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When was Genesis officially not prog?

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noni View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2017 at 15:04
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

'Officially not Prog' is no more an exact science than considering when someone is 'officially middle aged?'Ermm

One of the oldest man died apparently aged 145 years old!...  Fancy saying I'm 72 years old  and middle aged!!...Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2017 at 20:43
Originally posted by Upbeat Tango Monday Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:

Commercial this, commercial that. Every band wants to sell records.
As a matter of fact, Genesis "sold out" when they started doing prog, since it was the next big thing...and that's ok.
That said, if we leave From Genesis to Revelation and Calling All Stations behind (maybe), every record has proggy moments, Dodo/Lurker, The Brazilian and Fading Lights, for instance.


I haven't heard "From Genesis to Revelation", but on "Calling all Stations" I would think at least "The Dividing Line" is a bit proggy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ClaudeV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2017 at 21:29
Listen to this medley by one musician. You will see that there is prog on every album.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoeDent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2017 at 00:10
They never totally left prog alone. If anything, they should be praised more for fusing together prog (unusual chords and time signatures) and pop (catchy tunes). Don't tell me Tonight, Tonight, Tonight isn't at least a bit prog, for just one example.

Edited by RoeDent - May 06 2017 at 00:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Erwaco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2017 at 11:44
When they decided to allow Collins to front the band. Should have kept him in the background.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2017 at 20:54
As far as I understand, the more prominent composer remained being Tony Banks, and for the most part the leader of the band, so I still believe he was more responsible for any change of direction than Collins. On the other hand, I think they have agreed that it was mostly a collective decision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2017 at 21:57
Originally posted by Upbeat Tango Monday Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:

Commercial this, commercial that. Every band wants to sell records.
As a matter of fact, Genesis "sold out" when they started doing prog, since it was the next big thing...and that's ok.


Prog was never the next big thing.

That's what we dream of...The 70's, everybody loved Prog.

That's not true, it was more popular than today but never was a real popular genre.
            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2017 at 23:02
^DSOTM was quite popular. There was plenty of popular Prog in its day. Beyond that Prog was and still is an unsuccessful genre because it was and remains a largely unknown genre (if it is a genre at all).

The OP is not asking when Genesis became Pop. It attempted to be popular with Harold the Barrel, Seven Stones, Harlequin. It got its first taste of popularity with I Know What I Like. It started introducing commercial schlock with Robbery, Assault and Battery and with All in a Mouse's Night. The OP asks when they were no longer Prog. I say they were no longer Prog with And Then There Were Three... because they were no longer experimenting. Having grandiose keyboard sounds warmed over from the previous album does not make it Prog. Being keyboard heavy (along with occasional obligatory and very pedestrian guitar leads) does not make it Progressive. The only experiment, if there was one was to shorten pieces. They found their Pop calling by combining shortened pieces with schlock to produce Follow You Follow Me.

Duke has not a bit of Prog on it except for Duke's Travels. Duke's Travels and Second Home By the Sea are both Neo-Prog. The title track on Abacab is a guilty pleasure for me. Mama I enjoy without guilt. The rest since ATTWT is Pop in the commercial schlock sense.





Edited by HackettFan - May 06 2017 at 23:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2017 at 01:31
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

^DSOTM was quite popular. There was plenty of popular Prog in its day. Beyond that Prog was and still is an unsuccessful genre because it was and remains a largely unknown genre (if it is a genre at all).

The OP is not asking when Genesis became Pop. It attempted to be popular with Harold the Barrel, Seven Stones, Harlequin. It got its first taste of popularity with I Know What I Like. It started introducing commercial schlock with Robbery, Assault and Battery and with All in a Mouse's Night. The OP asks when they were no longer Prog. I say they were no longer Prog with And Then There Were Three... because they were no longer experimenting. Having grandiose keyboard sounds warmed over from the previous album does not make it Prog. Being keyboard heavy (along with occasional obligatory and very pedestrian guitar leads) does not make it Progressive. The only experiment, if there was one was to shorten pieces. They found their Pop calling by combining shortened pieces with schlock to produce Follow You Follow Me.

Duke has not a bit of Prog on it except for Duke's Travels. Duke's Travels and Second Home By the Sea are both Neo-Prog. The title track on Abacab is a guilty pleasure for me. Mama I enjoy without guilt. The rest since ATTWT is Pop in the commercial schlock sense.





No argument with the gist of your post (as ELP's Tarkus got to No 1 in the UK album charts in '71) but DSOTM was maybe an unfortunate choice i.e. most plain vanilla rock fans 'get' that album while most plain vanilla rock fans probably don't really 'get' either Tarkus or Genesis from Trespass through to Selling England by the Pound
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2017 at 03:10
It depends.

It depends on who you are, where you live, how old you are now and when you first got into Genesis (other than hearing them on the radio or listening to them on Spottythigh...)

More over it depends on how old you were when:
  1. Peter Gabriel left Genesis
  2. Steve Hackett left Genesis
  3. Phil Collins released Face Value
Because if your answer to any of those three statements is less than, say, 10 then your view of when Genesis stopped being a troo-bloo Prog band is likely to radically different to mine. Similarly if you don't live in Middle-England, or at least didn't live in the Home Counties during the 1970s then your answer is also going to be somewhat different to mine. And from my perspective as a Genesis fan from 1972 through to their appearance at the Knebworth Festival in 1978 I'm going to have to say that the Spot the Pigeon EP was the moment that I when I started to have my doubts and the hearing '...And Then There Were Three' on its release in 1978 was a heart-sinking moment for me because whatever that album was, it wasn't a "Genesis" album as far as I was concerned.


Edited by Dean - May 07 2017 at 03:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quinino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2017 at 04:29
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It depends.

'...And Then There Were Three' on its release in 1978 was a heart-sinking moment for me because whatever that album was, it wasn't a "Genesis" album as far as I was concerned.


 I felt the same but on second (and more) listening I did come to realize it was full of good music and even today stop by quite frequently (sort of).

In my case it was the last of their albums I bought, never really got to enjoy Duke much enough Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2017 at 18:44
Of my two fav bands---especially in the 80's ---early 90's---Genesis always kept the quality high and put out some really great proggy material----was it Supper's ready prog?---no that is some deep art---but they did some very tasteful long tunes and never got cheesy---not even on Invisible Touch.Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cemego Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2017 at 15:34
First of all, I love Genesis.  Second of all I believe there is a little prog element to every Genesis album.  There is a distinct moment where the prog side of Genesis was substantially downplayed.  I believe it started to get downgraded when they started writing songs as a group.  I always thought Banks was more of the Prog writer.  I would say Duke was where Genesis started un-progging themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2017 at 05:29
Clearly when Hackett left, so did any resemblance to a symphonic Prog band. I agree with Dean here, ATTWT just didn't feel like a Genesis album. I really do think that in 1973 - Floyd released a superbly engineered and produced album in DSOTM, but to me that again was  not prog - the tracks are all far too short and instrumentally is has nothing of the complexity of it's contemporary releases (TFTO being the obvious to compare it with). Lots of none-proggers love DSOTM, but all would LOATHE TFTO. Case closed. And lots of none-proggers started to like Genesis in 1978 - and thus that the acid-test.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zeropikinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2017 at 14:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2017 at 14:38
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It depends.

It depends on who you are, where you live, how old you are now and when you first got into Genesis (other than hearing them on the radio or listening to them on Spottythigh...)

More over it depends on how old you were when:
  1. Peter Gabriel left Genesis
  2. Steve Hackett left Genesis
  3. Phil Collins released Face Value
Because if your answer to any of those three statements is less than, say, 10 then your view of when Genesis stopped being a troo-bloo Prog band is likely to radically different to mine. Similarly if you don't live in Middle-England, or at least didn't live in the Home Counties during the 1970s then your answer is also going to be somewhat different to mine. And from my perspective as a Genesis fan from 1972 through to their appearance at the Knebworth Festival in 1978 I'm going to have to say that the Spot the Pigeon EP was the moment that I when I started to have my doubts and the hearing '...And Then There Were Three' on its release in 1978 was a heart-sinking moment for me because whatever that album was, it wasn't a "Genesis" album as far as I was concerned.


Great post.  And even though I'm a different age, different location, I come to about the same conclusion -- if I hear you right.  Are you saying that Wind and Wuthering was the last "Ale by the Fire/Chills on the back of your neck" moment for you?  It was for me, although I still enjoy some of the post-Wuthering too, if in a different context. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2017 at 14:42
P.U.-ke!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2017 at 14:45
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It depends.

It depends on who you are, where you live, how old you are now and when you first got into Genesis (other than hearing them on the radio or listening to them on Spottythigh...)

More over it depends on how old you were when:
  1. Peter Gabriel left Genesis
  2. Steve Hackett left Genesis
  3. Phil Collins released Face Value
Because if your answer to any of those three statements is less than, say, 10 then your view of when Genesis stopped being a troo-bloo Prog band is likely to radically different to mine. Similarly if you don't live in Middle-England, or at least didn't live in the Home Counties during the 1970s then your answer is also going to be somewhat different to mine. And from my perspective as a Genesis fan from 1972 through to their appearance at the Knebworth Festival in 1978 I'm going to have to say that the Spot the Pigeon EP was the moment that I when I started to have my doubts and the hearing '...And Then There Were Three' on its release in 1978 was a heart-sinking moment for me because whatever that album was, it wasn't a "Genesis" album as far as I was concerned.


Oh do come along!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mirror Image Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2017 at 16:07
When Hackett departed, I threw in the towel, because he provided Genesis with the last gasp of musical greatness despite Tony, Mike, and Phil all being amazing musicians. I just thought the music became less interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2017 at 07:49
Since Dude. Despite its poppish approach Dude mops some earlier "progressive" classic albums, such as Relayer. By simple melodies. Because they never lost they sense for melody (and harmony), thatīs why GENESIS is the greatest Prog Band of all time. Well, in all honesty, they did utmost crap as well (when they couldnīt dance). And practically all bands did crap. 
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