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mechanicalflattery View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2017 at 19:45
This type of thread is always awkward, if not outright perturbing. I haven't been on these forums for a full year yet, but I've already seen this one pop up one other time. If I recall correctly, I think I ended up arguing with someone who believed teenage girls to be inherently more vapid than teenage boys, or some such nonsense. If anything, the best actual answer I can come up with is that men are likelier to create and enjoy art that's immensely pretentious and self-absorbed. Prog and the avant-garde can both certainly struggle with this. Holding one's own tastes to be "artistic" and all others to be pedestrian or lowly is a recipe for elitism. If one's wife doesn't want to listen to Tales From Topographic Oceans every night, by God is that an understandable position (and that's a great album). Have a little empathy. Every genre is inherently ridiculous, and holding any given genre to be supreme, as others have pointed out, is condescending and absurd. Anyone who loves music as art, and not merely music as personal reinforcement, can find quality in a vast variety of styles and genres. 

And thank God I copied that post before I tried to send it! f**king robot tests...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2017 at 21:49
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

... women as a whole tend to look at the big picture rather than obsess about the tiniest detail.
Really? Where did that come from? Why is this perception that I've never noticed ever ever ever in my life so obviously true, as opposed to the ubiquitously made observation that women (tend) to not like Prog? If we're explaining away one purported myth with another purported myth we're not making much progress.
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2017 at 22:46
Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

Ah, wonderful. I was actually thinking of her as a rare woman musician having something to do with Prog. I saw them a few times in Buffalo when I was growing up. Thank you for that. I think my point about the rarity of women musicians in Prog still stands. Just go through your record collection and tally the genders up. I think Jazz probably suffered from lack of representation of women too.





Edited by HackettFan - April 27 2017 at 22:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2017 at 23:42
I think part of the reason why there are not as many women who like prog as men is cultural. Children learn gender roles at a young age and the media often intentionally or unintentionally reinforces a set of cultural norms, such how certain behaviors are not ladylike. Although it might not go to the extent it has in the past, I think that the idea that women are the gentler sex promoted the idea that they should be more polite, passive and meant to be pursued. Think of how in many situational comedies, the women are portrayed as the voice of reason compared to the antics of the male lead. If I'm being honest with myself, I'll admit some of my own views are misogynistic.

I am reminded of a 2014 review of 1986 video game Alter Ego, written by Jimmy Maher, aka The Digital Antiquarian, whose blog chronicles the history of video games, with an emphasis on interactive fiction (aka text-based adventures):
"As with a lot of games I write about, I played Alter Ego with my wife Dorte. She played with the female version, I with the male, and we took turns playing through a life phase at a time and comparing notes. Our agreed approach was to each play ourselves, making the choices we thought we would make at those ages in those situations. As we played, I found myself getting more and more angry at the game and sad for Dorte, as I kept getting to do cool and/or bold things and she kept being offered only meek girlie stuff. I got to go skydiving; she got to get an eyebrow tattoo. I slashed a hated teacher’s tires; she got a new hairdo. I got to buy video equipment or a flash new computer; she got to buy jewelry or “gourmet cooking accessories.” She always got offered the subordinate role, the pretty girl cheering on the boys who were actually doing something. I got to try out for the baseball team; she got to try out for the cheerleading squad. I got to start a rock band with some buddies; she got to call in to a radio show and win backstage passes to a concert."

Also, progressive rock was long seen by society as a nerdy hobby, together with pastimes such as science fiction, fantasy, role-playing games, wargames, programming and video games. Nerds are generally depicted as being unpopular, overweight or scrawny, having poor social skills, poor fashion sense, poor hygiene, in other words, the complete opposite of a conventionally attractive woman. I think this reason also plays a role in how fewer women work in the STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, mathematics). In fact, the media still generally portrays being an actress, singer or fashion model as the acme of success for women.

Additionally, the great majority of prog musicians are male (as in many other fields), so I can understand if some feel a lack of inclusion. I think this also plays a role in why fewer women pursue STEM careers. In many fields, characteristics such as boldness, aggressiveness, rebelliousness, stubbornness and challenging convention are lauded, the very things women were instilled to eschew.

That is not to say I think that cultural norms are entirely responsible for fewer women being interested in prog compared to men. I do think women are better at reading and interpreting social cues, expressing empathy and that social interactions play a more important role in their lives. As such, I can see how many women could prefer to listen to the same music their friends listen or to music that is meant to be enjoyed in a social context, such as parties, dancing, or karaoke.

On an unrelated note, the thought just occurred to me that certain conditions, such as color blindness, affect men disproportionately compared to women due to the fact that women have two X chromosomes (which are responsible for a lot of mental functions), so that if there is a recessive gene on one chromosome, its can still be masked if the other X chromosome has the dominant allele. Thus, the same X chromosome has a normalizing effect. I do not claim to be an authority on genetics beyond what I remember from high school and this is pure speculation on my part, but perhaps this same effect might be responsible for some of the rather colorful personalities in the music world and why more men might be interested in the innovations characteristic to prog. After writing this entire paragraph out, I realized I am basically claiming that men have a higher rate of incidence for a "prog gene". Maybe I need some sleep...


Edited by Replayer - April 27 2017 at 23:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 00:21
This is crazy.........they don't like it cause they don't like the music, period. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 05:11
Because prog bands are full of mostly unkempt hairy, ugly men who are up themselves (!).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 05:18
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

There are plenty of women at ProgDay & RIO, mix is probably 75:25.


Indeed. Almost half of ProgDay's organizing committee are women - all good friends of ours, and into rather challenging stuff, as I am myself. If you want to get an idea of what I like, click on either of the links in my signature. Unfortunately, due to personal issues and general burnout, I have given up reviewing, but I am still on the lookout for interesting new music. Though I don't dislike  music that has plenty of melody (far from that), a lot of what is widely considered "woman-friendly" prog bores me to tears. Maybe I am an exception, but I am not the only one.

As a side note, these discussions (which crop up on the site every now and then) do not really help to make PA more attractive to women. In fact, some of the remarks I have seen in this thread are not particularly complimentary towards us. Anyway, one thing is for sure: women as a whole tend to look at the big picture rather than obsess about the tiniest detail. The obsession with categorizing that is so distinctive of the "prog community" (though not limited to it) is definitely more of a masculine than a feminine trait.


Raff,

Though I have some fairly musically adventurous female friends (but unfortunately not my best/girlfriendOuch), one must recognize that prog audiences are (sadly, if I may sayCry) not filled with screaming girls throwing their bras at the Lead SingatraWink Singer. LOL

you can't deny that there are some music genres that cater to women rather than men and the other way around... Prog is of "the other way around" category, whether it is intentional or not. Not most likely, BTW.

As Neal Schon from Journey once remarked: for their first three or four years of existence, their audiences par 90% males and once Steve Perry was in the band, all a sudden 90% of the audience was female. (now, I'm not comparing SP to Sinatra, here)Tongue

There can be 50 reasons (some more macho than others) for this situation, but I won't get into them, as I already appear even more a sexist Pig to you as I am already.

If we were committed into making that list, you'd probably be offuscated and disgusted, because you'd think that 49 out of those 50 reasons wouldn't apply to you... But you and I both know that you're not the "standard" female music fan....  something that you'd probably define yourself as in private or small committee, but would object to as a member of the feminine persuasion in a wide-open forum like this macho snakepit.






 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 05:55
No one likes prog so why should women be left out of the equation?
There are maybe 37 prog fans worldwide. My take is that at least 12 are women if not transgendered.

Why do most men dislike Twilight?
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 06:28
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

And before anyone takes Vompatti's post seriously he's just having fun being provocative.


Enjoy if you're meant to , but this kind of happy slap fun feels to me like pollution.  Anyway, I know more from him about fantasies I didn't want to know, than about  his tastes in prog, so there must be more suitable forums than this one for someone like him.

As for the women in prog, if one grafts my head on an average female body (after proper female head re-shape), I'll expect to feel less squared and more round, less bold + strong and more socially dependant, hence my taste for comforting lyrics. Resp. comforting for my kids if I have kids, for my couple if I'm in a relationship with no kid, or for me if I'm single.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 07:34
Originally posted by Replayer Replayer wrote:

I think part of the reason why there are not as many women who like prog as men is cultural. Children learn gender roles at a young age and the media often intentionally or unintentionally reinforces a set of cultural norms, such how certain behaviors are not ladylike. Although it might not go to the extent it has in the past, I think that the idea that women are the gentler sex promoted the idea that they should be more polite, passive and meant to be pursued. Think of how in many situational comedies, the women are portrayed as the voice of reason compared to the antics of the male lead. If I'm being honest with myself, I'll admit some of my own views are misogynistic.

I am reminded of a 2014 review of 1986 video game Alter Ego, written by Jimmy Maher, aka The Digital Antiquarian, whose blog chronicles the history of video games, with an emphasis on interactive fiction (aka text-based adventures):
"As with a lot of games I write about, I played Alter Ego with my wife Dorte. She played with the female version, I with the male, and we took turns playing through a life phase at a time and comparing notes. Our agreed approach was to each play ourselves, making the choices we thought we would make at those ages in those situations. As we played, I found myself getting more and more angry at the game and sad for Dorte, as I kept getting to do cool and/or bold things and she kept being offered only meek girlie stuff. I got to go skydiving; she got to get an eyebrow tattoo. I slashed a hated teacher’s tires; she got a new hairdo. I got to buy video equipment or a flash new computer; she got to buy jewelry or “gourmet cooking accessories.” She always got offered the subordinate role, the pretty girl cheering on the boys who were actually doing something. I got to try out for the baseball team; she got to try out for the cheerleading squad. I got to start a rock band with some buddies; she got to call in to a radio show and win backstage passes to a concert."

Also, progressive rock was long seen by society as a nerdy hobby, together with pastimes such as science fiction, fantasy, role-playing games, wargames, programming and video games. Nerds are generally depicted as being unpopular, overweight or scrawny, having poor social skills, poor fashion sense, poor hygiene, in other words, the complete opposite of a conventionally attractive woman. I think this reason also plays a role in how fewer women work in the STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, mathematics). In fact, the media still generally portrays being an actress, singer or fashion model as the acme of success for women.

Additionally, the great majority of prog musicians are male (as in many other fields), so I can understand if some feel a lack of inclusion. I think this also plays a role in why fewer women pursue STEM careers. In many fields, characteristics such as boldness, aggressiveness, rebelliousness, stubbornness and challenging convention are lauded, the very things women were instilled to eschew.

That is not to say I think that cultural norms are entirely responsible for fewer women being interested in prog compared to men. I do think women are better at reading and interpreting social cues, expressing empathy and that social interactions play a more important role in their lives. As such, I can see how many women could prefer to listen to the same music their friends listen or to music that is meant to be enjoyed in a social context, such as parties, dancing, or karaoke.

On an unrelated note, the thought just occurred to me that certain conditions, such as color blindness, affect men disproportionately compared to women due to the fact that women have two X chromosomes (which are responsible for a lot of mental functions), so that if there is a recessive gene on one chromosome, its can still be masked if the other X chromosome has the dominant allele. Thus, the same X chromosome has a normalizing effect. I do not claim to be an authority on genetics beyond what I remember from high school and this is pure speculation on my part, but perhaps this same effect might be responsible for some of the rather colorful personalities in the music world and why more men might be interested in the innovations characteristic to prog. After writing this entire paragraph out, I realized I am basically claiming that men have a higher rate of incidence for a "prog gene". Maybe I need some sleep...


I've found I think and work best the less sleep I get LOL Interesting post... if way over-complicating it.

Again.. plenty of women like prog.  It goes back to my tongue in cheek post...  perhaps due to those cultural norms or whatever but it goes beyond merely liking or not liking the music.  I've been to prog shows of current bands where it was a rough 50-50 split men to women.. what men feel the need to do that women apparantly do not... is identify themselves through the music they like which leads them to sites like this that they can revel with others in their 'superior' tastes and overpowering tastes and intellects. Women.. pfff.. they don't have the time or inclination to beat their chests as men do. They enjoy what they do and leave it at that. It doesn't define who they are as many men seem apt to do.. with music.. or their politics.. or whatever.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 11:12
In my experience there are a lot of women who like Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis, ELP, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, Steven Wilson/PT, Rush, Moody Blues, Kansas etc. The thing is that most of them are classic rock or mainstream rock fans but not really prog fans. In other words they are what I call "accidental prog fans." They don't deliberately or intentionally go out of their way looking for prog the way guys do. To be fair there are plenty of male "accidental prog fans" also but the number of hardcore fans or deliberate fans seems to be higher among guys. That has been my experience. There could be a myriad of reasons for this. One is maybe men are just more interested or maybe women don't do as much research and come across the term prog as much as men do. I'm not sure. As for how they got into the ones they do like. Maybe they find out about those bands(the ones I mentioned)from the radio or maybe they have been fans for a long time. In the case of PT/SW he somehow managed to get attention and promotion at some point beyond the typical prog media. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - April 28 2017 at 11:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 11:20
Originally posted by Larkstongue41 Larkstongue41 wrote:

No gender judgment here but from my experience men are generally much more into music  (not just prog) than females. Maybe it's just my generation. Also now that I think of it, I believe women are much more inclined towards visual arts. Perhaps that could be an interesting case to study actually....

A general statement for sure but I would have to agree with this. I don't know what generation you are(if you are an "older" prog fan or not)but I suppose it doesn't really matter. Women just tend to be more casual(over all) about music than men. I remember talking to a guy who was going on about concerts and bands but later when I talked to his wife she said she just wasn't much into music. I know there are men who aren't much into music too but I think for the men who are into it they tend to go deeper(especially where prog is concerned). As for visual arts I would agree with that too. Last year I took a drawing class and there were way more women than men in the class. I have noticed there are more women into painting in general. Whenever I go into a store like Michaels I don't see many men. If you look at musicians it's more or less the exact opposite with way more male musicians than female. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 12:49

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Pekka Pekka wrote:

I once spent a long night with a girl I sort of vaguely knew, chatting on MSN Messenger (is that still a thing?) about all the cool bands we were digging up from the PA database as we talked. Discovering stuff like PFM, Isildur's Bane, Novalis etc. together.

That was 12 years ago - now we've been married for six years, have two kids and about 2400 albums.

They're out there somewhere, you might bump into one when you least expect it.



awesome man... good see ya Pekka.. and that isn't enough.. kids or albums LOL

and no one understands that better than me Heart


Oh albums I agree on, but kids... our mutual understanding now, having made it out of the baby years relatively sane, is that babies are perfectly fine as long as you can hand them to someone else when they start making demanding noises. In fact both by sister and brother are having kids this year, super happy for them.

I guess it's time for my yearly check-in at PA, nice to see you still around, I hope you and Raff are doing well Smile


Edited by Pekka - April 28 2017 at 12:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 13:27
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

No one likes prog so why should women be left out of the equation?
There are maybe 37 prog fans worldwide. My take is that at least 12 are women if not transgendered.

Why do most men dislike Twilight?


37 ?!?!?! I think you might be counting yourself twice.


Re: Twitlight. Personally, my manhood is threatened by buff, tan, teenage vampires.
Honestly, I don't know any adults who enjoy it, regardless of gender.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 13:54
... and what do women really want?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 16:31
Originally posted by Pekka Pekka wrote:


Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Pekka Pekka wrote:

I once spent a long night with a girl I sort of vaguely knew, chatting on MSN Messenger (is that still a thing?) about all the cool bands we were digging up from the PA database as we talked. Discovering stuff like PFM, Isildur's Bane, Novalis etc. together.

That was 12 years ago - now we've been married for six years, have two kids and about 2400 albums.

They're out there somewhere, you might bump into one when you least expect it.



awesome man... good see ya Pekka.. and that isn't enough.. kids or albums LOL

and no one understands that better than me Heart


Oh albums I agree on, but kids... our mutual understanding now, having made it out of the baby years relatively sane, is that babies are perfectly fine as long as you can hand them to someone else when they start making demanding noises. In fact both by sister and brother are having kids this year, super happy for them.

I guess it's time for my yearly check-in at PA, nice to see you still around, I hope you and Raff are doing well Smile


sane and with the marriage intact... well done for it sure isn't easy is it. ClapCool Yeah we are still doing great and loving life and each others company (ie she hasn't tired of me yet). 

Good to still some of the old crew still drop by and check in.. see again next year I suppose! LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 16:44
Why don't many girls like the Beatles? 
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 17:16
The female cat I am currently fostering seems to enjoy prog more than the male cat I had for many years
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 17:21
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

The female cat I am currently fostering seems to enjoy prog more than the male cat I had for many years


now that would be a fascinating detour for this thread ..  we all think we know about the differences between men and women... but male and female cats?? Who really knows what cats think.. much less female cats LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2017 at 18:06
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

The female cat I am currently fostering seems to enjoy prog more than the male cat I had for many years


now that would be a fascinating detour for this thread ..  we all think we know about the differences between men and women... but male and female cats?? Who really knows what cats think.. much less female cats LOL

Her name is Catrina...discuss
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