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What was the genesis of Prog-Metal?

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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 11:42
Originally posted by PhideauxFan PhideauxFan wrote:

From the 70's with Uriah Heep, Rush and Kansas ...

To the 80's with Queensryche, Heir Apparent and Fates Warning ...

To end, in the 90's to nowadays with Dream Theater, Pain Of Salvation and Leprous ...

I would disagree with Kansas being on there. They were hard rock and hard prog or heavy prog but I would not say they were ever metal or proto metal or even ever metallish at all really. I would say even Jethro Tull were heavier and closer to proto metal or prog metal. For some examples listen to "locomotive breath" or especially "minstrel in the gallery"(full version of the song) and you'll see what I mean. 



Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - March 19 2017 at 11:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 11:55
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

^ .........and BUDGIE !! Let's not forget Budgie.

Uh,  more like let's not forget Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and Rush. King Crimson too. Yeah Budgie also. 

Modern prog metal started in the mid eighties with Fates Warning, Queensryche and Watchtower(especially these guys although hey are more obscure). However, as was said the seeds for prog metal go way back. I think you can trace it back toa  band called High Tide who were early prog and early metal at the same time. Then LZ, DP, Black Sabbath, Atomic Rooster, Lucifer's Friend and all the other usual suspects. Some bands were heavy on the metal and not so heavy on the prog but as far as prog metal goes I think Uriah Heep and Rush were prototypes of the genre with some stuff by Black Sabbath and King Crimson being important as well.
I totally agree with you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 12:26
It's like discussing the origins of prog rock itself. Some say Sgt Pepper, some say Piper, some say The Mothers Freak out... some say ITCOTCK..

For metal IMO it's either Sabbath or Iron Butterfly IMO, although I would say the likes of Budgie and Rush were probably more of a progressive influence on the likes of Maiden, Metallica and actual pure prog metal bands like Dream Theater.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 12:29
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

^Going to have t disagree with you on this one. Any criteria that makes In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida a prog-metal progenitor also existed in Time Has Come Today by The Chambers Bros (album version)the year earlier. 
A valid point, but I find that THCT by the Chambers to be more psychedelic than metal, but
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 13:23
21st Century Schizoid Man was the first progressive metal song.  :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 14:53
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man was the first progressive metal song.  :)



Mmm. Certainly, Red was a massive influence on metal types. There is no doubting Crimson's impact at all.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 15:31
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man was the first progressive metal song.  :)



Mmm. Certainly, Red was a massive influence on metal types. There is no doubting Crimson's impact at all.
I would certainly say that 21st CSM was full blown prog metal. Proto prog metal? Me thinks not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 16:23
Some of the late 60's/ early 70's Blues rock power trio's  such as The Groundhogs ('Thank Christ for the Bomb' is just such a fantastic lp), May Blitz, Clear Blue Sky, T2, Budgie etc along with Sabbath, High Tide, Hawkwind and Mark 2 Deep purple certainly set the motors running towards 'progressive heavy/hard rock'. Crimson and Rush have certainly had an impact.. but to be honest Modern prog metal remains a complete mystery to me.. about 20 years ago i saw a band called Mentaur and they were the first actual 'prog metal' band i think i ever saw.. Iron Maiden car crashed into VDGGWacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 17:16
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Mmm. Certainly, Red was a massive influence on metal types. There is no doubting Crimson's impact at all.

Good point.  

But Eloy?  Kansas?  Rush?   I really think not.   "The genesis of prog-metal" is the OP's question, and there's about as much metal in those acts, if you'll forgive the morbid comparison, as there was found in President Kennedy's corpse: not much.   Hard rock is not metal, and progressive hard rock (Heavy Prog) is not related to Progmetal, never was--  the two styles have almost nothing to do with each other.   As per Tapfret's quite correct Chamber Bros. example, one might as well include Hendrix and Cream in the metal/pre-metal category by that thinking.  

Further, I would place Progmetal's gene pool in metal, not prog;  it was a product of British heavy metal, not hard rock or prog rock.  




Edited by Atavachron - March 19 2017 at 17:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 17:32
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man was the first progressive metal song.  :)


And the Beatles "I want to hold your hand" was the first hip-hop song LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 18:27
^I though you said that was the most complex song ever. Make up your mind! Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 18:42
I like the idea that bands who released album that had a kind of progressing nature to the evolution to their sound, their albums, their mystique, and who for whatever reason kind of lived outside the world of AM radio play paved the subterranean pathways for the metal scene. Sabbath, Maiden, Queensryche, Voivod, Death all seemed to almost intentionally create that separation. "Metal music" was always to me the music that you would NEVER hear on AM radio, that developed fan allegiances to whole albums, and that proudly adhered to the persona of long-haired, drug-oriented, party-all-the-time life styles.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 19:51
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

^I though you said that was the most complex song ever. Make up your mind! Tongue


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 20:32
This song has to be the candidate for first prog metal song, Opeth and BTBAM are all over this! 





This one was just before the first hip hop/prog song from the Beatles "I want to hold your ham"


Edited by Thatfabulousalien - March 19 2017 at 20:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 20:33
I'm just waiting for Steven Wilson's remaster of Rocket 88 Party
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 20:50
I made a list a while back listing the albums that were fundamental in the evolution of prog metal. It's floating on one of the threads here on PA but here it is on Rate Your Music with videos and much nicer presentation ;)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aglasshouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 20:52
Didn't a lot of early prog bands utilize excess heaviness? Prog has been using hard rock for awhile, it only branched off and got a little heavier. When that time was I'm not sure, but I'm guessing bands like Atomic Rooster, Captain Beyond, Blue Oyster Cult, Sabbath, and others were the ones that started it all, no?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 21:11
Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

Didn't a lot of early prog bands utilize excess heaviness? Prog has been using hard rock for awhile, it only branched off and got a little heavier. When that time was I'm not sure, but I'm guessing bands like Atomic Rooster, Captain Beyond, Blue Oyster Cult, Sabbath, and others were the ones that started it all, no?

In my opinion no. The true prog metal scene didn't start until the eighties. Those bands as well as a few others that have already been mentioned sewed the seeds if you will but it would be several years for prog metal to really coalesce as the genre we know today.

One or two people on here seemed to have downplayed Rush's influence which is really a shame because their influence can not be stated enough. I think Rush have had by far the single most important influence on prog metal than any other band. If it wasn't for Rush no Dream Theater and probably no Queensryche either. Whether albums such as 2112 or Hemispheres are true prog metal is debatable. Their influence however is not. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - March 19 2017 at 21:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 21:14
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

Didn't a lot of early prog bands utilize excess heaviness? Prog has been using hard rock for awhile, it only branched off and got a little heavier. When that time was I'm not sure, but I'm guessing bands like Atomic Rooster, Captain Beyond, Blue Oyster Cult, Sabbath, and others were the ones that started it all, no?

In my opinion no. The true prog metal scene didn't start until the eighties. Those bands as well as a few others that have already been mentioned sewed the seeds if you will but it would be several years for prog metal to really coalesce as the genre we know today.

One or two people on here seemed to have downplayed Rush's influence which is really a shame because their influence can not be stated enough. I think Rush have had by far the single most important influence on prog metal than any other band. If it wasn't for Rush no Dream Theater and probably no Queensryche either. Whether albums such as 2112 or Hemispheres are true prog metal is debatable. Their influence however is not. 

IMHO the first TRUE prog metal band was Watchtower followed by Fates Warning, Queensryche, Aslan (later Psychotic Waltz) and perhaps Crimson Glory. Then the floodgates opened in the 90s

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2017 at 22:36
^I agree. You hit most of the big ones right there. Savatage, Dream Theater, Helloween(if they count) and Sieges Even were slightly later.
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