primaries.


Edited by The Dark Elf - September 22 2018 at 21:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2018 at 21:44
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

If I may, that's a good dodge, micky.  His question wasn't about why Democrats weren't voting anti-war but why they didn't stand up for the principles you claimed they possessed.  It is well known that Clinton had voted for the Iraq war and there are many more who would like to conceal their views on the Gadaffi debacle. The point being this is all about the military industry complex that Ike had mentioned and is hardly going to go away merely by voting Democrat rather than Republican.  In the case of Trump, his lack of qualification itself should have been a good enough reason not to vote for him but Clinton's lack of discretion (like going to a coal state and saying we're getting rid of coal) for all her political experience ultimately cost her heavily.  

haha.  Well picked up..  to be honest I wasn't sure what the f**k he was asking so I just snipped away.

And perhaps I'm being a bit dense here.. but what principals have I claimed they possess.  If one can't easily stick Trump voter into nice neat boxes to explain why they voted the way they did, as easy as it to call them all racists and bigots, that simply isn't the case. However one surely can't, I wouldn't even attempt to try, to explain or generalize why Hillary voter voted as they did.  If anything it is far more complex than Trump voter as unlike the remnants of the Republican party that has pushed out elements that don't fit where the party is going anymore.. way right..ie moderates.. the Democratic Party (for now) is still a very ideologically diverse party. 

to its credit of course.. and to a fault.. but as I've noted.. the Democratic Party thanks to Trump and all that he has stirred up is going to have its own problems with ideological purity and I give the term 'DINO' exactly 3 months before we start seeing it thrown around. There are likely to going to be a lot of left of center progressives in Congress come January and they don't appear to have to have much appetite for compromise, either with Repblicans or what they consider the corporate enablers of the moderate branch of the party.


Edited by micky - September 22 2018 at 21:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2018 at 21:51
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

If I may, that's a good dodge, micky.  His question wasn't about why Democrats weren't voting anti-war but why they didn't stand up for the principles you claimed they possessed.  It is well known that Clinton had voted for the Iraq war and there are many more who would like to conceal their views on the Gadaffi debacle. The point being this is all about the military industry complex that Ike had mentioned and is hardly going to go away merely by voting Democrat rather than Republican.  In the case of Trump, his lack of qualification itself should have been a good enough reason not to vote for him but Clinton's lack of discretion (like going to a coal state and saying we're getting rid of coal) for all her political experience ultimately cost her heavily.  

Sadly, if Joe Biden's son had not died at the start of the primary cycle, we would not be having this conversation. Biden would have mopped the floor with Trump during the debates. Can you imagine Trump trying to pull the same stunts with Biden as he did against Hillary? And Biden did not have the same baggage as Hillary. I would have certainly voted for him during the primaries.

you do know of course Biden wanted to run... Obama personally pressured him not to run.

As I've said.. I'd bet my paycheck that in a honest off the record moment if one asked him if he had one single regret.. one thing he could take back.. it would be rewarding Hillary for her loyalty (remember how bitter the 2008 primaries were)  and her being due and pushing Biden out of her way for the 2016 nomination. For yeah,  I think Biden would have crushed Trump in that election.


Edited by micky - September 22 2018 at 21:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2018 at 22:00
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

If I may, that's a good dodge, micky.  His question wasn't about why Democrats weren't voting anti-war but why they didn't stand up for the principles you claimed they possessed.  It is well known that Clinton had voted for the Iraq war and there are many more who would like to conceal their views on the Gadaffi debacle. The point being this is all about the military industry complex that Ike had mentioned and is hardly going to go away merely by voting Democrat rather than Republican.  In the case of Trump, his lack of qualification itself should have been a good enough reason not to vote for him but Clinton's lack of discretion (like going to a coal state and saying we're getting rid of coal) for all her political experience ultimately cost her heavily.  

Sadly, if Joe Biden's son had not died at the start of the primary cycle, we would not be having this conversation. Biden would have mopped the floor with Trump during the debates. Can you imagine Trump trying to pull the same stunts with Biden as he did against Hillary? And Biden did not have the same baggage as Hillary. I would have certainly voted for him during the primaries.

'Tis what happens in politics.  Back home, I hear bureaucrats in the capital city Delhi saying they appreciate how Jyotiraditya Scindia speaks.  But he's not a Prime Ministerial candidate, Rahul Gandhi is.  Which means five more years of Modi.  Oh no!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2018 at 22:07
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

If I may, that's a good dodge, micky.  His question wasn't about why Democrats weren't voting anti-war but why they didn't stand up for the principles you claimed they possessed.  It is well known that Clinton had voted for the Iraq war and there are many more who would like to conceal their views on the Gadaffi debacle. The point being this is all about the military industry complex that Ike had mentioned and is hardly going to go away merely by voting Democrat rather than Republican.  In the case of Trump, his lack of qualification itself should have been a good enough reason not to vote for him but Clinton's lack of discretion (like going to a coal state and saying we're getting rid of coal) for all her political experience ultimately cost her heavily.  

haha.  Well picked up..  to be honest I wasn't sure what the f**k he was asking so I just snipped away.

And perhaps I'm being a bit dense here.. but what principals have I claimed they possess.  If one can't easily stick Trump voter into nice neat boxes to explain why they voted the way they did, as easy as it to call them all racists and bigots, that simply isn't the case. However one surely can't, I wouldn't even attempt to try, to explain or generalize why Hillary voter voted as they did.  If anything it is far more complex than Trump voter as unlike the remnants of the Republican party that has pushed out elements that don't fit where the party is going anymore.. way right..ie moderates.. the Democratic Party (for now) is still a very ideologically diverse party. 

to its credit of course.. and to a fault.. but as I've noted.. the Democratic Party thanks to Trump and all that he has stirred up is going to have its own problems with ideological purity and I give the term 'DINO' exactly 3 months before we start seeing it thrown around. There are likely to going to be a lot of left of center progressives in Congress come January and they don't appear to have to have much appetite for compromise, either with Repblicans or what they consider the corporate enablers of the moderate branch of the party.

I think he was responding to your argument about how the Democrats tried to oppose the Iraq War and were painted as unpatriotic for doing so.  But, as he points out, many of them did in fact support the War, including Hillary.  While 60% of Democrats voted against it, nearly 40% supported it.  So there's plenty of neoconism to go around on both sides.  And as you have speculated, I too believe there will be ideological cleansing in the Democratic Party.  But I don't see how far progressive politics would go at a nationwide level and maybe like the Tea Party devouring the GOP, something similar will happen to the Democratic Party and a new centre right party may be birthed by those disgruntled with the ideological extremism on both sides.  I am thinking (wishing?) a return to the middle will happen at some point because the fascination with ideological purity will eventually prove to be mostly sound and fury without sustainable and inclusive solutions.  But I could be wrong and maybe the right will use the Democrats' push to the left to further scare voters into standing by them as they lurch evermore to the right and get more undemocratic.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2018 at 22:10
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

If I may, that's a good dodge, micky.  His question wasn't about why Democrats weren't voting anti-war but why they didn't stand up for the principles you claimed they possessed.  It is well known that Clinton had voted for the Iraq war and there are many more who would like to conceal their views on the Gadaffi debacle. The point being this is all about the military industry complex that Ike had mentioned and is hardly going to go away merely by voting Democrat rather than Republican.  In the case of Trump, his lack of qualification itself should have been a good enough reason not to vote for him but Clinton's lack of discretion (like going to a coal state and saying we're getting rid of coal) for all her political experience ultimately cost her heavily.  

Sadly, if Joe Biden's son had not died at the start of the primary cycle, we would not be having this conversation. Biden would have mopped the floor with Trump during the debates. Can you imagine Trump trying to pull the same stunts with Biden as he did against Hillary? And Biden did not have the same baggage as Hillary. I would have certainly voted for him during the primaries.

you do know of course Biden wanted to run... Obama personally pressured him not to run.

As I've said.. I'd bet my paycheck that in a honest off the record moment if one asked him if he had one single regret.. one thing he could take back.. it would be rewarding Hillary for her loyalty (remember how bitter the 2008 primaries were)  and her being due and pushing Biden out of her way for the 2016 nomination. For yeah,  I think Biden would have crushed Trump in that election.

Maybe my memory is all mixed up but didn't Biden say after the election results that the issues of the working class were not the focus of the Clinton campaign?  That's probably as close as it gets to him admitting maybe he should have run.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2018 at 22:12
ahhh.. so he is the dense one then.. I thought it was very clear I wasn't talking about Democrats in general.. 

I was speaking very personality.. in how I as a Gulf War veteran took his comments
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2018 at 22:20
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

If I may, that's a good dodge, micky.  His question wasn't about why Democrats weren't voting anti-war but why they didn't stand up for the principles you claimed they possessed.  It is well known that Clinton had voted for the Iraq war and there are many more who would like to conceal their views on the Gadaffi debacle. The point being this is all about the military industry complex that Ike had mentioned and is hardly going to go away merely by voting Democrat rather than Republican.  In the case of Trump, his lack of qualification itself should have been a good enough reason not to vote for him but Clinton's lack of discretion (like going to a coal state and saying we're getting rid of coal) for all her political experience ultimately cost her heavily.  

Sadly, if Joe Biden's son had not died at the start of the primary cycle, we would not be having this conversation. Biden would have mopped the floor with Trump during the debates. Can you imagine Trump trying to pull the same stunts with Biden as he did against Hillary? And Biden did not have the same baggage as Hillary. I would have certainly voted for him during the primaries.

you do know of course Biden wanted to run... Obama personally pressured him not to run.

As I've said.. I'd bet my paycheck that in a honest off the record moment if one asked him if he had one single regret.. one thing he could take back.. it would be rewarding Hillary for her loyalty (remember how bitter the 2008 primaries were)  and her being due and pushing Biden out of her way for the 2016 nomination. For yeah,  I think Biden would have crushed Trump in that election.

Maybe my memory is all mixed up but didn't Biden say after the election results that the issues of the working class were not the focus of the Clinton campaign?  That's probably as close as it gets to him admitting maybe he should have run.

yeah... as we discovered after the election.. Hillary ignored a lot of advice and warnings that she wasn't playing the gender race card too far and was ignoring the white working class in the midwest.  I suppose if anyone would have known she was making a campaigning error regarding them it would be Biden as that is exactly the branch of the party he appeals strongest to and yeah, he would have likely have swung at least 5 states away from Trump and blown him away....

that Obama was involved with Biden not running and why... hasn't exactly been common knowledge..  or was simply drowned out by the aftermath of Trump winning.. but it was reported by those in the know...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2018 at 06:07
so it looks like it is game on in the Senate this week... might just have to tune into that on CSpan radio...

unless she comes off as a complete loon..  I don't see how she doesn't sink his nomination. The Republicans really are playing with fire here...


Edited by micky - September 23 2018 at 06:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2018 at 10:04
Democrats are not actually weak, it was just that Trump took advantage of jobs situation in rust belts. Hillary talkedabout free education and new careers. They just wanted the same old sh*t jobs. And Trump made the hillbillies and Bible thumpers and himself a “we”. The they were “foreigners” and liberals.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2018 at 14:04
At the end of the day what's so troubling is the clear and undeniable appeal a Donald Trump has to such a vast swath of the American public.   It is so very disappointing and mind-boggling, and yet true.   I agree with micky and have myself been saying it for a long time: It ain't Trump, it's the people that voted for him.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2018 at 15:32
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

At the end of the day what's so troubling is the clear and undeniable appeal a Donald Trump has to such a vast swath of the American public.   It is so very disappointing and mind-boggling, and yet true.   I agree with micky and have myself been saying it for a long time: It ain't Trump, it's the people that voted for him.

Having grown up in the Detroit area, I will say there has been a latent (and sometimes downright up front) bigotry that runs through the fabric of society in Southeast Michigan. But bigotry or not, the Democrats held the majority for decades after the riots due to the staunch unionism in the area, but with the gradual erosion of unions there are now huge areas of white neo-cons, still not college educated but working non-union jobs, hating unions and Democrats (Macomb County and southwest Michigan around the home of the ultra-conservative DeVos family in Grand Rapids, for instance), and prone to the pro-white, nationalistic, xenophobic rhetoric repeated over and over by Trump. Hillary, a bad candidate to begin with, was demonized further by Trump and his Russian media machine, and Trump managed some electoral votes by a few thousand racists.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2018 at 01:32
I happened to be in the States for a fortnight long trip and left a week back. Had an interesting experience pertaining to Mr Orange while there (in DC). Will write about it when captcha cooperates. But I wanted to mention Hillbilly Elegy which I picked up at a B&N there. He too mentions the undercurrent of racial prejudice (in Ohio) which isn't always there but comes to the fore say when somebody in the family marries a black person. Also mentions how with the plunging of the Midwest economy, the people have become very disillusioned and lost trust in mainstream media, choosing instead in believing in things like the Birther conspiracy theory.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2018 at 04:04
I don't usually do this type of speculative spouting, but I think that the Muller probe has hit a dead end as far as clearly evidential proof of Trump-Russia collusion and that's why the NY Times released the Rosenstein "wear a wire" story. The NYTs has a vendetta against the Donald so I don't see any other reason for them doing it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2018 at 11:06
^ You are probably correct Steve, but I thought that several people close to Trump (his son...Kushner, etc) already admitted a while ago they met with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton.? Isn't that in itself illegal....consorting with foreign nationals during a federal election.,.? Why doesn't Mueller hang them for that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2018 at 10:44
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^ You are probably correct Steve, but I thought that several people close to Trump (his son...Kushner, etc) already admitted a while ago they met with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton.? Isn't that in itself illegal....consorting with foreign nationals during a federal election.,.? Why doesn't Mueller hang them for that?
I don't recall the particulars Doc. It's probably due to not being able to connect Donald Trump directly with his douche bag son's intent.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2018 at 10:49
Speaking of douche bags, after the GOP majority leader Mitch McConnell claimed that Dr. Ford's actions are all part of a plan by her and the Dems to "smear" Kavanaugh, she is upset by the allegations and there's once again doubt to her testifying on Thursday. Amazing!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2018 at 13:17
Well....I find it hard to think she made up this tale up out of nothing....yet one wonders about the timing of it all. My best guess is that something did happen at that party but it was so long ago neither person can recall the correct details. And unless he went beyond just a grope....it's the kind of things that teenagers did when drunk back then. It's hard to believe she is still 'traumatized' years later. BTW..not giving him a pass but it seems a bit overblown with all this 'Me too' stuff.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2018 at 13:22
Wasn't he a problem drinker who'd lose control when partying?   At least according to his college roommate (who would know).

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