Repetition and Development in Prog |
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Mr. Mustard
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 06 2012 Location: Maine, USA Status: Offline Points: 207 |
Topic: Repetition and Development in Prog Posted: June 23 2017 at 21:19 |
Thematic development and repetition is, in my opinion, one of the key factors that makes prog so interesting and unique from many other genres. A lot of groups do it well, but a few make extremely good use of this technique. Jethro Tull’s Thick As a Brick is the prime example of this. I believe they have six or seven themes that they play around with and repeat throughout the song. The opening riff is the obvious example, but I also really like the 5/4 part that begins at 3:05. It’s repeated near the beginning of part two but is now in 6/8 and a bit faster. It gets repeated once again at the end of part two, this time in alternating bars of 7/8 and 9/8.
Firth of fifth is another great example of this. The iconic piano intro is repeated midway through the song, this time on synth and with the backing instruments to give off a more climactic feel. The haunting flute melody at 3:32 is also developed further later in the song, being played equally ominously by Hackett. The middle section of Starless makes great use of repetition to build tension. The opening theme is also repeated at the end to give a bookending cohesiveness to the song. Van der graaf generator shows how much you can accomplish with a simple theme by utilizing repetition and development. Modern prog music also does this to a similar extent. This song from echolyn is one of my favorite examples. The opening piano bit is repeated a few times throughout the first four minutes and reappears again in the climax played much faster. Neal Morse especially abuses this, with many of his songs (and albums in general) having themes which repeat constantly throughout. The firth of fifth-esque opening and following melody of seeds of gold is repeated in a myriad of different ways. Are there any other songs which utilize these methods of repetition and development? This is one of my favorite facets of prog so i’m always looking for songs which do this, no matter how subtle.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 64350 |
Posted: June 23 2017 at 21:35 |
Good topic. Thematic variation & development were the lifeblood of much prog, and you can hear it frequently if you listen carefully. I think of Yes; Close to the Edge, TfTO, etc. Composition in general has always used development but classical and Prog did it best and made the most of it. Neat how a simple phrase, when unpacked, altered and fleshed-out, can become a major piece of work.
In a way, pop songcraft tends away from progression which may be why it's more digestible and consequently more successful (popular). |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Thatfabulousalien
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 27 2016 Location: Aussie/NZ Status: Offline Points: 1409 |
Posted: June 23 2017 at 21:39 |
Just like classical music itself, it depends on the era, background and aim of the artist/composer/band.
An avantprog band like Henry Cow is obviously going to approach form and development much different to Yes or Genesis. But it is an overall aspect that absolutely is more vibrant and widespread in prog, compared to other subgenres of rock/metal. As a composer/musician myself personally, I can't stay on one thing for too long in my own work, variation is a natural tool for me
Edited by Thatfabulousalien - June 23 2017 at 21:40 |
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DDPascalDD
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 06 2015 Location: The Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 856 |
Posted: June 24 2017 at 01:54 |
My favourite example of thematic repetition and development is from Gentle Giant - Pantagruel's Nativity. The first few notes is the theme, which is developed in the vocals of the verses ("How can I laugh or cry?" and variations on that building beautifully to a great contra theme), at 1:50 the theme is played by the guitar, but in a very different way, and another part of the intro is repeated. Directly after the "heavier part" with the counterpoint vocals the theme is again played, developed, the saxes play two phrases, one is the theme (rearranged a little more jazzy) and then a variation, this is repeated while the bass plays a variation on the "heavy part". They go a bit more in the background to make room for the solo, when the guitar takes over the solo the theme is building, to the repetition of the "heavy part". Then at 5:18 the theme again reoccurs now with trumpet and the bass plays a variation on the other part of the intro, in this variation it builds very powerfully to a climax which emohasizes the chromatism used in the song, leading to the last verse, recapulating "How can I laugh or cry?", but now sung with two voices. The piece concludes with a slight variation on the contra theme.
But the most beautiful thing is, that besides the complexity of the developing themes, it all flows very natural, and has a lot of emotion and magic carried to the listener. The complexity doesn't keep it from feeling quite romantic in style, nothing feels forced "because it has to be smart". Maybe the best piece of music there is?
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 64350 |
Posted: June 24 2017 at 02:46 |
^ Giant's a great example ~
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Magnum Vaeltaja
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 01 2015 Location: Out East Status: Offline Points: 6777 |
Posted: June 24 2017 at 08:33 |
Agreed; great topic!
Yep, they're probably the first band that comes to my mind for developing and recapitulating themes. The Remembering, in particular, strikes me as a song that does this masterfully. Gryphon's instrumental epic (Ein Klein) Heldenleben seems to take a cue from Yes not just in terms of style, but also in how well it repeats and develops a very simple melodic theme. And, as Pascal mentioned, Gentle Giant was great at this, too. Knots is one of the clearest examples that comes to mind. Since you're also looking for subtle examples, too, I think you'd appreciate how King Crimson's Moonchild uses the extended instrumental section to revisit the images and motifs presented in the lyrics, as explained in this excellent review. The use of repetition and build-ups is another one of my favourite compositional techniques in prog. Yes' Starship Trooper, the spacey section of Caravan's L'Auberge Du Sanglier et al., the middle section of King Crimson's Easy Money, King Crimson's The Talking Drum, King Crimson's The Devil's Triangle (King Crimson had a lot of these), etc. And it doesn't always have to be chaotic, either; Harmonium's Depuis l'Automne has some pretty powerful build-ups while staying quite melodic. For modern prog examples, this seems to be one of the underlying tenets of a lot of post-rock, like Godspeed You! Black Emperor's album Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven or We Lost The Sea's Departure Songs. |
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 12369 |
Posted: June 24 2017 at 10:07 |
You mentioned Thick As A Brick, but did not mentioned A Passion Play, in which the main theme "There Was A Rush..." is repeated a few times, giving some coherence to the many different melodies/themes of the piece.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: June 24 2017 at 15:28 |
The Argent instrumental The Coming of Kohoutek is a good example of how a 10 minute piece based almost entirely on a single theme by Liszt (Totentanz - which in turn is based on Gregorian plainchant Dies Irae) never becomes verbatim repetitive, boring or predictable. Check out the live version from 1974's Encore:
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 64350 |
Posted: June 24 2017 at 18:32 |
^ Nice cut (reminds me a bit of ELP's Mussorgsky), and yeah the variations on just four notes ~ that is, four primary notes patterned in seven tones with an additional ten tones as a paired phrase ~ shows both Liszt's own melodic variations as well as how prog bands in particular could milk the living sh*t out of a phrase. In the best way of course.
Edited by Atavachron - June 24 2017 at 19:37 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: June 18 2009 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 12608 |
Posted: June 24 2017 at 21:30 |
You mentioned Near Morse. I do know litte of him outside of Transatlantic, but I do feel he (even in Transatlantic) abuses the "technique". However, I think it is wonderfully used on "The Whirlwind", my favourite Transatlantic album by far, and one of my very favourites from that decade. I think mostly because of the way they used most of their themes in the overture section and then developed them throughout the rest of the album (usually I don't like how those overture things work on other albums, but on this one I really loved it). Another great example of this for me would be Edisons Children's "The Final Breath Before November" (also a wonderful album for me).
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maryes
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 16 2009 Location: rio de janeiro Status: Offline Points: 990 |
Posted: June 25 2017 at 11:33 |
I think which this technique of repetition and development be clearly linked to classical music "heritage": and I can cite Bach's organ Fugues, Beethoven 5 Symphony (where the main theme reappear in all 4 movements) . This feature allows to composers "thicken", "decorate" and add new "colored" to their compositions !!!
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Mr. Mustard
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 06 2012 Location: Maine, USA Status: Offline Points: 207 |
Posted: June 25 2017 at 21:30 |
Yeah Transatlantic does it a lot too, especially Bridge Across Forever. The "Motherless Children" melody that first appears in the beginning of Duel With the Devil is repeated throughout, and makes an especially stunning return near the end with the choir. On top of that, all the songs have a theme in common (the Motherless Children section appears again near the end of Suite Charlotte Pike, sung by Roine this time. Man I could analyze that whole album it's so great.
I don't know if anyone has heard Neal's newest album, but that one should be a textbook example of the technique. For those with two hours to spare I would suggest this video where Mike Portnoy listens to and analyzes the entire album. Just amazing the thought Neal and the band put into this one.
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Mr. Mustard
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 06 2012 Location: Maine, USA Status: Offline Points: 207 |
Posted: June 25 2017 at 21:45 |
Great example. I know the In a Glass House album does this a lot, but I've never heard this album. I'll have to check it out!
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chopper
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 19942 |
Posted: June 25 2017 at 22:37 |
Yes, I was going to say that one. Great example of repetition building up layers into a climax.
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 6747 |
Posted: June 25 2017 at 22:55 |
Excellent post, thank you! Some of my favorite use of musical movements are in TFTO. They resurrect themes throughout, building them up and amplifying them. A true prog masterpiece. p.s. I am NOT a robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
Edited by cstack3 - June 25 2017 at 22:57 |
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Luqueasaur
Forum Newbie Joined: December 05 2016 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 32 |
Posted: June 27 2017 at 10:56 |
What a keen observation! Yes, I do find it too a really creative and enjoyable feature. It has much to do with bringing what's familiar to you in a different fashion, and that is psychologically pleasing.
An example I know is The Dance of Eternity on Metropolis Pt. 2, which is pretty much an AMAZING rebuild of Metropolis Pt. 1. It is really pleasing to remember one of I&W's best songs on such a deconstructed but still recognizable fashion. And go to hell this damned captcha!
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer Joined: March 08 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2459 |
Posted: June 29 2017 at 03:12 |
The other day I listened to TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS for the first times in years, and it struck me how much the band played sophisticated games with various musical themes, especially throughout sides 1, 2 and 4. (I think I noticed this more because I've known the album for more than 40 years and I returned to it with open ears, so to speak.) This really increased my admiration for the band, because in their case musical themes are always connected with specific EMOTIONS.
Edited by fuxi - June 29 2017 at 03:13 |
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unclemeat69
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 14 2007 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 350 |
Posted: June 30 2017 at 13:39 |
In Raconteur Troubadour by Gentle Giant the same melody (vocal melody of the verses) appears throughout the song in many incarnations (the whole mid-section is basically about playing with that melody).
In The Truth Will Set You Free by The Flower Kings the opening motif reappears throughout the song in lost of places and variations). Some other bits reappear in other songs on the album. |
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