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Has the definition of prog changed at some point?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2017 at 14:32
I don't think so, it's just there wasn't really a widespread definition of the term to being with.

And even if there was, you'd still have people saying whatever their favorite band was is prog because they like prog. :p
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2017 at 15:59
Maybe it's just that these days bands fit into more than one category. For example it seems possible(and apparently has already happened) that a band can be labelled as indie, alternative, progressive, psychedelic and experimental. I noticed that for their wikipedia entry the band Muse has about four or five different categories including prog. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 17 2017 at 14:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2017 at 21:25
I guess it was even more ambiguous, and therefore, could include more music in the 70's... at least in the early 70's. I think there was something in a Deep Purple booklet in which one of them reffered to themselves as prog... or at least put themselves among prog bands, which wouldn't be considered so now (I guess most would agree Deep Purple had some prog elements... at least sometimes, but to go as far as consider them prog...)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 03:37
Originally posted by Kingsnake Kingsnake wrote:

When I grew up, progrock didn't exist. It was called symphonic rock. And the pop-encyclopedia named bands like Queen, Saga, Alan Parsons, John Miles, Kraan, Camel, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Genesis, Supersister, ELO, Eloy, Triumvirat, Moody Blues, Procol Harum, Supertramp etc. etc.

You know, the oldies. Than suddenly the 90's appeared and the term progrock emerged and then all got lost: suddenly there was neoprog, eclectic prog, prog related, and all the subgenres.

I still tend to call it symphonic rock (the oldies) and the newer bands (Porcupine Tree, Tool, Opeth) progrock or progmetal.
And then there's all also spacerock and psychrock wich was a different ballgame and suddenly it's progrock aswell.
And then there's fusion/jazzrock that is suddenly also progrock.
 
I'm rambling again. sorry...
 
I'm not surprised at calling stuff like Queen as symphonic Rock in the NL, given the country's general liking for symphonic prog.... However, was Supersister called symphonic rock?? most likely not.
 
 
When I grew up in Toronto in the 70's, all these bands were called Art Rock... This until I +/- stopped buying pop-rock albums around 83 or so (I'd say Love Over Gold was the last one) and veered into jazzy lands (Bitches Brew and Mahavishnu and Coltrane) until roughly 91
and TBH, I'd never heard of Prog Rock until the early 90's when I came back to Europe (nor had I heard of neo-prog to describe Marillion or IQ before that as well , BTW).
 
===========
 
But you wouldn't believe the fights we had in the fiorum and behind the scenes to get bands like Procol Harum or Traffic included as prog rock. I was even insulted by some members (notably a Polish dude) because I brought "that jazz sh*t" into what they thought was  the symphonic/progressive database
 
Sooooo, I'd say that the definition of "prog" kind of really came to be in the 90's, with those new bands' creations
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hellogoodbye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 03:53
Before meeting you, guys, I did not know that the majority of the music which I listened to was progressive.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 04:07
At the risk of throwing gas on the fire (Wink) , prog definitions have been partly altered by PA's inclusion of the myriad sub genres. I for one, don't consider artists like Zappa to be prog. Futuristic, beyond the pale, inventive? Absolutely! But Zappa, RIO, and whatever the hell Capt. Beefheart is, is not prog in my book! If others enjoy them, then more power to them. Life is short and musical enjoyment people receive from these artists is fine with me. But when someone mentions the word prog to me, these artists never come immediately to my mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 05:59
Originally posted by Replayer Replayer wrote:

No, the definition of prog has not changed at all since October 10th, 1969. Smile


 
The terms "progressive" and "prog" were in use before that. Procol Harum, Pink Floyd and a few other bands were being described in those terms in 1967 to my knowledge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Replayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 09:08
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by Replayer Replayer wrote:

No, the definition of prog has not changed at all since October 10th, 1969. Smile


 
The terms "progressive" and "prog" were in use before that. Procol Harum, Pink Floyd and a few other bands were being described in those terms in 1967 to my knowledge.
I think you're overanalyzing my tongue-in-cheek remark. I meant to convey that the definition of progressive rock has always evolved by necessity, as if it didn't, then the music would have to have the same style as during the genesis of the prog movement and I chose the release date is generally accepted to be the first fully progressive rock album as the arbitrary cut-off for my comment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kepler62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 10:18
All these made up sub genres of all styles of music have muddled everything. Older musc was categorized by eras whereas the more modern music became there were more  deviations, amalgamations and mutations. I tend to like the era of progressive rock that had elves, sky wizards, journeys through time and space, fantasy etc. In other words,  the 1969-76 era. Not much after that that really had anything to do with how it all started. It just seemed to have run it's course by the mid seventies.  So there's no real definition of Prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Replayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 11:15
Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

I tend to like the era of progressive rock that had elves, sky wizards, journeys through time and space, fantasy etc. In other words,  the 1969-76 era. Not much after that that really had anything to do with how it all started. It just seemed to have run it's course by the mid seventies.  So there's no real definition of Prog.
I think you may be overstating the influence of fantasy and science fiction on prog. There was a thread a year ago called Dragons in Prog Rock and the general consensus was that fantasy and sci-fi themes were more prevalent in hard rock and metal.
 
Below is a reply from the thread:
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Actually, this cliché that prog is plagued with dragons, fantasy, and sci-fi really annoys me, and surprises me. There's really not much of those themes in prog... at least not on the top-tier bands and albums. Pink Floyd has just about none of it (well, perhaps a bit with Syd Barrett, but that's just one album).

King Crimson... well, perhaps some songs. I guess "The Court of the Crimson King"... even if it's not got dragons. I don't really remember the whole lyrics of "In the Wake of Poseidon" to get an idea if it's really got relation to mythology or it's only an allegory. Perhaps the Lizards from "Prince Rupert Awakes" could actually be dragons. "Formentera Lady" has something to do with The Odissey, so that should count as mythology (I guess "A Sailor's Tale" should be considered a continuation from the same theme)... and from there onwards I understand they mostly dropped those fantasy themes.

ELP... yeah, they got some sci-fi... Tarkus mostly, and Karn Evil... not sure about much more of it though. Yes has just about none of it, (Jon) Anderson's lyrics seem to try to be more spiritual than fantasy. Jethro Tull doesn't have much of it either, (Ian) Anderson's lyrics would be mostly more down to earth matters. Genesis... yeah, they have many fantasy and mythology themes, specially on the Gabriel years (and even if I actually like this themes, Genesis manages to represent them in a way that annoys me mostly).

Perhaps some of this few fantasy themes were given an overblown focus by haters in order to ridicule the genre, and perhaps lyrics from other hard-rock prog related bands, such as Led Zeppelin and Uriah Heep were thrown in the mix too. Well, I guess Rush is indeed to be considered among the prog big ones, and they do have their good share of sci-fi. Or perhaps the fact that prog hardly ever used the usual love and having fun themes annoyed the people who wanted those simple themes that wouldn't make them think much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 11:25
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

At the risk of throwing gas on the fire (Wink) , prog definitions have been partly altered by PA's inclusion of the myriad sub genres. I for one, don't consider artists like Zappa to be prog. Futuristic, beyond the pale, inventive? Absolutely! But Zappa, RIO, and whatever the hell Capt. Beefheart is, is not prog in my book! If others enjoy them, then more power to them. Life is short and musical enjoyment people receive from these artists is fine with me. But when someone mentions the word prog to me, these artists never come immediately to my mind.

I always considered Zappa to be Comedic Prog.......which is not prog. I only like Capt Beefheart for their album covers.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kepler62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 11:54
 I'm going to attempt the impossible here so bear with me :

           Progressive Rock Defn'                                         

        1. Classical music played with rock instrumentation & volume

        2. Rock music with complex harmonies & structure.

        3. Overblown , self-indulgent, pretentious, elitist boring music

      Progressive rock was a form of music originating in the UK that came into vogue starting in the late sixties lasting until roughly the mid-seventies. It featured ambitious instrumentation and extended compositions that often followed the pardigms of classical forms with serious lyrics inspired by science fiction & fantasy themes as well as literary sources. The Beatles, The Moody Blues and The Nice foreshadowed the movement in the late sixties but it wasn't until 1969 with the release of King Crimson's In The Court Of The Crimson King that other rock bands started to surface employing more complex musical structures that drew from classical, jazz and traditional styles. By the late 1970s Progrock had all but run out of steam both creatively and commercially being overrun by disco, punk and harder rocking arena bands.Many  progrock bands were labelled as dinosaur bands in the press and were either forced to update their musical directions or fall victim to the times.

Nonetheless other bands have surfaced over the years,  picking up where the earlier bands left off while some of the older bands soldiered on through adversity but the genre never regained it's glories of the  early seventies



Edited by Kepler62 - February 17 2017 at 11:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingsnake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 12:19
On the matter of fantasy-lyrics, a lot of proggers were fans of Tolkien.
Camel (The White Rider), BJH (Galadriel) and probably even more referred to Tolkien.

Also we have stuff like The Mandalaband, Jon Anderson solo, etc.

But my guess is that the real swords & dragons themed lyrics canbe found in proto-metal, heavy metal and power metal (Uriah Heep, Rainbow, Iron Maiden and so on)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 12:50
Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

 I'm going to attempt the impossible here so bear with me :

           Progressive Rock Defn'                                         

        1. Classical music played with rock instrumentation & volume

        2. Rock music with complex harmonies & structure.

        3. Overblown , self-indulgent, pretentious, elitist boring music

      Progressive rock was a form of music originating in the UK that came into vogue starting in the late sixties lasting until roughly the mid-seventies. It featured ambitious instrumentation and extended compositions that often followed the pardigms of classical forms with serious lyrics inspired by science fiction & fantasy themes as well as literary sources. The Beatles, The Moody Blues and The Nice foreshadowed the movement in the late sixties but it wasn't until 1969 with the release of King Crimson's In The Court Of The Crimson King that other rock bands started to surface employing more complex musical structures that drew from classical, jazz and traditional styles. By the late 1970s Progrock had all but run out of steam both creatively and commercially being overrun by disco, punk and harder rocking arena bands.Many  progrock bands were labelled as dinosaur bands in the press and were either forced to update their musical directions or fall victim to the times.

Nonetheless other bands have surfaced over the years,  picking up where the earlier bands left off while some of the older bands soldiered on through adversity but the genre never regained it's glories of the  early seventies

Makes sense to me. And both dr wu and I would agree on number 3.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 12:52
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I always considered Zappa to be Comedic Prog.......which is not prog. I only like Capt Beefheart for their album covers.
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 14:44
Actually no, the term "prog" was not used in the late sixties. It was not used until the late eighties. I remember I had a mixed tape labelled "Mike's mixed prog tape." That was in the mid 90's. "Prog rock" may  have been used in the seventies but "prog" by itself like I said came later. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=prog
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 14:47
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

 I'm going to attempt the impossible here so bear with me :

           Progressive Rock Defn'                                         

        1. Classical music played with rock instrumentation & volume

        2. Rock music with complex harmonies & structure.

        3. Overblown , self-indulgent, pretentious, elitist boring music

      Progressive rock was a form of music originating in the UK that came into vogue starting in the late sixties lasting until roughly the mid-seventies. It featured ambitious instrumentation and extended compositions that often followed the pardigms of classical forms with serious lyrics inspired by science fiction & fantasy themes as well as literary sources. The Beatles, The Moody Blues and The Nice foreshadowed the movement in the late sixties but it wasn't until 1969 with the release of King Crimson's In The Court Of The Crimson King that other rock bands started to surface employing more complex musical structures that drew from classical, jazz and traditional styles. By the late 1970s Progrock had all but run out of steam both creatively and commercially being overrun by disco, punk and harder rocking arena bands.Many  progrock bands were labelled as dinosaur bands in the press and were either forced to update their musical directions or fall victim to the times.

Nonetheless other bands have surfaced over the years,  picking up where the earlier bands left off while some of the older bands soldiered on through adversity but the genre never regained it's glories of the  early seventies

Makes sense to me. And both dr wu and I would agree on number 3.


I don't think these old definitions which applied to seventies bands still apply anymore. That definition still counts for some stuff especially maybe the symphonic prog stuff but I think there's a lot of bands who are more song oriented these days who don't follow all the old rules. That was the point of this thread. I guess not everyone sees it that way and as Jethro Tull might say some people are still living in the past. Wink

I think these days they are more like guidelines and not hard and fast rules. The other possibility is that a lot of the newer bands are mislabeled as prog when they really aren't. Maybe they have a few prog elements but really aren't prog. Or maybe just one or two songs that would qualify and the rest not so much. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 17 2017 at 14:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zravkapt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 15:06
What is prog?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 15:25
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

 I'm going to attempt the impossible here so bear with me :

           Progressive Rock Defn'                                         

        1. Classical music played with rock instrumentation & volume

        2. Rock music with complex harmonies & structure.

        3. Overblown , self-indulgent, pretentious, elitist boring music

      Progressive rock was a form of music originating in the UK that came into vogue starting in the late sixties lasting until roughly the mid-seventies. It featured ambitious instrumentation and extended compositions that often followed the pardigms of classical forms with serious lyrics inspired by science fiction & fantasy themes as well as literary sources. The Beatles, The Moody Blues and The Nice foreshadowed the movement in the late sixties but it wasn't until 1969 with the release of King Crimson's In The Court Of The Crimson King that other rock bands started to surface employing more complex musical structures that drew from classical, jazz and traditional styles. By the late 1970s Progrock had all but run out of steam both creatively and commercially being overrun by disco, punk and harder rocking arena bands.Many  progrock bands were labelled as dinosaur bands in the press and were either forced to update their musical directions or fall victim to the times.

Nonetheless other bands have surfaced over the years,  picking up where the earlier bands left off while some of the older bands soldiered on through adversity but the genre never regained it's glories of the  early seventies

Makes sense to me. And both dr wu and I would agree on number 3.


I don't think these old definitions which applied to seventies bands still apply anymore. That definition still counts for some stuff especially maybe the symphonic prog stuff but I think there's a lot of bands who are more song oriented these days who don't follow all the old rules. That was the point of this thread. I guess not everyone sees it that way and as Jethro Tull might say some people are still living in the past. Wink

I think these days they are more like guidelines and not hard and fast rules. The other possibility is that a lot of the newer bands are mislabeled as prog when they really aren't. Maybe they have a few prog elements but really aren't prog. Or maybe just one or two songs that would qualify and the rest not so much. 
It's said that fashions go and come around again. So until then, I'll keep my lava lamp plugged in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2017 at 15:36
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'll keep my lava lamp plugged in.

So will I.

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