Has the definition of prog changed at some point? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down

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Posted: February 17 2017 at 17:57

What does having a lava lamp have to do with the way prog sounds?

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Posted: February 17 2017 at 18:17

Why are there so many threads at the same time that are the same topic as this?

Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Posted: February 17 2017 at 19:53

^ Because that's what we love to obsess and talk about. Actually 'What is prog?', 'Who was the first prog artist?', 'Which band was most influential?', etc. etc., are all slightly different discussions.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy

Dean

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 01:24

Atavachron wrote:

SteveG wrote:

I'll keep my lava lamp plugged in.

So will I.

Even if finding the incandescent bulbs needed to power them is proving to be a lot harder than it once was. I suspect that in a few years time they'll be obsolete.

What?

Kepler62

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 03:35

Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Why are there so many threads at the same time that are the same topic as this?

Bexause these forums are like alcoholics anonymous. It's the only place that we can talk about our out of control off the deep end addiction.

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 04:28

Heh...

No two people on here will ever agree on what exactly it is that constitutes prog...so asking if this fatamorgana has changed with time is rather like contemplating whether or not the colour blue was slightly different during the 30s.

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 05:49

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

When I say "at some point" it could be five years ago or it could be twenty or thirty. I wasn't really given enough space in the subject line to be more specific. The important thing is how has the definition of prog changed since the seventies, eighties, nineties or whatever. I know some people are still stuck in the past but over all I think what is considered prog these days is a lot wider than what used to be allowed. For example I often see Radiohead, Muse, Phish, Tool, etc etc considered to be prog(and I have no problem with that)as well as tons more bands who are really very song oriented. I know some people have a very stringent definition of prog but I don't and I'm wondering how strict your definition is and also do you think for the most part the general consensus of what is prog has relaxed a bit or does it still have to have all these hard and fast rules(long songs at least ten minutes, lots of time changes, lots of solos and long instrumental passages, capes, unicorns, dragons, fairy dust etc). Tongue

ask 10 people what prog is.. get 10 answers... where it gets interesting is the old prog v. progressive debate.

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 08:50

micky wrote:

ask 10 people what prog is.. get 10 answers... where it gets interesting is the old prog v. progressive debate.

That is never interesting.

What?

AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 10:50

In some prog circles it's referred to as the little p prog vs big P prog debate.

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 12:16

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

In some prog circles it's referred to as the little p prog vs big P prog debate.

some? Find me one it hasn't been debated into the ground, trust me it has here on this site, for good reason. Forget that curmudgen Dean. Bring the popcorn everytime it comes up. Always fun considering most of the bands listed on this site are no more Prog than my left toe, and most of the bands on this site are no more progressive than my right toe. Two very different camps yet many insist on lumping them together including this site which has led to a site that more than a Prog site.. yet less than progressive rock site.

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 15:52

Mickey's Left Toe. Mickey's Right Toe. I have heard of neither of these bands.

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 18:33

Atavachron wrote:

Capes and dragons are still crucial but yeah I'd say the professional, even the popular, definition of Prog has evolved to mean any rock that is progressive instead of just stuff that reminds us of Yes or Rush.

I was thinking similarly. The music itself has developed to much further and beyond the capes and the definitions, to the point where ... even us here, can not agree on a whole lot and which bands to kiss up to!

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Dellinger

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 20:22

I think that trying to make a difference between prog and progressive as a genre is just wanting to make a discussion out of nowhere. Prog is just the diminutive of progressive... perhaps there could be a point about progressive rock as a genre, and progressive music as an adjective...

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 20:24

^ I think you just made it ~

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Posted: February 18 2017 at 20:52

Everything from ambient through technical metal to nu jazz, all welcome

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Posted: February 19 2017 at 07:16

I believe it was science fiction writer/editor Damon Knight ("To Serve Man") who said: "Science Fiction is whatever I'm pointing at when I say 'Science Fiction'." SF writer Samuel R. Delany often makes the argument that science fiction is a way of reading, rather than any specific elements of the text.

No, I haven't gone way off topic. I think the same thing applies to music. You can listen to a wide variety of music with "progressive" ears. It's an approach to listening that's less superficial, more in depth. Because we're listening less superficially, material that has greater complexity/sophistication can be more satisfying. At least it is to me. I liken it to playing tennis. The more you practice, the better you get. The better you get, the more you enjoy it. (Trust me on this. I suck at tennis, and I really don't enjoy it.)

I enjoy lots of different music with my "prog ears". Jazz, albeit primarily post-bop. Classical, albeit mostly 20th Century. San Francisco psychedelic. "After Bathing at Baxters" by Jefferson Airplane is clearly a progressive album, although the band's earlier hit singles aren't. Grateful Dead did some very progressive pieces, like The Eleven and Terrapin Station. In fact, I specifically credit the Dead (who were a lot closer to prog when I used to see them in the '60s than they were later) with getting me started on the road that led to Henry Cow.

That's the reason I like the fact that this site discusses so many different types of prog.

Edited by socrates17 - February 19 2017 at 07:17

Lewian

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Posted: February 19 2017 at 08:55

moshkito wrote:

Was this ever different? I don't think there was ever a point at which at least everyone who really cared would've agreed. Music doesn't naturally fit into categories. OK, there are probably some examples to be found in the history of music that certain definitions were canonised enough and supported and protected by certain authorities that disagreement about them was hard to find, but a core aspect of creativity was always not to respect borders and to extend them.

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Posted: February 19 2017 at 17:30

Atavachron wrote:

^ I think you just made it ~

he must have remembered all my years of posts hammering just that point home.

Hell... lets do it again!!!

'What I think, is that the prog umbrella for too long has tried to shelter two very different things under its shade: On the one hand, the nostalgia scene, which features both the old acts that are still around, like Yes and whatever Italian band you care to mention, and "old-new" bands like Flower Kings and Transatlantic - bands that, though newish, cater mostly to very conservative audiences. On the other hand, the new progressive scene, which could include anything from The Mars Volta to Gösta Berlings Saga, and which really isn't a scene at all, especially considering that many of the bands themselves have no awareness of being part of a "prog scene". These two strands really are extremely different. There's plenty of people with a love for both (including, to a certain extent, myself). But to throw the typical fans of both scenes (the former, ageing, follicle-challenged geezers - bless'em all!, the latter young, dynamic listeners brought up to endless eclecticism and irreverence to genres - bless them too!), might just be too much of a stretch. Maybe it's time for a divorce. Let the geezers have their nostalgia-fests, and let the "new prog" bands get out on the regular rock circuit and compete with any other rock genres out there rather than put them in the geriatric ward of "prog" where the smell of old age will make them unpalatable to both the rock media and the major labels. No disrespect to either!!! :-)

And as an a propos: Prog labels that sign new, fresh and exciting bands should be careful how they market and present the bands. Selling them in the traditional way ("washes of mellotrons, recall Eloy in their heyday, rave reception at Bolivia Art Rock Fest (BARF)") will, quite simply, sell them short. It's a new world out there.

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Posted: February 20 2017 at 01:54

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Everything from ambient through technical metal to nu jazz, all welcome

But how about Kansas??

Kingsnake

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Posted: February 20 2017 at 01:56

Good arguments here. Interesting read.

My cup of tea:

I think a lot of people here listen to socalled sophisticated music. Disco, grunge, punk, hiphop, new age and hitparade pop are the big enemies.

I must say that I listen to punk, grunge, pop, disco, hiphop etc., but only if it's sophisticated.

That's why I listen to only 10% of the bands listed on this website. And sometimes I wish some of my favorite bands are listed here, because they are so good, but they just don't fall in any of the progrock categories (Tears for Fears, Rupert Hine, Incubus, Propaganda, 4Hero, The Roots, Guru's Jazzamatazz, etc. etc.)

When I think of progrock (as listed on the website) I think of sophisticated (complicated) classic rock, and bands that copy that sound.