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floyd4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floyd4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog elitists
    Posted: February 15 2017 at 13:27
I have friends that call Pink Floyd trash and "entry level music" and say that thrash metal is bad and simple because they can play the guitar riff easily. Obviously none of this makes sense, but if you've said this and still say these things, let me explain a few things.

1. There is no such thing as "entry level" music- Music is not an elite club, every band is on an equal level of being music-makers. 
2. Just because a riff is uncomplex, doesn't make a song stupid or simple- Atom Heart Mother had a pretty simple riff, Aqualung has a simple riff, In the Court of the Crimson king has a simple riff. (by riff I mean melody.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 14:09
^ Tell said friends to get a life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 14:12
Elitism is bad and it's in every genre. I hate it
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 15:09
Your friends are trying to find a niche in something that is entirely personal. They will grow at a different rate and regard than you.
There is no act more pretentious and self-indulgent than labeling another's art as pretentious and self-indulgent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 15:52
I shudder at the thought of David Gilmour's exquisite guitar playing being likened to "entry level" music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 16:18
I just started a thread about what passes for prog these days. I think some people are more elitist than others. Some people don't consider Rush or Pink Floyd to be prog. I've heard people say the Moody Blues and Kansas aren't prog either. I suppose everyone has their own definition. I'm against musical elitism(or really any kind for that matter). If they think Pink Floyd is entry level I wonder what they think of punk rock. I bet some of them like it (those hypocrites). It makes no sense. Not sure if every musician is equal but at some point it becomes silly to try to say who's better or who's a virtuoso and who isn't etc. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 17:42
Originally posted by floyd4 floyd4 wrote:

I have friends that call Pink Floyd trash and "entry level music" and say that thrash metal is bad and simple because they can play the guitar riff easily. Obviously none of this makes sense, but if you've said this and still say these things, let me explain a few things.

1. There is no such thing as "entry level" music- Music is not an elite club, every band is on an equal level of being music-makers. 
2. Just because a riff is uncomplex, doesn't make a song stupid or simple- Atom Heart Mother had a pretty simple riff, Aqualung has a simple riff, In the Court of the Crimson king has a simple riff. (by riff I mean melody.)

If there's something I hate is complexity for the sake of complexity, that's why I can't resist more than 5 minutes of Gentle Giant.

Music must be complex only if complexity plays a role in the track and flows naturally, not just to say "Look how difficult to understand is what I play".


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 15 2017 at 17:46
            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 17:54
I can't say I've ever understood the stigma surrounding complexity, different types of music with different intentions use different materials 
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 18:14
Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

I can't say I've ever understood the stigma surrounding complexity, different types of music with different intentions use different materials 

There's no stigma.

If I didn't like complexity I would listened disco instead of Prog.

But complexity needs a logic, a reason, not just to prove you can do what nobody can or dare.
            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larkstongue41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 18:51
Guys, let's face it... there actually is some kind of an objective 'musical merit hierarchy' and Pink Floyd is nowhere near the top. Now let me explain myself before jumping at me. I get as well as anybody else that music is a subjective thing, but I would argue that it is not entirely subjective. Call me elitist if you want but I sincerely believe it is possible to some extent to classify different musical acts in terms of musical richness. I'm not speaking about "complexity" but about fluid musical development and innovation. Putting aside subjective biases, there is no way on Earth I could put bands like, say King Crimson and Asia on the same level. I think all of you are also able to objectively say that some bands deserve more praise than others. 

That being said, I'm far from meaning that Pink Floyd is inferior and that it should not be enjoyed as much as other bands. Hell, I listen to some stuff that I consider to be of low musical value but I can still get emotions out of it. I'm certainly among the rare ones on this forum who likes people like Elton John, the Ramones (and punk rock in general), Cage the ElephantEmbarrassed, Fleetwood Mac and many others.


Edited by Larkstongue41 - February 15 2017 at 18:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 19:01
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by floyd4 floyd4 wrote:

I have friends that call Pink Floyd trash and "entry level music" and say that thrash metal is bad and simple because they can play the guitar riff easily. Obviously none of this makes sense, but if you've said this and still say these things, let me explain a few things.

1. There is no such thing as "entry level" music- Music is not an elite club, every band is on an equal level of being music-makers. 
2. Just because a riff is uncomplex, doesn't make a song stupid or simple- Atom Heart Mother had a pretty simple riff, Aqualung has a simple riff, In the Court of the Crimson king has a simple riff. (by riff I mean melody.)

If there's something I hate is complexity for the sake of complexity, that's why I can't resist more than 5 minutes of Gentle Giant.

Music must be complex only if complexity plays a role in the track and flows naturally, not just to say "Look how difficult to understand is what I play".

Gentle Giant is a good example. I actually used to think it was showing off. The band did not see it that way though. They weren't making music to say "Hey, look at us. We can do this and you can't. Na na na." Apparently that wasn't their motivation. I don't know if it was complexity for complexities sake either. For them it served the music. It needs to serve the music. That's the important thing. It's going to be subjective because one person's honest music is someone else's pomposity and pretentious bs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 19:22
Originally posted by Larkstongue41 Larkstongue41 wrote:

Guys, let's face it... there actually is some kind of an objective 'musical merit hierarchy' and Pink Floyd is nowhere near the top. Now let me explain myself before jumping at me. I get as well as anybody else that music is a subjective thing, but I would argue that it is not entirely subjective. Call me elitist if you want but I sincerely believe it is possible to some extent to classify different musical acts in terms of musical richness. I'm not speaking about "complexity" but about fluid musical development and innovation. Putting aside subjective biases, there is no way on Earth I could put bands like, say King Crimson and Asia on the same level. I think all of you are also able to objectively say that some bands deserve more praise than others. 
 
Oh, I do agree with that, especially the second point. Crimson's prog and Asia's rock, and that's the barebones breakdown.
 
I do rate ELP, Yes, Tull, Crimson, Genesis, (especially) Renaissance, Goblin, Kansas, Todd Rundgren's Utopia and MANY other bands above Floyd. To be frank, if you removed Gilmour from Floyd, they would be a far less interesting band to me, especially since "Comfortably Numb" was originally penned for Dave's first solo. And I like Eloy a helluva lot more than Floyd, anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 19:23
Originally posted by Larkstongue41 Larkstongue41 wrote:

Guys, let's face it... there actually is some kind of an objective 'musical merit hierarchy' and Pink Floyd is nowhere near the top. Now let me explain myself before jumping at me. I get as well as anybody else that music is a subjective thing, but I would argue that it is not entirely subjective. Call me elitist if you want but I sincerely believe it is possible to some extent to classify different musical acts in terms of musical richness. I'm not speaking about "complexity" but about fluid musical development and innovation. Putting aside subjective biases, there is no way on Earth I could put bands like, say King Crimson and Asia on the same level. I think all of you are also able to objectively say that some bands deserve more praise than others. 

That being said, I'm far from meaning that Pink Floyd is inferior and that it should not be enjoyed as much as other bands. Hell, I listen to some stuff that I consider to be of low musical value but I can still get emotions out of it. I'm certainly among the rare ones on this forum who likes people like Elton John, the Ramones (and punk rock in general), Cage the ElephantEmbarrassed, Fleetwood Mac and many others.

One can distinguish between subjective subjectivity and subjective objectivity but subjective objectivity is still subjective. The only way to make it look really objective is to say something like "I think all of us agree that..." and honestly, how strong is that?

By the way, I think the distinction is still a useful one and I use it from time to time thinking or saying that "this or that I don't like, but in a review I'd rate it positively because...". Weird but true.


Edited by Lewian - February 15 2017 at 19:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2017 at 22:42
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by floyd4 floyd4 wrote:

I have friends that call Pink Floyd trash and "entry level music" and say that thrash metal is bad and simple because they can play the guitar riff easily. Obviously none of this makes sense, but if you've said this and still say these things, let me explain a few things.

1. There is no such thing as "entry level" music- Music is not an elite club, every band is on an equal level of being music-makers. 
2. Just because a riff is uncomplex, doesn't make a song stupid or simple- Atom Heart Mother had a pretty simple riff, Aqualung has a simple riff, In the Court of the Crimson king has a simple riff. (by riff I mean melody.)


If there's something I hate is complexity for the sake of complexity, that's why I can't resist more than 5 minutes of Gentle Giant.

Music must be complex only if complexity plays a role in the track and flows naturally, not just to say "Look how difficult to understand is what I play".



Gentle Giant is a good example. I actually used to think it was showing off. The band did not see it that way though. They weren't making music to say "Hey, look at us. We can do this and you can't. Na na na." Apparently that wasn't their motivation. I don't know if it was complexity for complexities sake either. For them it served the music. It needs to serve the music. That's the important thing. It's going to be subjective because one person's honest music is someone else's pomposity and pretentious bs. 


I'm sure it wasn't their intention to be complex for the sake of it, and it's not like GG haven't written some genuinely good songs, but I agree with Ivan in terms of how they sound to me. It's like scientific prog rock without much emotion. At times they sound awkward and contrived to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2017 at 00:57
I think there was a thread with exactly the same title. Probably in 2010, more or less.
I remember to have actually written that I'm more an etilist than an elitist...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2017 at 03:29
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I think there was a thread with exactly the same title. Probably in 2010, more or less.
I remember to have actually written that I'm more an etilist than an elitist...

Found it, but this thread is locked. Too bad that I cannot think of a proper translation of the word "etilist" which seems to be derived from French Confused.


Edited by someone_else - February 16 2017 at 03:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2017 at 03:40
And it was 2010 !! I'm surprised by my own memory...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2017 at 04:07

Just play your friend Ummagumma or Wish You Here and ask him to try to explain his point to you again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Modrigue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2017 at 04:13
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Edited by Modrigue - February 16 2017 at 04:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2017 at 04:55
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

I can't say I've ever understood the stigma surrounding complexity, different types of music with different intentions use different materials 

There's no stigma.

If I didn't like complexity I would listened disco instead of Prog.

But complexity needs a logic, a reason, not just to prove you can do what nobody can or dare.

Sounds like anti-complexity elitism to me Wink
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