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Topic ClosedGrateful Dead

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Poll Question: Vote if you like or don't like "Grateful Dead."
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
23 [67.65%]
11 [32.35%]
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mlkpad14 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2017 at 18:30
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

yeah man.... too beautiful a day to waste your time man or to even care.. unless you can make them a bunch of limey's it won't make a damn bit of difference what kind of reason and logic you can manage. It isn't about the music.. it never was when you had a bunch of hacks in charge of additions...it is about perception and protecting the sanctity of the site and ... oh... where they came from haha

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

however IMO very underrated by many in their importance and influence.. none more than by this site.  The single biggest omission the site has.. if they had been english.. they'd have been added... in 2004
Bullsh*t.
No, I agree completely.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2017 at 18:33
Originally posted by mlkpad14 mlkpad14 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

yeah man.... too beautiful a day to waste your time man or to even care.. unless you can make them a bunch of limey's it won't make a damn bit of difference what kind of reason and logic you can manage. It isn't about the music.. it never was when you had a bunch of hacks in charge of additions...it is about perception and protecting the sanctity of the site and ... oh... where they came from haha

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

however IMO very underrated by many in their importance and influence.. none more than by this site.  The single biggest omission the site has.. if they had been english.. they'd have been added... in 2004
Bullsh*t.
No, I agree completely.
No I don't XD.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2017 at 18:38
Originally posted by mlkpad14 mlkpad14 wrote:

Originally posted by mlkpad14 mlkpad14 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

yeah man.... too beautiful a day to waste your time man or to even care.. unless you can make them a bunch of limey's it won't make a damn bit of difference what kind of reason and logic you can manage. It isn't about the music.. it never was when you had a bunch of hacks in charge of additions...it is about perception and protecting the sanctity of the site and ... oh... where they came from haha

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

however IMO very underrated by many in their importance and influence.. none more than by this site.  The single biggest omission the site has.. if they had been english.. they'd have been added... in 2004
Bullsh*t.
No, I agree completely.
No I don't XD.


I can agree with that LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2017 at 20:12
Agree to disagree to a degree, agree'd ?   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2017 at 01:45
Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

I was speaking anecdotally, as I have encountered people outside (inside, but overwhelmingly outside) PA that have dismissed bands from the classic period for being from the United States, which I believe it a silly thing to do. But I shouldn't have phrased it as an immutable fact. Sorry. I still think though that my experience stands.
Unfortunately I don't. Anecdotal evidence is only of value when corroborated by undeniable fact(s) because that's the only way we can differentiate between an accurate representation and false generalisation. Sadly here you are using anecdotal evidence to support hearsay. 
If you would like me to fully rephrase myself I can:
In my personal experience, I've seen American bands get shot down simply for being American, especially when if they are from the 70's and juxtaposed with English bands that existed at the same time. I do not, however, think that due to Grateful Dead being American they were omitted from progarchives.com. But personally I could see from a subjective point of view where Micky might have gotten that idea.

I really didn't think something as silly as this would get you so ruffled, Dean.  I'm sorry if I was being confrontational, because I didn't mean it that way. I was speaking purely from personal experience. If you are looking for objectivity, it would take me a while to find you cold, hard facts.
Micky doesn't need subjectivity or objectivity to get himself ideas. Wink I'm not (as you say) "ruffled", I'm stoically pointing out that specious comments are "alternative facts" even if they appear to be supported by subjective anecdotal evidence. 

And just as Micky has become a self-caricature of the people's [keyboard] rebel he thinks he once was, I have adopted an over-the-top self-parodying tone throughout this thread to highlight the absolute silliness of the assertion that The Grateful Deaf would have been added in a flash if they had been English. Jim(forest) picked-up on the tongue-in-cheek humour in my posts here and I hope you will eventually, ['...an Appalachian zither from a hole in the ground' : how many clues do you need?].

The implication that there is an inherent and ingrained anti-American bias here at the PA (I couldn't care less for "outside") is secondary to that but is just as silly. I'll openly admit to disliking non-Prog Americana with a passion, there is a finite limit to the amount of southern fried electric cowboy music sung through the nose that I can listen to that is determined solely by my reaction time to hitting the "off" button on the radio. Fortunately none of that is Progressive Rock so my whining about it is not only irrelevant, it is also never an argument I could seriously use as reason for objecting to an addition - additions here are not based upon personal predilections (despite the sour-grape claims that they are). Nationalism aside, and I don't see anyone complaining the dearth of non-Italian bands in RPI, it could simply be that those US bands from the 'classic period' were either (a) a parallel development of Psych that was unrelated to Prog Rock or (b) just not very good. I vote for (a) myself regardless of how subjectively good or bad the music is or isn't.

And all this without rising to the blatantly obvious baiting "bunch of hacks in charge of additions" remark. [But if Micky would care to indicate where he would like his new arsehole ripped, I'll see what I can do to oblige] Tongue


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2017 at 02:33
Originally posted by AEProgman AEProgman wrote:

I am a fan of sorts, hung out with some Dead Heads in the early 80s and began to listen more.  Like the earlier stuff....American Beauty, Wake of the Flood, etc...  Also, like Terrapin Station and From the Mars Hotel, plus the later In the Dark was a little bit of pleasant surprise for me.


MMmhhh!!!.. I was also hanging out with Deadheads in the earlier 80's (I kind of miss those dudes), and got to see them 7 or 9 times.

A lot of GD albums have proggy moments, though I must say their country rock trilogy (Beauty Workingman, Shakedown) does nothing for me

The first three definitely are proto-prog, IMHO and the string of Flood/Mars/Allah/Terrapin would be enough to qualify them as prog-related


Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I was never a fan of their music and thought that SF bands like the Airplane and Quicksilver were much better.
Their extended jams and hours long concerts were probably a result of being on LSD and having the energy to play all night.


I'd also tend to prefer JA and QMS , but I'd have no problems seeing QMS and GD included in PA (though GD is a huge mother for the full discography). The Airplane (well, Casady and Kaukonen...and even Dryden/Covington) used to do six hours shows as well... First Hot Tuna, then JA set, then two-hours jams

I also don't think the band's nationality has anything to do with their PA inclusion or not

Originally posted by Larkstongue41 Larkstongue41 wrote:


Psych/Space Rock (sort of): Anthem of the Sun, Aoxomamoa
Folk: American Beauty, Workingman's Dead
JF: Blues For Allah
Crossover: Terrapin' Station


I wouldn't call Beauty and WD as folk, but rather country (nuance, mon cher Wink)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2017 at 03:38
Workingman's Dead is pretty boring - only Black Peter and Uncle John's Band were worthy. American Beauty, on the other hand, is quite exquisite for me. Shakedown Street has quite a number of excellent tracks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2017 at 04:56
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Agree to disagree to a degree, agree'd ?   

Very much so... LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2017 at 16:48
I'm starting to wonder if this is a discussion forum or a battleground. Maybe both.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2017 at 23:32
^ No battleground - not a violent one anyway. There may be a certain difference between 'creativity' and 'Progressive' with the Dead, though I think certain tracks qualify as bona-fide 'Prog', and more than likely, unintentionally. Just the way it is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2017 at 07:51
Hi,

Fair enough ... 

United Kingdom 1160
United States 2186
Italy 943
Netherlands 231

But then, the US is probably three, four or five times bigger and larger than all of those countries together. So the numbers are ... not being exactly interpreted correctly.

The US, for all intents and purposes, with their differences, from East to West, could almost be separated into 4 or 5 countries when it comes to defining music in America. The GD is not a good representative of the NY scene, or anything in NY is not a good representative of the SF/LA scene either ... and neither is Nashville!

Just for starters.

If anything, the GD could/should get some credit for the very long cuts and the extending of the trips, which I think a lot of European bands heard and enjoyed many times. Did these become an influence ... is another story and would require more study, and it's possible ... in FEELING, but not likely in journalistic strictly speaking progressive terms!

But we don't discuss feelings any more! They are not journalistic!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2017 at 15:47
I think it really comes down to what people perceive and define progressive music as, something PA is notoriously split on. And I don't mean in a cantankerous way, just humans holding differences of opinion as per usual. Personally, to a certain extent I conflate progressiveness with pioneering, and the Dead were certainly pioneers. I think they're progressive because, not only have they played pure prog rock before, their creation of the 'jam band' (a genre commonly perceived as being one of the most prolific and, well, progressive prog outlets in modern day) and their intuitive fusion of jazz, blues and psych was extremely creative for it's time and still holds up today.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2017 at 15:33
I personally think that the Grateful Dead has some prog elements that surface from time to time - it's the stuff that I gravitated towards when I moved back to the US from Japan for college - I play bass and a lot of the people I ended up playing with were really into the Dead so I had to learn a lot of their catalog and became a fan in the process. So Help on the Way/Slipknot!, Terrapin Station, the live versions of Eyes of the World with the section in 7/4 - this stuff seemed very natural to someone who grew up on Yes, Rush, Genesis, King Crimson, etc. 

Is there a section here about the definition of prog? I've never found an in-depth, musicological discussion here, but haven't really spent too much time looking. I've read a couple of academic (or pseudo-academic at least) books on progressive rock and find it interesting how they try and categorize it. Playing in odd time signatures seems to be a pretty important criteria - again, Rush, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson. Improvisation not so much, and yet it was an integral part of KC. The folk music element was essential to KC & ELP - maybe the Grateful Dead were an American version of that? 

But ultimately, I wouldn't categorize the Grateful Dead as "prog" - to me, they are one of those bands that transcend genre. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2017 at 18:29
Originally posted by hieronymous hieronymous wrote:

I personally think that the Grateful Dead has some prog elements that surface from time to time - it's the stuff that I gravitated towards when I moved back to the US from Japan for college - I play bass and a lot of the people I ended up playing with were really into the Dead so I had to learn a lot of their catalog and became a fan in the process. So Help on the Way/Slipknot!, Terrapin Station, the live versions of Eyes of the World with the section in 7/4 - this stuff seemed very natural to someone who grew up on Yes, Rush, Genesis, King Crimson, etc. 

Is there a section here about the definition of prog? I've never found an in-depth, musicological discussion here, but haven't really spent too much time looking. I've read a couple of academic (or pseudo-academic at least) books on progressive rock and find it interesting how they try and categorize it. Playing in odd time signatures seems to be a pretty important criteria - again, Rush, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson. Improvisation not so much, and yet it was an integral part of KC. The folk music element was essential to KC & ELP - maybe the Grateful Dead were an American version of that? 

But ultimately, I wouldn't categorize the Grateful Dead as "prog" - to me, they are one of those bands that transcend genre. 
A good question. Thumbs Up There's been numerous, but here's just a few:


However- I do think that resurrecting these threads may not cause that much of a response. You might be better off going full throttle and creating a whole new topic yourself, and doing so with an intriguing question to kindle curiosity. I think that's the way to go if you're looking to spark an in-depth discussion.

On the other hand you might not want to incur the wrath of the forum gods who may or may not smite you for bringing up previously discussed topics. Scary folks, them.


Edited by aglasshouse - April 19 2017 at 18:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2017 at 18:30
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

Fair enough ... 

United Kingdom 1160
United States 2186
Italy 943
Netherlands 231

But then, the US is probably three, four or five times bigger and larger than all of those countries together. So the numbers are ... not being exactly interpreted correctly.
Nice try but I merely presented the numbers and left their interpretation to the reader - any failure to interpret them correctly was entirely yours.

However, if you are going to nit-pick mathematics with me (and any regular readers of my posts will know that is an incredibly stupid thing to do) with respect to population: UK=65m + I=61m + NL=17m = 143m... USA=320m ... so the US has roughly twice the population of those countries added together. Not 3, 4 or 5 times ... just 2 times. Of course that still falls in the vague category of "more" but when throwing large numbers around there is a significant difference between 2x and 3x. When it comes to nit-picking, accuracy holds all the trump cards. 

If you're just talking land-mass area then your wild stabbing around in the dark guesses are still way off, the USA is 16 times biggerer than all those three countries addled together, but you can't be talking about that because it would be just plain dumb.

I suppose we could weigh everyone and then see whether the population of USA was 3, 4 or 5 times heavier.

Yet... Size of population is totally and utterly irrelevant since the artist numbers don't represent anything analysable. There are far too many unknown and unstated variables that contribute to the tallies of each nationality for any conclusion other than "there are more bands here from the USA than from any other country in teh Wurld" to be drawn. That's it. Unequivocal and undeniable - there are more US bands here that UK bands. 

Unfortunately there are many things that simple statement doesn't tell you which is why any interpretation of the numbers is going to be incorrect. Sorry, there are no prizes for stating the obvious.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

The US, for all intents and purposes, with their differences, from East to West, could almost be separated into 4 or 5 countries when it comes to defining music in America. The GD is not a good representative of the NY scene, or anything in NY is not a good representative of the SF/LA scene either ... and neither is Nashville!

Just for starters.
Now you're getting it... music is geographical... who'da thunkit? 

Except when it isn't...

Damn, I forgot every rule has an exception. Damn, even that's isn't true because when it comes to music there are almost as many exceptions as there are genres of music. And there's the problem - music styles form in small localised pockets but quickly spread across geographic boundaries thanks to radio and tours and those magic round bits of plastic that make sounds when you rub them in the correct manner. Thanks to these wonderful inventions Jam Bands, for example, can be found all over America from West Coast to East Coast and all the widdly bits in between, so the Gratefat Deaf may not be representative of the NY scene (wazzat? Studio 54 or CBHeBeGBs?) but they are related to the jam bands that can be found in NY state and other points further east, or north east or north-north-west (sorry, Wikipedia says Phish come from Vermont and my American geography is a bit rusty on Burlington's precise compass bearing from NY but I'm pretty sure that it's a lot closer to NY than it is to SF.)

The problem with theories is they are all right until some miserable sod comes along and proves them wrong. A theory that is only right some of the time isn't a theory, it's just a random collection of words that happened to coincide with something. Like, you know when you're walking along the sidewalk and you see a puddle of water on the ground so you think, oh, that's odd, I don't remember it raining but the puddle is there and rain makes puddles so it stands to reason that for the puddle to exist then it must have rained recently. But then you walk some more and notice that it was the only puddle on the sidewalk, which is peculiar since rain generally doesn't make just one puddle so perhaps it was a very localised shower, like there was a small rain cloud just big enough to make a solitary puddle on the paving... about the size of the average dog for example. So you develop a theory that isolated solitary puddles are caused by dog-sized rain clouds, which sounds very plausible...


Oh well, I've been here nearly ten years now and only have one law to my name, time for a second one:

Dean's 2nd Law: There are no generalisations in music.



Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

If anything, the GD could/should get some credit for the very long cuts and the extending of the trips, which I think a lot of European bands heard and enjoyed many times.
Which sounds plausible... but I suspect this is highly unlikely partly due to geography and partly due to lack of interest. Greatfun Deal simply weren't that popular enough over here for their long improvised jams to be heard by "a lot" of anyone in Europe, let alone anyone in a European band. There are many other ways in which European bands could have experienced long improv's, jams and extended solos without having to tyre-lever some lesser-spotted west coast jam band into the equation.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Did these become an influence ...
Nope. There just isn't any evidence that they could have and no viable reason why. Greatfat Dude didn't invent jamming and they certainly were not the first band to stretch a 2 minute song out to 20 minutes.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

is another story and would require more study,
...ooo, all of ten minutes I would imagine, if that.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

and it's possible ... in FEELING,
What? like "I have a FEELING one plus another one equals seven?" 

Honestly, feeling something is true does not make it true. It would be magic if the world worked like that, it really would. Literally, "magic".

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

but not likely in journalistic strictly speaking progressive terms!
You don't say.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

But we don't discuss feelings any more!
How does that make you feel?
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

They are not journalistic!
That's utter bollocks.

Music journalism is nothing but the reporting feelings. That's what the bulk of any journalistic commentary, interview, review or critique is - subjective, unprovable, untestable feelings.
 
Fortunately what we are dealing with here isn't music journalism. It's not academic musicology either, but that's a fair bit closer to what we are aiming at. Of course there is still a degree of subjectivity involved but that is not based upon feelings because that would require everyone involved having the same feelings and reactions, and that's never going to happen.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2017 at 18:36
I'm fairly certain that Dean's answer to the topic's question is "no", but that's just a hunch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2017 at 05:17
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


But then, the US is probably three, four or five times bigger and larger than all of those countries together. So the numbers are ... not being exactly interpreted correctly.

The US, for all intents and purposes, with their differences, from East to West, could almost be separated into 4 or 5 countries when it comes to defining music in America. The GD is not a good representative of the NY scene, or anything in NY is not a good representative of the SF/LA scene either ... and neither is Nashville!


I'll let Dean handle the maths (thoufghn we could add Germany and its 90M population and its countless prog/KR bands)... Better to rate the countries in prog per captaTongueLOL


Your dissection of the US into regions could've been once valid for the folk/country section (Appalachian, Cajun, Bluegrass, Hillbilly, C&W,etc...) but not for rock

The Rascals are from NYC (well NJ, but close enough) and yet they've nothing to envy to TGD, as you can see below (they've got a few other goodies in the genre too, including on that very album)



I'm seriously thinking that The Rascals could at least be also on PA as TDG would be


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2017 at 07:32
So how does all Grateful Dead threads end up with people discussing their relation to prog rock? Sure this is a prog site but still?
I love their live albums, particularly Dick's Picks, but I would never dream of suggesting them for inclusion. Oh well I guess some find it very important to have their fave band stamped with the progressive badge - like it was some kind of honour
I'd go as far as to say that they were a damn fine blues rock band that flirted around with other styles. Progressive blues perchance? Sorta like Edgar Broughton Band.

Oh and I played Black Star this morning. Yum.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2017 at 09:00
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:



I'll let Dean handle the maths (thoufghn we could add Germany and its 90M population and its countless prog/KR bands)... Better to rate the countries in prog per captaTongueLOL

Yeah, you'd have thought so, but with only 711 artists listed Germany isn't quite the Prog Nation it would at first seem to be.  

As for Prog per capita:
Countrypop (million)No. PA artistsµProg per capita
gb65116017.85
i6194315.46
nl1723113.59
f666279.50
d807118.89
usa32021866.83
j1272982.35

Once again, I merely present the numbers, how anyone interprets them is entirely up to them.


Edited by Dean - April 20 2017 at 09:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2017 at 09:46
Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

I'm fairly certain that Dean's answer to the topic's question is "no", but that's just a hunch
*shrug* I've not voiced an opinion one way or the other though admittedly I've made no secret of my general lack of interest in most things Americana with such a passion that fails to explain why I like Neil Young as much as I do. If anyone wants to infer that I dislike a band based solely on my posts here then there is little I can do to disabuse them of that since I have merely pointed out the logical errors in some of the comments.


Edited by Dean - April 20 2017 at 10:15
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