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Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20497
Posted: June 17 2017 at 11:02
The Dark Elf wrote:
It really all came down to practicality, marketing and the almighty dollar. Yes, Tull, ELP, Genesis and even Floyd were releasing either whole albums without a break or records with 10+ minute opuses on either side. The record industry at the time preferred the marketability of singles (and still do), and the late 70s saw the abandonment of rebel progressive FM outlets playing whole album sides and "headphones only" hours due to a consolidation of radio stations under corporate control.
Prog was literally formatted to death on radio, giving rise to "classic rock" stations playing just the hits from the big rock bands at the time. I remember clearly in Detroit (a mecca of progressive radio in the late 60s up to the mid-70s) we lost 3 important prog stations, WABX, WWWW and CJOM by the mid-to-late 70s, one disappearing altogether, another changing to Country-Western format, and another adopting a classic rock format. We used to mock the station's call letters, WLLZ, which we called "Whole Lotta Led Zeppelin". A fourth station WRIF, left prog for all intents and purposes and adopted more of a heavy metal format by 1980.
Taken in context, by 1980 there were fewer and fewer stations playing progressive rock (unless it was Yes's Roundabout, Tull's Aqualung or Genesis' sappy Follow You, Follow Me); add in MTV's reliance on new wave and pop crap (or big-haired metal bands later at night), there was nothing left of progressivity; at least, from a profitability standpoint. Hence Yes, Tull, Genesis and other prog bands simply tried to change with the times, and to be charitable, with mixed results.
Yes, the AOR format was dying off in the late seventies and this panicked record companies. Back to pop and singles! And artists like Collins and Genesis slotted right in. The rest, as they say, is history.
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Joined: December 05 2016
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Posted: June 17 2017 at 19:43
Just tonite I read an amazing article overviewing prog rock. The thing with "young white guy" as describing prog is a two-edged sword: it is indisputably true (afaik even Anderson addressed this thing of mostly lads enjoying prog) but if misspoken it'll sound like some needless rant.
By the moment they put 'young white guy' as the CAUSE for prog, and not consequence, they're being fallacious. Yes, most of prog HAS been made by young white men BUT it was not made FOR young white men specifically, instead it was just made for anyone. There was no conscious or unconscious bias as say early jazz or blues had (by blacks to blacks due to American society), instead it was a widespread BRITISH movement (At least initially) that just so happened to make a lot of people, particularly middle-class white guys, pretty intellectually pleased, whereas masses upon masses of non-middle-class white guys liked it because it sounded better than the stuff they were listening. So much so that even after punk became a mainstream thing (especially amonglaborr class afaik) prog remained alive - the labourers weren't its demographics after all.
However pretending that being white is a prerequisite or the motivation for prog-rocking is just ludacrious. It is the consequence, yes, as attested by facts, but not the cause, if one interprets well and UNBIASED. Because this article is clearly anti-prog.
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12608
Posted: June 17 2017 at 21:59
I just had a thought. Prog may never have been the most important genre. It may be even more obscure now, and not easy to find someone who knows the music. But if there was the need to bash it and mock it, and even to these days reviewer still feel that need, they must still think it's important. If you're not important, no one will hate you.
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64351
Posted: June 17 2017 at 22:08
^ I like the first part of your point, in fact prog may've been the least important genre as compared to other rock styles. Maybe that's part of why I like it.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
General prog rock criticism a collective study in perpetual non change. An inability to hear music and successfully translate results to paper or word>html.
Predictable, self indulgent, substituting stupidity for ignorance, both the tedious and tortuous non varieties. At least one can waste good time and money on music instead of purchasing the copy of someone failing to write about it.
Except the work of Jerry Lucky. The Boy's book of Prog Rock. Wonderful reference volume when the 90s mighty resurgence rolled up.
I think most prog fans secretly enjoy the outsider status that comes with these sorts of "articles". That's why we look for them. To blow off some steam and direct it at something we all can agree on is stupid. BUT many artists outside of the prog umbrella have mentioned how Hammill/Wyatt/Can/Crimson/Floyd/Gabriel/etc etc influenced their work. This ranges from post punk to electronica to contemporary pop music. Prog as a sticker failed miserably. The music though lasts and will continue to inspire future musicians and audiences.
Edited by Guldbamsen - June 18 2017 at 05:42
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16148
Posted: June 18 2017 at 08:53
Hi,
Sometimes I wish that one of us was filthy rich and would take out a full page advert on the same paper and put down the idiot, for his lack of information and what amounts to absolutely lousy journalism, and one of the worst set of historical information for the whole thing.
In the end, it will become sort of like saying that Stravinsky was an idiot, and that also happened by many "knowledgeable" critics, and many other composers, painters, artists and writers in the 20th century. The fact of the matter is, that the stuff that was "disliked" by some folks, in the end, will end up way better known than many of the bands and scenes they like to mention ... heck, I doubt the guy can even name a single disco band ... after the first one or second one, and in the end, they weren't even "disco" bands ... aka Bee Gees!
All in all, this kind of stuff is really good toilet paper that I can send to a few countries in need of such luxuries, I like to say. When journalism is no longer an appreciation for history, and instead another stupid set of comments, all because the guy was not able to get a take on that one girl ... well ... what are you and I doing to give a darn?
Btw, advertising is predicated on people "noticing" things ... so any comment on our parts means that the newspaper succeeded where we failed ... lock this thread and kill it, please! We don't need comments about losers 40 years ago, that couldn't even dance with a drink in their hands!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14720
Posted: June 19 2017 at 18:24
Just to give a glimpse into the so-called "failed" experiment, it should be recognized that 720 albums that qualify as prog rock including metal and all the subgenres are in the top 10,000 albums of all time as rated by users on Rate Your Music. That is 13.9% of the top 10,000 albums!
I think whoever wrote this article was a.... ROBOT!!! Someone pull his plug
Joined: July 01 2015
Location: Out East
Status: Offline
Points: 6777
Posted: June 19 2017 at 18:44
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Just to give a glimpse into the so-called "failed" experiment, it should be recognized that 720 albums that qualify as prog rock including metal and all the subgenres are in the top 10,000 albums of all time as rated by users on Rate Your Music. That is 13.9% of the top 10,000 albums!
I think whoever wrote this article was a.... ROBOT!!! Someone pull his plug
Pardon my math but isn't that only 7.2%? Still a surprisingly high number, though.
when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14720
Posted: June 19 2017 at 19:33
^ HEY! was that the Russians or the robots messing up my equations
I thought you said adios to this site. Hadda come back and correct me, huh? LOL
YEEEEEESSSS! 7.2% of 10,000 favorite albums of all time is quite impressive. Even within the top 100 there are 9 which is 27.555%.... oops! Caught that one. 9%!!!!!! WHOAH!!!! Pretty good for a "failed" genre
In some ways it is failed. Not enough fans show up at the festivals and not enough so called prog fans buy the older more obscure albums. They just want the latest band that sounds like Dream Theater. Really if you ask me it's the fans fault.
Joined: August 08 2016
Location: Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
Posted: June 19 2017 at 23:26
Can anyone name a subgenre that flourished continuously for more than a decade or two? If not, then questioning prog's "success" by its enduring the ravages of time is actually somewhat pointless. Even if there hadn't been a single prog album produced after 1976, the quality of the music would still stand or fall on its own merits.
Joined: July 01 2015
Location: Out East
Status: Offline
Points: 6777
Posted: June 20 2017 at 08:57
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I thought you said adios to this site. Hadda come back and correct me, huh? LOL
Eh, who was I kidding? As long as I stay out of the CAPTCHA complaint threads where the crusty old curmudgeons congregate, this forum is still a pretty cool hangout.
when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents
Joined: February 05 2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 402
Posted: June 20 2017 at 18:39
Magnum Vaeltaja wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Just to give a glimpse into the so-called "failed" experiment, it should be recognized that 720 albums that qualify as prog rock including metal and all the subgenres are in the top 10,000 albums of all time as rated by users on Rate Your Music. That is 13.9% of the top 10,000 albums!
I think whoever wrote this article was a.... ROBOT!!! Someone pull his plug
Pardon my math but isn't that only 7.2%? Still a surprisingly high number, though.
First 6 spots in RYM all-time favourites are occupied by albums that are tagged either prog-rock or art-rock.
Plus:
1) RYM makes a rather questionable distinction between prog-rock and art-rock (most of the bands labeled art-rock there are either present or in fact, eligible for inclusion to PA)
2) Jazz-rock / fusion is not included as prog-rock subgenre. Neither is space rock, raga rock, progressive folk, progressive electronic, post-rock, math-rock etc.
3) Many of the artists that could count as crossover or heavy prog here are reclassified as genres not belonging to progressive rock.
So in my estimate, the "all-time Top-score" of progressive rock spectrum is on RYM somewhere about, or a bit above 20%.
It is consistent with early RYM Top-40 statistics, where albums that could be considered prog by PA occupy somewhere between 15-22% on average each year. Plus consider that the scores there are rating number-weighted (that means the higher number of ratings might put a lower-rated album a bit above the higher-rated ones). so I think it's enough of a case for progressive music.
Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6747
Posted: June 20 2017 at 23:39
How many 70 year old punk rockers can you name who are still recording and touring?
These journalists really tick me off....I guess they started to pile on with TFTO, more than any other work.
I would posit that prog-rock is nowhere near finished in its evolution. However, we could use some more inventiveness...I'd love to see many more women in prog as lead vocalists and instrumentalists.
This is sublime...alas, Christina Booth is battling breast cancer.
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Prog Rock: A Noble, But Failed, Experiment
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Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
