Grateful Dead |
Post Reply | Page <1234> |
Author | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mlkpad14
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 23 2017 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 665 |
Posted: April 16 2017 at 18:30 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
No, I agree completely.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mlkpad14
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 23 2017 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 665 |
Posted: April 16 2017 at 18:33 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
No I don't XD.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: April 16 2017 at 18:38 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I can agree with that |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Posted: April 16 2017 at 20:12 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Agree to disagree to a degree, agree'd ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 17 2017 at 01:45 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Micky doesn't need subjectivity or objectivity to get himself ideas. I'm not (as you say) "ruffled", I'm stoically pointing out that specious comments are "alternative facts" even if they appear to be supported by subjective anecdotal evidence. And just as Micky has become a self-caricature of the people's [keyboard] rebel he thinks he once was, I have adopted an over-the-top self-parodying tone throughout this thread to highlight the absolute silliness of the assertion that The Grateful Deaf would have been added in a flash if they had been English. Jim(forest) picked-up on the tongue-in-cheek humour in my posts here and I hope you will eventually, ['...an Appalachian zither from a hole in the ground' : how many clues do you need?]. The implication that there is an inherent and ingrained anti-American bias here at the PA (I couldn't care less for "outside") is secondary to that but is just as silly. I'll openly admit to disliking non-Prog Americana with a passion, there is a finite limit to the amount of southern fried electric cowboy music sung through the nose that I can listen to that is determined solely by my reaction time to hitting the "off" button on the radio. Fortunately none of that is Progressive Rock so my whining about it is not only irrelevant, it is also never an argument I could seriously use as reason for objecting to an addition - additions here are not based upon personal predilections (despite the sour-grape claims that they are). Nationalism aside, and I don't see anyone complaining the dearth of non-Italian bands in RPI, it could simply be that those US bands from the 'classic period' were either (a) a parallel development of Psych that was unrelated to Prog Rock or (b) just not very good. I vote for (a) myself regardless of how subjectively good or bad the music is or isn't. And all this without rising to the blatantly obvious baiting "a bunch of hacks in charge of additions" remark. [But if Micky would care to indicate where he would like his new arsehole ripped, I'll see what I can do to oblige] |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
What?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 19618 |
Posted: April 17 2017 at 02:33 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MMmhhh!!!.. I was also hanging out with Deadheads in the earlier 80's (I kind of miss those dudes), and got to see them 7 or 9 times. A lot of GD albums have proggy moments, though I must say their country rock trilogy (Beauty Workingman, Shakedown) does nothing for me The first three definitely are proto-prog, IMHO and the string of Flood/Mars/Allah/Terrapin would be enough to qualify them as prog-related
I'd also tend to prefer JA and QMS , but I'd have no problems seeing QMS and GD included in PA (though GD is a huge mother for the full discography). The Airplane (well, Casady and Kaukonen...and even Dryden/Covington) used to do six hours shows as well... First Hot Tuna, then JA set, then two-hours jams I also don't think the band's nationality has anything to do with their PA inclusion or not
I wouldn't call Beauty and WD as folk, but rather country (nuance, mon cher ) |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Posted: April 17 2017 at 03:38 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Workingman's Dead is pretty boring - only Black Peter and Uncle John's Band were worthy. American Beauty, on the other hand, is quite exquisite for me. Shakedown Street has quite a number of excellent tracks.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mlkpad14
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 23 2017 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 665 |
Posted: April 17 2017 at 04:56 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Very much so...
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
https://gamecrazyprofessional.weebly.com/
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
aglasshouse
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 27 2014 Location: riding the MOAB Status: Offline Points: 1505 |
Posted: April 17 2017 at 16:48 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I'm starting to wonder if this is a discussion forum or a battleground. Maybe both.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
http://fryingpanmedia.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Posted: April 17 2017 at 23:32 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
^ No battleground - not a violent one anyway. There may be a certain difference between 'creativity' and 'Progressive' with the Dead, though I think certain tracks qualify as bona-fide 'Prog', and more than likely, unintentionally. Just the way it is.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16163 |
Posted: April 18 2017 at 07:51 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hi,
Fair enough ... United Kingdom 1160 United States 2186 Italy 943 Netherlands 231 But then, the US is probably three, four or five times bigger and larger than all of those countries together. So the numbers are ... not being exactly interpreted correctly. The US, for all intents and purposes, with their differences, from East to West, could almost be separated into 4 or 5 countries when it comes to defining music in America. The GD is not a good representative of the NY scene, or anything in NY is not a good representative of the SF/LA scene either ... and neither is Nashville! Just for starters. If anything, the GD could/should get some credit for the very long cuts and the extending of the trips, which I think a lot of European bands heard and enjoyed many times. Did these become an influence ... is another story and would require more study, and it's possible ... in FEELING, but not likely in journalistic strictly speaking progressive terms! But we don't discuss feelings any more! They are not journalistic!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
aglasshouse
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 27 2014 Location: riding the MOAB Status: Offline Points: 1505 |
Posted: April 18 2017 at 15:47 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I think it really comes down to what people perceive and define progressive music as, something PA is notoriously split on. And I don't mean in a cantankerous way, just humans holding differences of opinion as per usual. Personally, to a certain extent I conflate progressiveness with pioneering, and the Dead were certainly pioneers. I think they're progressive because, not only have they played pure prog rock before, their creation of the 'jam band' (a genre commonly perceived as being one of the most prolific and, well, progressive prog outlets in modern day) and their intuitive fusion of jazz, blues and psych was extremely creative for it's time and still holds up today.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
http://fryingpanmedia.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
hieronymous
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 27 2012 Location: Oakland, CA Status: Offline Points: 308 |
Posted: April 19 2017 at 15:33 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I personally think that the Grateful Dead has some prog elements that surface from time to time - it's the stuff that I gravitated towards when I moved back to the US from Japan for college - I play bass and a lot of the people I ended up playing with were really into the Dead so I had to learn a lot of their catalog and became a fan in the process. So Help on the Way/Slipknot!, Terrapin Station, the live versions of Eyes of the World with the section in 7/4 - this stuff seemed very natural to someone who grew up on Yes, Rush, Genesis, King Crimson, etc.
Is there a section here about the definition of prog? I've never found an in-depth, musicological discussion here, but haven't really spent too much time looking. I've read a couple of academic (or pseudo-academic at least) books on progressive rock and find it interesting how they try and categorize it. Playing in odd time signatures seems to be a pretty important criteria - again, Rush, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson. Improvisation not so much, and yet it was an integral part of KC. The folk music element was essential to KC & ELP - maybe the Grateful Dead were an American version of that? But ultimately, I wouldn't categorize the Grateful Dead as "prog" - to me, they are one of those bands that transcend genre.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
aglasshouse
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 27 2014 Location: riding the MOAB Status: Offline Points: 1505 |
Posted: April 19 2017 at 18:29 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
A good question. There's been numerous, but here's just a few: However- I do think that resurrecting these threads may not cause that much of a response. You might be better off going full throttle and creating a whole new topic yourself, and doing so with an intriguing question to kindle curiosity. I think that's the way to go if you're looking to spark an in-depth discussion. On the other hand you might not want to incur the wrath of the forum gods who may or may not smite you for bringing up previously discussed topics. Scary folks, them.
Edited by aglasshouse - April 19 2017 at 18:33 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
http://fryingpanmedia.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 19 2017 at 18:30 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Nice try but I merely presented the numbers and left their interpretation to the reader - any failure to interpret them correctly was entirely yours. However, if you are going to nit-pick mathematics with me (and any regular readers of my posts will know that is an incredibly stupid thing to do) with respect to population: UK=65m + I=61m + NL=17m = 143m... USA=320m ... so the US has roughly twice the population of those countries added together. Not 3, 4 or 5 times ... just 2 times. Of course that still falls in the vague category of "more" but when throwing large numbers around there is a significant difference between 2x and 3x. When it comes to nit-picking, accuracy holds all the trump cards. If you're just talking land-mass area then your wild stabbing around in the dark guesses are still way off, the USA is 16 times biggerer than all those three countries addled together, but you can't be talking about that because it would be just plain dumb. I suppose we could weigh everyone and then see whether the population of USA was 3, 4 or 5 times heavier. Yet... Size of population is totally and utterly irrelevant since the artist numbers don't represent anything analysable. There are far too many unknown and unstated variables that contribute to the tallies of each nationality for any conclusion other than "there are more bands here from the USA than from any other country in teh Wurld" to be drawn. That's it. Unequivocal and undeniable - there are more US bands here that UK bands. Unfortunately there are many things that simple statement doesn't tell you which is why any interpretation of the numbers is going to be incorrect. Sorry, there are no prizes for stating the obvious.
Now you're getting it... music is geographical... who'da thunkit? Except when it isn't... Damn, I forgot every rule has an exception. Damn, even that's isn't true because when it comes to music there are almost as many exceptions as there are genres of music. And there's the problem - music styles form in small localised pockets but quickly spread across geographic boundaries thanks to radio and tours and those magic round bits of plastic that make sounds when you rub them in the correct manner. Thanks to these wonderful inventions Jam Bands, for example, can be found all over America from West Coast to East Coast and all the widdly bits in between, so the Gratefat Deaf may not be representative of the NY scene (wazzat? Studio 54 or CBHeBeGBs?) but they are related to the jam bands that can be found in NY state and other points further east, or north east or north-north-west (sorry, Wikipedia says Phish come from Vermont and my American geography is a bit rusty on Burlington's precise compass bearing from NY but I'm pretty sure that it's a lot closer to NY than it is to SF.) The problem with theories is they are all right until some miserable sod comes along and proves them wrong. A theory that is only right some of the time isn't a theory, it's just a random collection of words that happened to coincide with something. Like, you know when you're walking along the sidewalk and you see a puddle of water on the ground so you think, oh, that's odd, I don't remember it raining but the puddle is there and rain makes puddles so it stands to reason that for the puddle to exist then it must have rained recently. But then you walk some more and notice that it was the only puddle on the sidewalk, which is peculiar since rain generally doesn't make just one puddle so perhaps it was a very localised shower, like there was a small rain cloud just big enough to make a solitary puddle on the paving... about the size of the average dog for example. So you develop a theory that isolated solitary puddles are caused by dog-sized rain clouds, which sounds very plausible... Oh well, I've been here nearly ten years now and only have one law to my name, time for a second one: Dean's 2nd Law: There are no generalisations in music.
Which sounds plausible... but I suspect this is highly unlikely partly due to geography and partly due to lack of interest. Greatfun Deal simply weren't that popular enough over here for their long improvised jams to be heard by "a lot" of anyone in Europe, let alone anyone in a European band. There are many other ways in which European bands could have experienced long improv's, jams and extended solos without having to tyre-lever some lesser-spotted west coast jam band into the equation.
Nope. There just isn't any evidence that they could have and no viable reason why. Greatfat Dude didn't invent jamming and they certainly were not the first band to stretch a 2 minute song out to 20 minutes.
...ooo, all of ten minutes I would imagine, if that.
What? like "I have a FEELING one plus another one equals seven?" Honestly, feeling something is true does not make it true. It would be magic if the world worked like that, it really would. Literally, "magic".
You don't say.
How does that make you feel?
That's utter bollocks. Music journalism is nothing but the reporting feelings. That's what the bulk of any journalistic commentary, interview, review or critique is - subjective, unprovable, untestable feelings. Fortunately what we are dealing with here isn't music journalism. It's not academic musicology either, but that's a fair bit closer to what we are aiming at. Of course there is still a degree of subjectivity involved but that is not based upon feelings because that would require everyone involved having the same feelings and reactions, and that's never going to happen.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
What?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
aglasshouse
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 27 2014 Location: riding the MOAB Status: Offline Points: 1505 |
Posted: April 19 2017 at 18:36 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I'm fairly certain that Dean's answer to the topic's question is "no", but that's just a hunch
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
http://fryingpanmedia.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 19618 |
Posted: April 20 2017 at 05:17 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I'll let Dean handle the maths (thoufghn we could add Germany and its 90M population and its countless prog/KR bands)... Better to rate the countries in prog per capta Your dissection of the US into regions could've been once valid for the folk/country section (Appalachian, Cajun, Bluegrass, Hillbilly, C&W,etc...) but not for rock The Rascals are from NYC (well NJ, but close enough) and yet they've nothing to envy to TGD, as you can see below (they've got a few other goodies in the genre too, including on that very album) I'm seriously thinking that The Rascals could at least be also on PA as TDG would be |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: April 20 2017 at 07:32 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
So how does all Grateful Dead threads end up with people discussing their relation to prog rock? Sure this is a prog site but still?
I love their live albums, particularly Dick's Picks, but I would never dream of suggesting them for inclusion. Oh well I guess some find it very important to have their fave band stamped with the progressive badge - like it was some kind of honour I'd go as far as to say that they were a damn fine blues rock band that flirted around with other styles. Progressive blues perchance? Sorta like Edgar Broughton Band. Oh and I played Black Star this morning. Yum. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 20 2017 at 09:00 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Yeah, you'd have thought so, but with only 711 artists listed Germany isn't quite the Prog Nation it would at first seem to be. As for Prog per capita:
Once again, I merely present the numbers, how anyone interprets them is entirely up to them.
Edited by Dean - April 20 2017 at 09:54 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
What?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 20 2017 at 09:46 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
*shrug* I've not voiced an opinion one way or the other though admittedly I've made no secret of my general lack of interest in most things Americana with such a passion that fails to explain why I like Neil Young as much as I do. If anyone wants to infer that I dislike a band based solely on my posts here then there is little I can do to disabuse them of that since I have merely pointed out the logical errors in some of the comments.
Edited by Dean - April 20 2017 at 10:15 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
What?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page <1234> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |