Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Prog elitists
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Prog elitists

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 8>
Author
Message
 Rating: Topic Rating: 1 Votes, Average 4.00  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Shiny globe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: January 18 2017
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shiny globe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 09:27
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Shiny globe Shiny globe wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I clearly said it was my opinion.

No...

"And that is my opinion".  I wrote that in the post which you responded to, did I not?

"There is nothing that GG's complexity helps them express that Pink Floyd cannot."  feels similar to me to posting "1+1=x" Definitely not a statement offered as an "opinion" even if 15 lines later you call everything you post an opinion.

x=46




Back to Top
CapnBearbossa View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: May 11 2016
Location: Baltimore
Status: Offline
Points: 57
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnBearbossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 12:48
Frank Zappa said, "writing about music is like dancing about architecture". That's because it is often difficult to come to an understanding of someone else's musical tastes through the indirect mechanism of describing music in human language. It isn't always true, of course; people can find meaning and mutual understanding in discussions of music.  It's when you introduce the idea an elite form of art (with all the implications of things-other-than-that being inferior) that you force devolution of proceedings into an "us and them" style discourse: Prog vs. Punk , Classical (or Jazz) vs. Everything Else -- you name it, it's been done.

So it's been done to death, but the Gentle Giant and Pink Floyd argument is a "soulful vs. mathematical" debate.  Not that GG is purely the one and PF is purely the other, but in a way they heavily embody those extremes. If you're looking for the one aspect and feel like excluding the other one, you will gravitate to the one pole and away from the other.  Personally I've found joy in listening to the music of both groups.  Maybe not within the same fifteen minutes, but you know ... as mood dictates.

If you find yourself involved in too many fights to be comfortable, a wise man once said, "do the opposite". ... and the opposite of elitism is open-mindedness.  Remember also that progressive music ( the reason we're ostensibly here ) is synonymous with doing new things, and hearing and opening yourself to a variety of influences.  You cannot be purist / elitist about prog, it's a contradiction in terms.


Edited by CapnBearbossa - February 17 2017 at 12:50
Will higher mighty force redeem
the one who dropped the moral compass,
failed to fulfill the dream?
-Ian Anderson
Back to Top
HackettFan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 4962
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 14:49
Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

If you find yourself involved in too many fights to be comfortable, a wise man once said, "do the opposite". ... and the opposite of elitism is open-mindedness.  Remember also that progressive music ( the reason we're ostensibly here ) is synonymous with doing new things, and hearing and opening yourself to a variety of influences.  You cannot be purist / elitist about prog, it's a contradiction in terms.


The irony is that your post (partially quoted here) is very elitist. We may agree about the importance of incorporating a variety of influences. Implicit in this is that forms of Blues music, for instance, which have a purist ethos should not be so highly valued. Like you I accept the Prog ethos, but it is definitely a form of elitism and what I'm saying is that that's okay. There's no null option.

P.S. You incorrectly use 'purist' and 'elitist' as synonym. They are not. I treated them as distinct in my post, whatever that does to the detriment of our communication.
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator

Crossover Team

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 7317
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 17:52
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


I'll keep this short. You're right that it's your opinion and i totally respect anyone's opinion. But are you a musician? If you were you would understand the elements into music construction that can clearly be ranked hierarchically by complexity including but not limited to time signature deviations, polyrhythmic assembly, disharmony and dissonance, compositional meandering etc. Did i say that any particular band is better than another because of this? Absolutely not. It's all about subjective tastes but as far as comprehending the complexity of music can be measured 

I am well aware of say GG's use of time sig changes, dissonance among many other things.  But where I completely disagree with you is in using these building blocks alone to place one band above the other in a hierarchy.  No, to me, the effect that is achieved by these tools is also important.  And I don't mean by this that I have to like the effect in order to rank the band higher in the hierarchy.  For example, I would have no problem in ranking VDGG (and I am no fan of their music to be clear) above Floyd in the hierarchy because they are well rounded - the musicians are outstanding, the music is evidently much more complex than Floyd and the singer is one of the greatest in prog.  VDGG seem to genuinely aspire to a higher aesthetic.  It seems from reading what the band themselves had to say that GG too did so but imo they eventually failed to get there and only used a much more roundabout way to get to the same effect as Floyd.  At least among the big name prog rock bands, I don't know of any other that can approach VDGG's standard  except Lake-KC and that was just two albums at the end of the day.  So I wouldn't want to make that the baseline by which Floyd is decided to be 'only' entry level prog.  Yes, it is a gateway prog band because it is easier for people not exposed to prog to get into.  But that is ultimately the difference between them and most of the well known prog rock bands - one of accessibility and (relative) inaccessibility.  Not many prog rock bands have actually used these tools to create music itself of a higher level.  "It's only rock and roll".


Edited by rogerthat - February 17 2017 at 20:10
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator

Crossover Team

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 7317
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 17:53
Originally posted by Shiny globe Shiny globe wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Shiny globe Shiny globe wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I clearly said it was my opinion.

No...

"And that is my opinion".  I wrote that in the post which you responded to, did I not?

"There is nothing that GG's complexity helps them express that Pink Floyd cannot."  feels similar to me to posting "1+1=x" Definitely not a statement offered as an "opinion" even if 15 lines later you call everything you post an opinion.

x=46





And since when is 'express' a tangible concept that can be described objectively?  Again, pl understand the full import of the sentence.  If you want to continue this semiotic nonsense, I am out.
Back to Top
CapnBearbossa View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: May 11 2016
Location: Baltimore
Status: Offline
Points: 57
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnBearbossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 19:07
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

If you find yourself involved in too many fights to be comfortable, a wise man once said, "do the opposite". ... and the opposite of elitism is open-mindedness.  Remember also that progressive music ( the reason we're ostensibly here ) is synonymous with doing new things, and hearing and opening yourself to a variety of influences.  You cannot be purist / elitist about prog, it's a contradiction in terms.

The irony is that your post (partially quoted here) is very elitist. We may agree about the importance of incorporating a variety of influences. Implicit in this is that forms of Blues music, for instance, which have a purist ethos should not be so highly valued. Like you I accept the Prog ethos, but it is definitely a form of elitism and what I'm saying is that that's okay. There's no null option.

P.S. You incorrectly use 'purist' and 'elitist' as synonym. They are not. I treated them as distinct in my post, whatever that does to the detriment of our communication.


I really intended to argue that exclusionist tactics are counterproductive and self-defeating in the area of music appreciation.  Is is elitist to make that point? It doesn't seem so, to me.  I think of Progressive Rock's approach as having less to do with adhering to a fixed standard and more to do with moving toward universality. It's a philosophy that sees music as a wider framework of rules in which to work than most genre forms of music operate.  Prog is a non-genre form, if you like. One in which, for example, celtic folk and blues influences can be combined together -- without blurring either one beyond  recognizability -- to make something new, unique and stylistically cohesive, like Jethro Tull's Stand Up album.

If I could maybe point to an analog, in the area of languages. The Academie Francaise is a group of purist scholars who want to preserve the French language by excluding influences from outside.  The reality is the wider world, in which dialects like Cajun and Louisiana Creole French exist and are free to borrow (within a looser set of rules) from other cultural and linguistic sources.  My original post was in the spirit of, hey, let's learn to appreciate both the pristine and proper French (like those pure forms of Blues you mentioned) as well as the patois - that is, the strains of blues you can sometimes hear in prog alongside other influences.



Edited by CapnBearbossa - February 17 2017 at 20:20
Will higher mighty force redeem
the one who dropped the moral compass,
failed to fulfill the dream?
-Ian Anderson
Back to Top
Thatfabulousalien View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 27 2016
Location: Aussie/NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 1334
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 19:16
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE & JR/F/Canterbury Teams

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 3397
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 20:23

I am well aware of say GG's use of time sig changes, dissonance among many other things.  But where I completely disagree with you is in using these building blocks alone to place one band above the other in a hierarchy.  No, to me, the effect that is achieved by these tools is also important.  And I don't mean by this that I have to like the effect in order to rank the band higher in the hierarchy.  For example, I would have no problem in ranking VDGG (and I am no fan of their music to be clear) above Floyd in the hierarchy because they are well rounded - the musicians are outstanding, the music is evidently much more complex than Floyd and the singer is one of the greatest in prog.  VDGG seem to genuinely aspire to a higher aesthetic.  It seems from reading what the band themselves had to say that GG too did so but imo they eventually failed to get there and only used a much more roundabout way to get to the same effect as Floyd.  At least among the big name prog rock bands, I don't know of any other that can approach VDGG's standard  except Lake-KC and that was just two albums at the end of the day.  So I wouldn't want to make that the baseline by which Floyd is decided to be 'only' entry level prog.  Yes, it is a gateway prog band because it is easier for people not exposed to prog to get into.  But that is ultimately the difference between them and most of the well known prog rock bands - one of accessibility and (relative) inaccessibility.  Not many prog rock bands have actually used these tools to create music itself of a higher level.  "It's only rock and roll".
[/QUOTE]

The effect IMHO is irrelevant. I'm not talking about personal responses to music but rather detectable hierarchical complexities. My only point is that not everyone understands complexities because they haven't conditioned themselves to understand them. There is often a cry of "emotional" disregard for music and emotions like intellect can evolve and be taken to higher levels. I'm simply tired of hearing the argument that because someone doesn't understand where certain music is coming from, then it must be "elitist." Music IS a form of mathematics so to claim it's not is to have a philosophical deficiency of understanding. What i have discovered over the years is that developing your intellect has a proportional relationship to devloping your emotional response if you strive to keep such things in balance. What i once deemed as "noise" or "incomprehensible" has been revealed to be ingenious. This happened because i realized there were greater powers in the universe and that they had latched onto things out of my reality. Denial only prevents evolution into these experiences. Just my 2cents worth. I have to admit that i'm obsessed with understanding things that seem incomprehensible but the effort has paid off

Rooms of mushrooms rarely mush too much
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator

Crossover Team

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 7317
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 20:36
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


The effect IMHO is irrelevant. I'm not talking about personal responses to music but rather detectable hierarchical complexities. My only point is that not everyone understands complexities because they haven't conditioned themselves to understand them.

Fair enough but you would be well served to stop presuming so much.  I know enough about music to recognise a Bach bourree or a Coltrane/Miles reference when I hear it.  And that's a good enough 'level' (which seems to be your favourite word) to judge most prog rock music.
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

 I'm simply tired of hearing the argument that because someone doesn't understand where certain music is coming from, then it must be "elitist."

Have you considered that perhaps a lot of prog rock isn't so unimpeachable that it would be impossible to like some non prog music more than prog even if you did understand what prog rock tries to accomplish?  Give me one good reason why I am supposed to rate an Innervisions over Acquiring the Taste?
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Music IS a form of mathematics so to claim it's not is to have a philosophical deficiency of understanding.
 I said it is not just maths.  There is a difference between that and "claiming it is not a form of mathematics".  On that note, I find that, like your comrade in prog elitism, you are too impatient to actually read and comprehend what I have said and draw false inferences, a habit that I find both disrespectful and irritating as f**k, esp when the person doing so claims to possess a higher level of appreciation (which sadly doesn't allow him to read properly, apparently!).  So I am out.  I am unfollowing this thread forthwith.  You may respond if you are particularly obsessed with the pleasure of having the last word.  Otherwise, don't bother, I am not going to read it.

 
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE & JR/F/Canterbury Teams

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 3397
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 20:59
^ You can't ask a question in part 2 and then condemn someone for responding in part 3. Illogical. Au contraire mon fraire. I'm the most patient person in the world and taking your words at face value. Maybe you having articulated your words to the level which is universally translated as the words you mean? I have already addressed the issues at hand and you seem oblivious. Music and all of sound comprehension is indeed mathematical. Our emotional response is a different level of intelligence and the discrepencies are a clear indicator of how in harmony with certain aspects of the universe we resonate. That includes not only living in the here and now but being able to channel emotional responses from a certain point in time that may not resonate throughout in contemporary history. You may not read this but others will. I don't think you're diggin' where i'm coming from so -- never mind
Rooms of mushrooms rarely mush too much
Back to Top
Thatfabulousalien View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 27 2016
Location: Aussie/NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 1334
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 21:36
Exactly what people need to get their heads around, music by very definition is mathematical. The technicalities of of soundwaves, inter-note relationships, manipulations of melodic fragments (inversions for example), aren't a contradiction of emotion. Emotion is the way we interpret the sounds we hear, even the most complex music ever written will have an emotional impact; just as the most slow-paced minimalist piece will also have an emotional impact Smile
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325
Back to Top
HackettFan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 4962
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 23:10
Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

If you find yourself involved in too many fights to be comfortable, a wise man once said, "do the opposite". ... and the opposite of elitism is open-mindedness.  Remember also that progressive music ( the reason we're ostensibly here ) is synonymous with doing new things, and hearing and opening yourself to a variety of influences.  You cannot be purist / elitist about prog, it's a contradiction in terms.

The irony is that your post (partially quoted here) is very elitist. We may agree about the importance of incorporating a variety of influences. Implicit in this is that forms of Blues music, for instance, which have a purist ethos should not be so highly valued. Like you I accept the Prog ethos, but it is definitely a form of elitism and what I'm saying is that that's okay. There's no null option.

P.S. You incorrectly use 'purist' and 'elitist' as synonym. They are not. I treated them as distinct in my post, whatever that does to the detriment of our communication.


I really intended to argue that exclusionist tactics are counterproductive and self-defeating in the area of music appreciation.  Is is elitist to make that point? It doesn't seem so, to me. 

Yes, yes it is. Quite. You distinguish yourself from elitism, so you're hypothetically going to try to convince someone who considers Prog Rock elitist that you're not elitist because you (may hypothetically) like Pink Floyd in addition to Gentle Giant? Sorry, that won't fly with anyone who holds that view of Prog. I'm really taking issue with the use of the word 'elitist'. Many have made the point that there are many ways to measure musical merit. That is true. I embrace that. What many in this thread have missed is that there are many ways to measure elitism. If you think you are taking a position that is not elitist, I assure you that there is another perspective out there in the void which says that you are. I have heard/seen this word used over and over as an insult to be hurled. I say either accept and use the word proudly without negative connotation or ditch it because it applies to everyone in one fashion or another. One doesn't have to apologize for what they value because what they value makes them supposedly "elitist". Simply educate them about the qualities you elevate, or educate yourself about the qualities they may differently elevate. If someone values mathematics of music over all other aspects, it seems to me they can do that quite freely even if you don't. There is something called Math Rock after all.

Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

I think of Progressive Rock's approach as having less to do with adhering to a fixed standard and more to do with moving toward universality. It's a philosophy that sees music as a wider framework of rules in which to work than most genre forms of music operate.  Prog is a non-genre form, if you like. One in which, for example, celtic folk and blues influences can be combined together -- without blurring either one beyond  recognizability -- to make something new, unique and stylistically cohesive, like Jethro Tull's Stand Up album.
Great. Although I agree that this an important consideration, it is not for me the primary consideration in what makes up Prog. For me, the most essential property of is experimentation with timbre. This is the thing which motivates me. So, if, for example, Adrian Belew's album, Desire Caught By the Tail does not combine many different styles, it is still a great example of Prog for me, because experiments wildly with timbre (and I might consider you an elitist if you don't agree). Steve Hackett, of whom I am obviously a big fan, I think, would actually describe Prog as primarily being about breaking down genre boundaries, as you described. I do have a high regard for what he's done in this regard, however he is also well known for bringing novel sounds out of a guitar, and this explains not simply whether I appreciate Steve Hackett, but more meaningfully, the primary reason why, a reason that may be different from another Hackett fan.

Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

If I could maybe point to an analog, in the area of languages. The Academie Francaise is a group of purist scholars who want to preserve the French language by excluding influences from outside.  The reality is the wider world, in which dialects like Cajun and Louisiana Creole French exist and are free to borrow (within a looser set of rules) from other cultural and linguistic sources.  My original post was in the spirit of, hey, let's learn to appreciate both the pristine and proper French (like those pure forms of Blues you mentioned) as well as the patois - that is, the strains of blues you can sometimes hear in prog alongside other influences.
Sure. Great analogy (and I'm a linguist, BTW). Definitely an example of something that gives one a different answer depending on what perspective is taken. I can't see anything negative about preserving any form of a language, being one who has dealt directly with language endangerment. The prevailing tide will be what the French speakers do irrespective of what any particular person desires. Many bilingual speakers of languages broadly throughout the world freely mix and borrow foreign elements. In Comanche, the language I work with, there is very little of this (true also of other languages throughout the Great Plains region of the US). They either speak Comanche or they don't, leaving the language fairly pristine. So, are they elitists?

P.S. Sorry for the shifting pronouns. I wrote this on an iPhone!




Edited by HackettFan - February 17 2017 at 23:36
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE & JR/F/Canterbury Teams

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 3397
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2017 at 06:12
Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Exactly what people need to get their heads around, music by very definition is mathematical. The technicalities of of soundwaves, inter-note relationships, manipulations of melodic fragments (inversions for example), aren't a contradiction of emotion. Emotion is the way we interpret the sounds we hear, even the most complex music ever written will have an emotional impact; just as the most slow-paced minimalist piece will also have an emotional impact Smile

Well said Clap
Rooms of mushrooms rarely mush too much
Back to Top
Kepler62 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 09 2017
Location: Fort Erie
Status: Offline
Points: 417
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kepler62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2017 at 06:58
I dunno. I like Ketchup on French toast. I like King Crimson. I eat and listen to what I like. I don't understand the point of this thread. To each his own if you want to confine yourself to music that is only written in 11/9 then do it. If you want to do crystal meth and light yourself on fire then do it. I honestly don't worry about what anyone else does.  I happen to like Star Trek (TOS ) but hate all the others. So what. Do your own thing man.Confused
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE & JR/F/Canterbury Teams

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 3397
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2017 at 07:03
^ Ketchup on French toast? What's wrong with you? LOL
Rooms of mushrooms rarely mush too much
Back to Top
CapnBearbossa View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: May 11 2016
Location: Baltimore
Status: Offline
Points: 57
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnBearbossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2017 at 09:02
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

If you find yourself involved in too many fights to be comfortable, a wise man once said, "do the opposite". ... and the opposite of elitism is open-mindedness.  Remember also that progressive music ( the reason we're ostensibly here ) is synonymous with doing new things, and hearing and opening yourself to a variety of influences.  You cannot be purist / elitist about prog, it's a contradiction in terms.

The irony is that your post (partially quoted here) is very elitist. We may agree about the importance of incorporating a variety of influences. Implicit in this is that forms of Blues music, for instance, which have a purist ethos should not be so highly valued. Like you I accept the Prog ethos, but it is definitely a form of elitism and what I'm saying is that that's okay. There's no null option.

P.S. You incorrectly use 'purist' and 'elitist' as synonym. They are not. I treated them as distinct in my post, whatever that does to the detriment of our communication.


I really intended to argue that exclusionist tactics are counterproductive and self-defeating in the area of music appreciation.  Is is elitist to make that point? It doesn't seem so, to me. 

Yes, yes it is. Quite. You distinguish yourself from elitism, so you're hypothetically going to try to convince someone who considers Prog Rock elitist that you're not elitist because you (may hypothetically) like Pink Floyd in addition to Gentle Giant? Sorry, that won't fly with anyone who holds that view of Prog. I'm really taking issue with the use of the word 'elitist'. Many have made the point that there are many ways to measure musical merit. That is true. I embrace that. What many in this thread have missed is that there are many ways to measure elitism. If you think you are taking a position that is not elitist, I assure you that there is another perspective out there in the void which says that you are. I have heard/seen this word used over and over as an insult to be hurled. I say either accept and use the word proudly without negative connotation or ditch it because it applies to everyone in one fashion or another. One doesn't have to apologize for what they value because what they value makes them supposedly "elitist". Simply educate them about the qualities you elevate, or educate yourself about the qualities they may differently elevate. If someone values mathematics of music over all other aspects, it seems to me they can do that quite freely even if you don't. There is something called Math Rock after all.

Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

I think of Progressive Rock's approach as having less to do with adhering to a fixed standard and more to do with moving toward universality. It's a philosophy that sees music as a wider framework of rules in which to work than most genre forms of music operate.  Prog is a non-genre form, if you like. One in which, for example, celtic folk and blues influences can be combined together -- without blurring either one beyond  recognizability -- to make something new, unique and stylistically cohesive, like Jethro Tull's Stand Up album.
Great. Although I agree that this an important consideration, it is not for me the primary consideration in what makes up Prog. For me, the most essential property of is experimentation with timbre. This is the thing which motivates me. So, if, for example, Adrian Belew's album, Desire Caught By the Tail does not combine many different styles, it is still a great example of Prog for me, because experiments wildly with timbre (and I might consider you an elitist if you don't agree). Steve Hackett, of whom I am obviously a big fan, I think, would actually describe Prog as primarily being about breaking down genre boundaries, as you described. I do have a high regard for what he's done in this regard, however he is also well known for bringing novel sounds out of a guitar, and this explains not simply whether I appreciate Steve Hackett, but more meaningfully, the primary reason why, a reason that may be different from another Hackett fan.

Originally posted by CapnBearbossa CapnBearbossa wrote:

If I could maybe point to an analog, in the area of languages. The Academie Francaise is a group of purist scholars who want to preserve the French language by excluding influences from outside.  The reality is the wider world, in which dialects like Cajun and Louisiana Creole French exist and are free to borrow (within a looser set of rules) from other cultural and linguistic sources.  My original post was in the spirit of, hey, let's learn to appreciate both the pristine and proper French (like those pure forms of Blues you mentioned) as well as the patois - that is, the strains of blues you can sometimes hear in prog alongside other influences.
Sure. Great analogy (and I'm a linguist, BTW). Definitely an example of something that gives one a different answer depending on what perspective is taken. I can't see anything negative about preserving any form of a language, being one who has dealt directly with language endangerment. The prevailing tide will be what the French speakers do irrespective of what any particular person desires. Many bilingual speakers of languages broadly throughout the world freely mix and borrow foreign elements. In Comanche, the language I work with, there is very little of this (true also of other languages throughout the Great Plains region of the US). They either speak Comanche or they don't, leaving the language fairly pristine. So, are they elitists?

P.S. Sorry for the shifting pronouns. I wrote this on an iPhone!




You make many good points sir.  I shall take them in and remember to be more secure in my elitism, in the future. (Good call, by the way . I have been elitist all my life, though I love to deny it in print. Otherwise I would not be such a fan of progressive rock, in all probability.)

Also, let the record show that I, too, am a fan of Steve Hackett. Smile



Edited by CapnBearbossa - February 18 2017 at 09:42
Will higher mighty force redeem
the one who dropped the moral compass,
failed to fulfill the dream?
-Ian Anderson
Back to Top
Lewian View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 839
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2017 at 09:04
Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Exactly what people need to get their heads around, music by very definition is mathematical. The technicalities of of soundwaves, inter-note relationships, manipulations of melodic fragments (inversions for example), aren't a contradiction of emotion. Emotion is the way we interpret the sounds we hear, even the most complex music ever written will have an emotional impact; just as the most slow-paced minimalist piece will also have an emotional impact Smile

Quote Music IS a form of mathematics

I'd disagree, and I think that this would be a very interesting topic for discussion. Obviously it doesn't only depend on what music "really" is but also what constitutes mathematics for you. Talking about sound waves, for example, waves are everywhere, if one would say that "all waves are mathematics", pretty much everything would be mathematics, and then there wouldn't be much in saying that "music is mathematics"; certainly one couldn't build an argument regarding hierarchies, complexity etc. on it. The issue then rather would be to what extent all nature and culture is mathematics, and this doesn't have much to do with music in particular.

I'd rather say that sound waves are mathematics to the extent to which there is conscious mathematical construction of sound wave structure, and conscious perception of it. This does exist, certainly electronic music pioneers constructed sounds in a mathematical way, but usually mathematics is sidestepped when producing and perceiving sounds, and to the extent to which it is, there isn't much to be gained from posterior mathematical analysis.

Surely conscious mathematical construction and appreciation of structure happens on the level of composition, some aspects of music can understood in this way, but this isn't ubiquituous either. Much of free jazz and also some of avantgarde electronic and sound based music is not composed in a way that could reasonably called mathematical, and neither is it heard in this way. Chances are that posterior mathematical analysis can find something in most music (rhythm for starters), but on the other hand I also believe that there's a huge amount of stuff in most music that was neither constructed nor perceived in a mathematical manner (unless one takes the boring view that all nature and culture is mathematical of course), nor does mathematics  contribute a lot to the understanding of why/how it "works" (or it doesn't).

I'd state that, although I'm somewhat interested in structure and mathematics in music and I don't see a contradiction to emotionality there either, the majority of what I am passionate about in music is not mathematical, in the sense that it was neither constructed using mathematical principles, nor do I apply such principles when listening, nor do I see much scope for a mathematical explanation of it (one could argue that mathematics works subconsciously but as long as this cannot be backed up by convincing mathematical analysis, I don't see much merit in this statement). 

And surely it's not mathematics "by definition"! Music is for the ears, mathematics isn't.
Back to Top
Tillerman88 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 313
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2017 at 12:40
Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Emotion is the way we interpret the sounds we hear, even the most complex music ever written will have an emotional impact; just as the most slow-paced minimalist piece will also have an emotional impact Smile

Hey guys, still just as a Prog newbie, as such so far from bringing something of interest here,  I just can't help but pointing to the strong intellectual appeal these minimalist pieces might have brought to whom composed them........ but I wonder what they might mean to me as a listener..........gonna be glad as well if they translate to me as joy, folly, or longing, sadness, anguish, anxiety, pain....... gonna find it out asap!  Tongue
Back to Top
Shiny globe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: January 18 2017
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shiny globe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2017 at 16:08
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

And since when is 'express' a tangible concept that can be described objectively?

In that regard, "There's no feel I get from GGs more complex music that I don't get when listening to PF" would not read like you're pretending to be able to determine a band's potential on any listener.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

And since when is 'express' a tangible concept that can be described objectively?  Again, pl understand the full import of the sentence.  If you want to continue this semiotic nonsense, I am out.

To me you're being "out" since the beginning of our exchange anyway.
Back to Top
Shiny globe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: January 18 2017
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shiny globe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2017 at 16:11
Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

[QUOTE=rogerthat][QUOTE=Larkstongue41]
OK, then. What is your explicit definition of "complexity?" 



Ah here's how they've made it sound 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 8>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.