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The T 
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 Topic: Has Christianity helped or harmed humanity?
Posted: February 22 2017 at 13:27 |
I’m talking about Christianity in all its forms. What has
been its real contribution to mankind? I single it out from other religions as
it’s the largest one. Would the world had been better off without the advent of
this religious belief? When one considers all the bloodletting, massacres,
injustices that have been committed in its name, when one considers how
scourges like anti-Semitism have had support and even ideological foundation in
Christianity, one asks if its presence has been ultimately nefarious for
humanity. Not to mention all the most recent and maybe “less violent” stories of
today’s Christianity such as child abuse, homophobia, anti-science beliefs, etc.
Yes, there have been great people who have done a lot of
good and have been Christians and even members of one of its churches
themselves. Would they have done the same good acts without their beliefs? The
relief many missionaries have brought to poor areas of the world, would it have
happened anyway? Doesn’t it constitute ideological colonialism?
Even in less important things like the arts. My 3 favorite
pieces of music are actually sacred works (one each by the first three
characters in my signature). But, wouldn’t they have been created regardless of
belief? Opinions?
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SteveG
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Posted: February 22 2017 at 13:32 |
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Both.
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Dean
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Posted: February 22 2017 at 14:46 |
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I would have liked to see how the world would have turned out without any religion to be brutally honest.
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What?
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Atavachron
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Posted: February 22 2017 at 16:51 |
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I believe in most institutions per se-- that is, something a community can lean on for support and aid when needed. We all need a little help, or just sympathy, now & then. But clearly Christianity overstepped its mandate when it began condemning, inquisiting, punishing, torturing, slaughtering and molesting. Jesus would truly be weeping uncontrollably if he were to see what has been done in his name. Poor guy.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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siLLy puPPy
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PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
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Posted: February 22 2017 at 16:57 |
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I'd say both. I used to be vehementally against religion but once i toured places like Belarus and other places that only had religion to keep them going through horrible times i changed my mind. Religions can be used for both good and evil as everything can is nothing more than a corporation of ideas and fairytales. It doesn't matter if we like it or not, it seems to be an inherent part of human consciousness evolution. In progressive minds it may seem utterly outdated and downright evil but from the point of view of the uneducated and utterly despaired, it is the only thing that makes life tolerable. Of course we're all aware here of the abuses of religion and especially Christianity which has little in common than what JC supposedly preached. At least the new pope is somewhat liberal
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 https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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HackettFan
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Posted: February 22 2017 at 21:03 |
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Both. I'm an atheist, but I never saw any point in keeping score between good deeds and atrocities. There has been some lasting benefit to the Christian shifting of focus to the downtrodden. I never considered the Bible to be the final word on morality (terrible guidance on slavery, for instance). I'd like to see it and other religions fade away now, in any respect.
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Kepler62
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Posted: February 22 2017 at 21:07 |
 Dean wrote:
I would have liked to see how the world would have turned out without any religion to be brutally honest. |
Beat me to it.
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Tapfret
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Posted: February 22 2017 at 21:37 |
My parents are hardcore atheists. My extended family is very religious, on the mild side of Baptists. I am agnostic. I find both of them to e religions. Ultimately atheism, while having a stronger position based on physical evidence, is still just a belief system. That is an argument for a different thread. I am only stating this to frame my answer.
The 'end justifying the means' ethical debate is what the real question is here. Christianity has dominated the Western world for 2 millenia and we have arrived at historically the cushiest point for the majority of the world. Have they done it without atrocities and with a strict adherence to the doctrine of God loves all his children and following the 10 commandments. HELL. NO. Long debates, dissertations, and lifetimes of ethicist's work has gone into this question. What we have in Western society is analogous to the pyramids of Giza. Few lack awe when looking upon them, but it is likely thousands upon thousands lost their lives and suffered to build them. The fact is, I don't feel that I am qualified to answer the question. But as near as I can tell, the madness of atrocity really comes down to individuals acting independent of the religious doctrine they are supposed to be following. The success/failure is with humanity, not any religion.
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Dean
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 00:09 |
The T wrote:
I’m talking about Christianity in all its forms.
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The further I get from "christianity" the more I come to view the three Abrahamic religions (judaism, islam and christianity) as all being variants of the same thing. The world would be a far better place if all the followers of those three ritualised worship systems adopted a similar view.
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What?
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Dean
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 00:27 |
Tapfret wrote:
Ultimately atheism, while having a stronger position based on physical evidence, is still just a belief system. That is an argument for a different thread. I am only stating this to frame my answer. |
Tough titty, you raised it here, it gets addressed here: No it isn't. Atheism is an absence of belief, there is nothing to believe so cannot be a belief and since there is nothing procedural and systematic about it certainly is not a system.
Imagine a world where the concept and practice of religion never existed - where all the existential questions that mankind asked (like why are we here?, who made the world? and what happens when we die?) were answered plainly and factually without recourse to supernatural beings and magic, and everyone was content with that. We, looking from our theistic world, would regard those people living on that world as atheists yet they would not, to them the concept of theism and atheism would be almost incomprehensible (well, they'd understand the concept because they are evidently smart cookies, but I suspect they'd be bemused and bewildered that whole population of planet would first adopt such a concept and then end up indiscriminately killing each other over different versions of it).
Atheism only exists as a concept because the concept of religion exists. What the people who argue that atheism is a belief system are alluding to is that because one person believes that a god exists then the rest of us has to believe that that god does not exist by default. That's not a system, and it doesn't actually qualify as a belief either. If we are going to piss about with the word belief then what the rest of us are really saying is not that we believe that this god does not exist, we don't believe that person when they say that 'their' god does exist. This is precisely what we do in every other situation when someone makes an outlandish claim - in the absence of evidence we disbelieve the testimony.
Edited by Dean - February 23 2017 at 03:08
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What?
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Tapfret
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 03:42 |
What's on the other side of an event horizon Dean? That place where all of our physical laws break down and are essentially meaningless. All the evidence we have of anything in our physical world means mouse piss in the grand context of the universe. And if there is a higher power of sentience outside our physical understanding, it will be exactly that, outside of our understanding. And it will be extremely disappointing to virtually all religious groups. Except maybe Buddhists.
There are so many principles of space/time that people a lot smarter than me don't even understand. That whole existing outside of space/time and looking down at our physical world as a 2d circle principle... 
What I do know is I can't do my job as a registered nurse and dig my heels in the dirt about any belief I may have. Mostly I just keep my mouth shut about it. And if a patient asks me to pray with them I do. Not because I believe it will help them. Its because I know they believe it will help them. I don't go around thinking that I am being held hostage by their belief system. It just keeps the peace. And that, I believe is therapeutic.
And atheism is not the absence of belief, that's nihilism.
I do believe its past my bedtime. If the tooth fairy comes its getting a dutch oven.
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SteveG
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 04:17 |
Dean wrote:
No it isn't. Atheism is an absence of belief, there is nothing to believe so cannot be a belief and since there is nothing procedural and systematic about it certainly is not a system.
Imagine a world where the concept and practice of religion never existed - where all the existential questions that mankind asked (like why are we here?, who made the world? and what happens when we die?) were answered plainly and factually without recourse to supernatural beings and magic, and everyone was content with that. We, looking from our theistic world, would regard those people living on that world as atheists yet they would not, to them the concept of theism and atheism would be almost incomprehensible (well, they'd understand the concept because they are evidently smart cookies, but I suspect they'd be bemused and bewildered that whole population of planet would first adopt such a concept and then end up indiscriminately killing each other over different versions of it).
Atheism only exists as a concept because the concept of religion exists. What the people who argue that atheism is a belief system are alluding to is that because one person believes that a god exists then the rest of us has to believe that that god does not exist by default. That's not a system, and it doesn't actually qualify as a belief either. If we are going to piss about with the word belief then what the rest of us are really saying is not that we believe that this god does not exist, we don't believe that person when they say that 'their' god does exist. This is precisely what we do in every other situation when someone makes an outlandish claim - in the absence of evidence we disbelieve the testimony. |
Atheism seems to be the only "absence of belief system" that provokes the same level of passion as an actual belief system. One group exalts their belief in God, while the other cries from the rooftops that they do not. Very strange, and not worth my time.
Edited by SteveG - February 24 2017 at 03:54
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Dean
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 04:18 |
Tapfret wrote:
What's on the other side of an event horizon Dean? That place where all of our physical laws break down and are essentially meaningless. All the evidence we have of anything in our physical world means mouse piss in the grand context of the universe. And if there is a higher power of sentience outside our physical understanding, it will be exactly that, outside of our understanding. And it will be extremely disappointing to virtually all religious groups. Except maybe Buddhists. |
When all we can say is "we don't know (and in all probability never will)" then all possible ideas as what it may (or may not) be are equally valid and/or invalid.
Tapfret wrote:
There are so many principles of space/time that people a lot smarter than me don't even understand. That whole existing outside of space/time and looking down at our physical world as a 2d circle principle... |
Ah, except in that analogy a 3D (or 4D or 10D) entity can in principle interact with the 2D world and as such those manifestations would be observable to inhabitants of that world. They would not be able to explain those manifestations using 2D physics but being smart cookies they could collate observational evidence and postulate extra-dimensional explanations. In our 3D world we are not observing any such interactions from extra-dimensional entities so are postulating explanations from imagination alone. The 10D universe of superstring theory addresses a problem of quantum physics, not theology or philosophy.
Tapfret wrote:
What I do know is I can't do my job as a registered nurse and dig my heels in the dirt about any belief I may have. Mostly I just keep my mouth shut about it. And if a patient asks me to pray with them I do. Not because I believe it will help them. Its because I know they believe it will help them. I don't go around thinking that I am being held hostage by their belief system. It just keeps the peace. And that, I believe is therapeutic. |
And that's what we do because we're not complete arseholes. Regardless of my feelings on the subject I placed a coin under my daughters pillow every time she lost a tooth, and for sentimental reasons I've kept a copy of the note she wrote to the tooth fairy when she misplaced one of those teeth.
Tapfret wrote:
And atheism is not the absence of belief, that's nihilism. |
Nope, nihilism is the rejection of more than just religion. Atheism is the absence of belief in gods and the rejection of theocracy, it says nothing about existence or life outside of religious doctrine.
Edited by Dean - February 23 2017 at 04:19
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What?
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CPicard
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 09:15 |
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I would be tempted to say that Christianity may have harmed more than helped.
I'm not discussing the charity, the idea of mutual goodness and other benevolent institutions, but, rather, the fact that the universalism of Christianity (but that's the same problem with Islam and, maybe, Buddhism) is at the core of a general attitude towards the belief in one or many gods: how can one dismiss the idea of the existence of God if this last one is said to be omnipotent, omniscient and present everywhere, in everything?
I wonder if the persistence of polytheistic cults wouldn't have led mankind to wonder if said cults were really... smart, if I can say: at some point, wouldn't have some people started to ask if their local god was real and if it was really wise to worship a deity which may happen to share some powers with another god - yet, a god worshipped on another continent?
How can you accept the idea that the Sungod or Moongod of your country would be a rabbit or a horse when everyone tells you it's a man or a woman?
That's just a supposition, but maybe Christianity and monotheism has prevented mankind from realising that most of our religious beliefs are nothing but superstition.
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Xurtio
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 10:26 |
I think Christianity has harmed more than helped on a global scale. In smaller institutions like family and local communities, it's more circumstantial.
In general, religion is first an explanation or and answer for existential questions that really bother people. It then becomes a tool as it develops in a society, and it is a tool that allows for mass control - as it places itself at the very center of existence and many millions of people automatically indoctrinate their children with it. But often, the cultures sociopolitical flaws are already encoded in the language. For instance, Islam was used to unite and focus Bedouin tribes, who were vicious raiders at the time - as the religion developed among the Bedouin tribes, many of the cultural practices (themselves based on war) were encoded in the Quran. Similar connections can be found in the Holy Bible. Even the Sikh still carry symbols of the warrior culture encoded in their current imagining of Sikhism. At the time when cultures were more isolated, conflicts between cultures could easily gain popular support when religious ideals become the motivation (from the idea of defending your "true" interpretation of existence and purpose, to punishing "sinners", to rewards in the afterlife).
Once somebody has a fully developed brain, and much of it is has developed around this one world model, it would be very traumatic to have to upset that world model and change it because it would weaken the foundation of many other internal behavior models. So people become dependent on their world models - and this is true not just of religion, but of any world model that people use to motivate (or justify) their behavior and methods in life.
Religion, as a tool, it neither bad nor good for people, it depends on how it's used, and smaller communities tend to make good and positive use of it and so do families. But once a religious community becomes large, international, and missionary, it becomes filled with dark corners where people with agendas can do their bidding.
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Hymnomancer
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Blacksword
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 10:36 |
SteveG wrote:
Both. |
This.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Tapfret
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 11:28 |
SteveG wrote:
....Very strange, and not worth my time.
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That is absolutely the bottom line. We can't control other people or their opinion, just our reactions and the energy we devote to them. And I'm fairly certain it's that kind of energy that promotes malignant neoplasms.
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The T
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 13:04 |
Dean wrote:
I would have liked to see how the world would have turned out without any religion to be brutally honest. |
They all stem from the same seed, they are all equally full of improbable stories, they all filled with atrocious acts on their names (I'm not 100% sure about Judaism but mostly because since the early days of the century it has been a minority religion).
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The T
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 13:06 |
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I’m talking about Christianity in all its forms.
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The further I get from "christianity" the more I come to view the three Abrahamic religions (judaism, islam and christianity) as all being variants of the same thing. The world would be a far better place if all the followers of those three ritualised worship systems adopted a similar view. |
Actually this is the post I wanted to comment on my previous post 
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The T
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Posted: February 23 2017 at 13:09 |
To use a terrible analogy, the absence of color is not a different color, is just no color.
Empty space is not alternative space. It's just empty space. The void (unless you start talking about dark matter and more but please don't...)
The natural state of man is probably zero belief. Beliefs are created. Atheism is not a belief but a void of one (though I'll concede there are atheists who are as annoyingly preachy as religious believers).
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Has Christianity helped or harmed humanity?
