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What was the genesis of Prog-Metal?

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verslibre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2017 at 18:16
In this thread, I've read early Crimson, early Budgie and even Iron Butterfly tagged as prog-metal.
 
Er, no.
 
Side A of 2112 is more like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2017 at 18:19
But Rush are not metal and 2112 is not prog-metal.   That's why I wish the o.p. would clarify his interest--  that is if he ever reads his thread again and replies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2017 at 19:01
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

But Rush are not metal and 2112 is not prog-metal.
 
And that's perfectly okay. The topic is the genesis of prog-metal. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kepler62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2017 at 19:27
Everyone just seems to want to get the last word in. This hardly a discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 00:05
^ Deal with it

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

But Rush are not metal and 2112 is not prog-metal.
And that's perfectly okay. The topic is the genesis of prog-metal. Smile

Okay but prog-metal could not have come from and was not primarily shaped by progressive rock bands like Rush, IMO--  the two styles occupy different lines of development, come from separate gene pools ;

prog metal (Voivod, Watchtower) from metal (Sabbath, Priest)  ::  prog rock (Genesis, Yes) from rock (Beatles, Beach Boys) .  

King Crimson, for example, had a very wide influence on all number of rock bands heavy and otherwise, but they did not have a bigger impact on progmetal than did Maiden or Yngwie's Rising Force.   Crimson inspired everyone, still continue to, have no category, and therefore cannot have been responsible for what became Progmetal as we currently know it.  

Heavy metal was destined to progress by its very nature, all on its own, by the obsessive musicianship of its players, and owes very little to anyone but its own direct ancestors.




Edited by Atavachron - March 21 2017 at 00:18
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flight123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 03:59
Much overlooked is 'Free Form Guitar' from the first Chicago album, Chicago Transit Authority.  Recorded in 69, Terry Kath almost predicts the future...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 04:11
Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

Everyone just seems to want to get the last word in. This hardly a discussion.
No, everyone is offering their opinion on a prog metal originator. What should be gleaned from a thread like this is the lack of a consensus, and the futility of such a thread, as fun as it may be. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 04:15
To recap, some of the usual and not so usual suspects: Camber Bros., Hendrix, Iron Butterfly, Budgie, Deep Purple, KC, Sabbath, Captain Beyond, Uriah Heap, Rush, and, hopefully someone mentioned, Led Zeppelin. A pretty good starting point for the "genesis of prog metal" or Proto Prog Metal. I'll even throw in Vanilla Fudge and early BOC.

Edited by SteveG - March 21 2017 at 04:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kepler62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 05:49
Nobody is mentioning lyrics. Black Sabbath's lyrics were pretty "progressive". They did away with all the flower power hippie sh*t and made their music a heavier and more unhappy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 06:18
Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

Nobody is mentioning lyrics. Black Sabbath's lyrics were pretty "progressive". They did away with all the flower power hippie sh*t and made their music a heavier and more unhappy.
When it comes to prog, the less said about lyrics, in most cases, the better. But I agree. Sabbath were the anti flower power contingent, even if that was the trend in the early seventies.
"I'm spacing out. I see silences between the leaves."- lyric from the song Chimacum Rain by Linda Parhecs, who at seventy still claims to never have taken a single drug in her life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 17:27
I think the main era that influenced prog metal was the very early 80's NWOBHM, specifically Iron Maiden along with bands like AIIZ (A to Z), Wychfynder, Limelight, Paying Mantis, Magnum even Tygers of Pan Tang; these guys had listened to Tull, Crimson and Rush as well as Judas priest and Sabbath. Like Neo-prog, much of it started off looking backwards but unlike Neo-prog, it developed into lots of different sub-genres and moved forward.

I just want to add a comment about Black Sabbath. Yes, around the time of the first lp it was their 'shtick' that they were 'anti-hippie horror film music' and yes they came from a working class, industrial background but if you examine their lyrics from the Paranoid lp onwards and you see that Ozzy and Tony Iommi frequently wrote about the absurdity of war and mans inhumanity to man, destruction of the environment and the overall hypocracy of politicians and the established church; i guess they saw the same hypocracy and falseness in much of the so called 'Hippy' movement (as did Zappa and many others) and they also wrote about loneliness, isolation and depression but they were not unique in that at that time.. Ozzy is a huge Beatles and John Lennon fan! But to say they did away with all the flower power hippy sh*t is as simplistic as saying punk did away with prog.

Just something to add to the 'discussion' WinkSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 17:41
^ yeah Sabbath were hippies, just ahead of the curve with the cocaine and Devil worship and all ~

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 18:47
Jethro Tull, 1989.  Clearly.  They have the metal (trophy) to prove it: 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 19:27
^ No but I've always thought WarChild was a partial early attempt at "progressive metal".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kepler62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2017 at 19:44
Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

I think the main era that influenced prog metal was the very early 80's NWOBHM, specifically Iron Maiden along with bands like AIIZ (A to Z), Wychfynder, Limelight, Paying Mantis, Magnum even Tygers of Pan Tang; these guys had listened to Tull, Crimson and Rush as well as Judas priest and Sabbath. Like Neo-prog, much of it started off looking backwards but unlike Neo-prog, it developed into lots of different sub-genres and moved forward.

I just want to add a comment about Black Sabbath. Yes, around the time of the first lp it was their 'shtick' that they were 'anti-hippie horror film music' and yes they came from a working class, industrial background but if you examine their lyrics from the Paranoid lp onwards and you see that Ozzy and Tony Iommi frequently wrote about the absurdity of war and mans inhumanity to man, destruction of the environment and the overall hypocracy of politicians and the established church; i guess they saw the same hypocracy and falseness in much of the so called 'Hippy' movement (as did Zappa and many others) and they also wrote about loneliness, isolation and depression but they were not unique in that at that time.. Ozzy is a huge Beatles and John Lennon fan! But to say they did away with all the flower power hippy sh*t is as simplistic as saying punk did away with prog.

Just something to add to the 'discussion' WinkSmile

It was Geezer who wrote most of the lyrics. I don't think Sabbath were really consciously really trying undermine the flower power people. I think it was because Geezer was reading all this weird sh*t and some of that mindset got incorporated into their lyrics. Come to think of it Sabbath Bloody Sabbath was sort of proggy.  They weren't singing about elves or sky wizards but musically it was progish. They even had Rick Wakeman on keyboards on Sabra Cadabra. I think he played that moog riff on Who Are You. Might be wrong about that though.


Edited by Kepler62 - March 21 2017 at 19:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2017 at 04:15
Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Ozzy is a huge Beatles and John Lennon fan! But to say they did away with all the flower power hippy sh*t is as simplistic as saying punk did away with prog.

Just something to add to the 'discussion' WinkSmile
No one is over simplifying anything, or suggesting that Sabbath single handily did away with Flower Power. The so called 1967 "Summer of Love" philosophy was quite over by 1969 and FP was on the wane before the boys from industrial Birmingham (as far removed a place as you get from 1960's Flower Power) started their lyrical shtick in song. A song like War Pigs could be construed as post Flower Power hippie sh*t, as you called it, or it still can be relevant today. Unfortunately, war, unlike Flower Power, never goes out of style.

Edited by SteveG - March 22 2017 at 07:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2017 at 15:16
The commercial pop 'flowers and beads' element was certainly fashion and was, yes, outdated as soon as the record company executives got their hands on it. The political side of the 'Underground' took longer to die out.. and the experimental/ art side continued and was one of the birth parents of progressive rock. So yes most of it was gone before Black Sabbath appeared. But Birmingham had 'Mothers' club which was possibly the most progressive/ underground of the music clubs outside of London despite being 'industrial'. I didnt call it 'Hippie sh*t, i was quoting a previous posting.. sorry if my irony doesnt come over as clearly as your own or other postersErmm and i'm quite a fan of Sabbath and i see their lyrical content as generally positive and yes i feel that lyrics like Warpigs are still very relevant today. Sabbath werent the only band to succumb to cocaine and freaking themselves out with occult imagery..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2017 at 15:30
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

To recap, some of the usual and not so usual suspects: Camber Bros., Hendrix, Iron Butterfly, Budgie, Deep Purple, KC, Sabbath, Captain Beyond, Uriah Heap, Rush, and, hopefully someone mentioned, Led Zeppelin. A pretty good starting point for the "genesis of prog metal" or Proto Prog Metal. I'll even throw in Vanilla Fudge and early BOC.

Pretty much.........include Cream, Yardbirds and The Who.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2017 at 15:33
Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

I think the main era that influenced prog metal was the very early 80's NWOBHM, specifically Iron Maiden along with bands like AIIZ (A to Z), Wychfynder, Limelight, Paying Mantis, Magnum even Tygers of Pan Tang; these guys had listened to Tull, Crimson and Rush as well as Judas priest and Sabbath. Like Neo-prog, much of it started off looking backwards but unlike Neo-prog, it developed into lots of different sub-genres and moved forward.

I just want to add a comment about Black Sabbath. Yes, around the time of the first lp it was their 'shtick' that they were 'anti-hippie horror film music' and yes they came from a working class, industrial background but if you examine their lyrics from the Paranoid lp onwards and you see that Ozzy and Tony Iommi frequently wrote about the absurdity of war and mans inhumanity to man, destruction of the environment and the overall hypocracy of politicians and the established church; i guess they saw the same hypocracy and falseness in much of the so called 'Hippy' movement (as did Zappa and many others) and they also wrote about loneliness, isolation and depression but they were not unique in that at that time.. Ozzy is a huge Beatles and John Lennon fan! But to say they did away with all the flower power hippy sh*t is as simplistic as saying punk did away with prog.

Just something to add to the 'discussion' WinkSmile

It was Geezer who wrote most of the lyrics. I don't think Sabbath were really consciously really trying undermine the flower power people. I think it was because Geezer was reading all this weird sh*t and some of that mindset got incorporated into their lyrics. Come to think of it Sabbath Bloody Sabbath was sort of proggy.  They weren't singing about elves or sky wizards but musically it was progish. They even had Rick Wakeman on keyboards on Sabra Cadabra. I think he played that moog riff on Who Are You. Might be wrong about that though.


I know that 'After forever' on Masters of Reality was written by Tony Iommi and deals with the hypocracy of christianity- and you're right, Geezer Butler did write a lot of the early lyrics but i think they got a bit freaked out by some of the occult imagery they used and by some of the weird hanger's on they accumulated.

Here's a quote i found somewhere- ''Their music is rather aggressive, but their worldview is not. Ozzy explained: "Sabbath were a hippie band. We were into peace."

Yes, youre right about Rick Wakeman playing on the 'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath' lp (and yes i also think the lp is their most prog) as he was bored with Yes recording 'Tales from Topographic Oceans' and could go and have drink with the Sabs and help out on keyboards..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2017 at 15:35
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ yeah Sabbath were hippies, just ahead of the curve with the cocaine and Devil worship and all ~


Ozzy once said: "The only black magic Sabbath ever got into was a box of chocolates."LOL
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