Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Emerson, Lake & Palmer
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Emerson, Lake & Palmer

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 10>
Author
Message
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Emerson, Lake & Palmer
    Posted: July 30 2017 at 13:45
This is my very first topic started on here lol(trying to get my post count up a bit so I can start making polls and stuff like that). Tongue

Anyway, what are your thoughts about this group? Favorite album, how did you first get into them, etc. For me, in the early 80's I didn't even know 'prog' existed(and only really knew the music I heard by chance on the radio). Then I was at a friend's house and he had the self-titled Asia album(it was brand new). We listened to it and I loved it! So I went straight away and got the cassette tape for myself(my friend had the actual LP). Then when Alpha came out I immediately went and got that. Well anyway, being an aspiring drummer myself in those days, I thought Carl Palmer was really great(he is) and talked about him and found out that he had been in another really popular group before that called ELP(Emerson, Lake & Palmer). So then I rushed right out to get something by them, and ended up getting Brain Salad Surgery. Well I didn't like it! So it sat for a while until I eventually bought their self-titled debut(and liked that one). So then eventually I started liking BSS too and very soon even more than the debut. Well now I have all their albums except Love Beach and the ones after that. I still think BSS is the best one. But I love Trilogy a lot too. And Tarkus is awesome except a bit uneven imo toward the end. But those first four albums are all still really good. And ELP is definitely in my top 3 of all time prog bands(with Yes and Genesis).


P.S. Remember to copy your reply before sending! Just in case, you know what, gets you! 
Back to Top
Manuel View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2121
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:14
I've always liked ELP, but I though BSS was not as impressive as the albums before it. I like Tarkus and Trilogy the best, with Pictures and the self titled following very close. A great band, quite innovative back then, who unfortunately suffered artistically and financially due to mismanagement and bad PR.
Back to Top
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:25
Oh that sucks. Oh well, at least we always have those first four great albums(and Pictures).. And yeah Tarkus and Trilogy, can't argue with that at all, both fantastic albums. 
Back to Top
Barbu View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Collusion Ave
Status: Offline
Points: 22029
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:33
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

I prefer Triumvirat.
and those with no homes to go to, please dig yourself holes
Back to Top
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:45
Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

I prefer Triumvirat.

I'm sure that's something I should know, but.. no clue. 
Back to Top
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:56
Ok, I did some research and I think I found it? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumvirate_(album)


Interesting, I'll have to check that out.. Doubt I'll like it as much as ELP but who knows. 
Back to Top
Barbu View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Collusion Ave
Status: Offline
Points: 22029
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 15:06
Triumvirat is a German 70s prog band heavily influenced by ELP. And they're great, maman. You should check 'Illusions on a Double Dimple', you'll surely appreciate.

Presdougvirat is the guardian of the Trium Galaxy.


As for ELP...the early to mid 70s albums are essential afaic.

Edited by Barbu - July 30 2017 at 15:09
and those with no homes to go to, please dig yourself holes
Back to Top
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 15:13
That sound like some good @#%#$. Definitely have to check into that! 

And yeah, early ELP totally essential as far as prog goes. I agree. 
Back to Top
AZF View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 17 2012
Location: Wirral
Status: Offline
Points: 577
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AZF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 15:22
In the 90's after getting into Pink Floyd, I thought about other bands. But the fact ELP were always having the piss taken out of them but me off. Eventually I learned not to worry about what other people thought and dived into the excellent "The Atlantic Years" compilation.
Didn't see what all the hate was about as it was pretty great.
I think "Tarkus" is still my favourite piece.
Back to Top
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 15:27
Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

In the 90's after getting into Pink Floyd, I thought about other bands. But the fact ELP were always having the piss taken out of them but me off. Eventually I learned not to worry about what other people thought and dived into the excellent "The Atlantic Years" compilation.
Didn't see what all the hate was about as it was pretty great.
I think "Tarkus" is still my favourite piece.

Yeah Tarkus is an interesting album. I don't like it quite as much as Trilogy(at the moment), but it is really good for sure.   

Edit: Oh I think you mean the first half.. Yeah, that is awesome. 


Edited by YESESIS - July 30 2017 at 15:30
Back to Top
Logan View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Forum Moderator

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Utopia
Status: Offline
Points: 14625
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 15:33
Regarding the Triumvirat comment, we've kind of got our little memes here that act as internal jokes. For instance, all post '89 music sucks, which refers to an ex-poster. We're a bit of an eccentric group with different obsessions. I guess I was thought of around here as the Art Zoyd fanatic.

As for ELP, I like the debut the most. The first album I got was Trilogy, and it was one of the first album I got when I got back into Prog, or into Prog in a big way back near the turn of the millennium.   I was looking for particular music that I remembered hearing when I was younger but didn't know what it was (that was Hairless Heart by Genesis). I found a sample on amazon, I think. In the meantime I also found music by ELP off Trilogy that I remembered. I must have heard the album Trilogy when I was a kid, because when I got the album I recognized the whole thing.

Anyway, partially because of nostalgia, I really loved ELP back then. I stopped listening to ELP quite some years ago as my music interest shifted, but I do enjoy listening to them now and again. FOr me ELP often is just "too much" to handle. If you can't stand the heat, don't jump in the Lake (not that Greg was the problem).

ELP is important from a Prog 101 perspective for sure. The band has become less fashionable in Prog circles as I think some think it took excess to too much of an extreme (too bombastic), but I think most would find music by ELP that would appeal. Stuff like "Oh Lucky Man: of course remains popular amongst classic rock fans.
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
Back to Top
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 15:49
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Regarding the Triumvirat comment, we've kind of got our little memes here that act as internal jokes. For instance, all post '89 music sucks, which refers to an ex-poster. We're a bit of an eccentric group with different obsessions. I guess I was thought of around here as the Art Zoyd fanatic.

As for ELP, I like the debut the most. The first album I got was Trilogy, and it was one of the first album I got when I got back into Prog, or into Prog in a big way back near the turn of the millennium.   I was looking for particular music that I remembered hearing when I was younger but didn't know what it was (that was Hairless Heart by Genesis). I found a sample on amazon, I think. In the meantime I also found music by ELP off Trilogy that I remembered. I must have heard the album Trilogy when I was a kid, because when I got the album I recognized the whole thing.

Anyway, partially because of nostalgia, I really loved ELP back then. I stopped listening to ELP quite some years ago as my music interest shifted, but I do enjoy listening to them now and again. FOr me ELP often is just "too much" to handle. If you can't stand the heat, don't jump in the Lake (not that Greg was the problem).

ELP is important from a Prog 101 perspective for sure. The band has become less fashionable in Prog circles as I think some think it took excess to too much of an extreme (too bombastic), but I think most would find music by ELP that would appeal. Stuff like "Oh Lucky Man: of course remains popular amongst classic rock fans.

Yeah I still hear that one on classic rock radio, as well as some karn evil. I kind of grow in and out of ELP too, but they are important enough to me that I thought they should be my first topic on here. Thanks for sharing. 

Edit: Yeah the first album is kind of special to me too, but I like the three after it better(just more my style). I kind of alternate between Trilogy and BSS as my favorite.  


Edited by YESESIS - July 30 2017 at 15:57
Back to Top
Logan View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Forum Moderator

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Utopia
Status: Offline
Points: 14625
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:00
Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Regarding the Triumvirat comment, we've kind of got our little memes here that act as internal jokes. For instance, all post '89 music sucks, which refers to an ex-poster. We're a bit of an eccentric group with different obsessions. I guess I was thought of around here as the Art Zoyd fanatic.

As for ELP, I like the debut the most. The first album I got was Trilogy, and it was one of the first album I got when I got back into Prog, or into Prog in a big way back near the turn of the millennium.   I was looking for particular music that I remembered hearing when I was younger but didn't know what it was (that was Hairless Heart by Genesis). I found a sample on amazon, I think. In the meantime I also found music by ELP off Trilogy that I remembered. I must have heard the album Trilogy when I was a kid, because when I got the album I recognized the whole thing.

Anyway, partially because of nostalgia, I really loved ELP back then. I stopped listening to ELP quite some years ago as my music interest shifted, but I do enjoy listening to them now and again. FOr me ELP often is just "too much" to handle. If you can't stand the heat, don't jump in the Lake (not that Greg was the problem).

ELP is important from a Prog 101 perspective for sure. The band has become less fashionable in Prog circles as I think some think it took excess to too much of an extreme (too bombastic), but I think most would find music by ELP that would appeal. Stuff like "Oh Lucky Man: of course remains popular amongst classic rock fans.


Yeah I still hear that one on classic rock radio, as well as some karn evil. I kind of grow in and out of ELP too, but they are important enough to me that I thought they should be my first topic on here. Thanks for sharing.†

Edit: Yeah the first album is kind of special to me too, but I like the three after it better(just more my style).†



I also hear Karn Evil and From the Beginning. Thanks. Trilogy was the most important to me album of theirs, and Pictures, but these days it's the debut.   And I also mentioned ELP in my first topic here:

"Hello, I'm a happily married man with one child looking to meet open-minded women with large collections of classic prog albums and mp3s to be my Sheherezade. I enjoy moonlit walks on the beach while listening to Gentle Giant on my mp3 player and candlelight dinners while listening to classic Genesis, Pink Floyd, Camel, King Crimson, and ELP. If you're a renaissance woman with a good stereo system, say Yes to me. I'd love to check out your equipment."
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
Back to Top
fredyair View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: October 18 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote fredyair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:03
ELP made probably the best symphonic prog music ever, but by the mid '70s they have already burned, contract deals and/or management made them go for too long. Their '90s album Black Moon kind of redeemed the group. Ultimately Emerson health problems were too much to overcome and ended costing him his life. Going back to the first albums, all the way to Works in my opinion, the lyrical and musical content was beyond anybody else and talk about musicianship! Emerson was the most gifted keyboard player of his generation, Palmer the best or at least top 5 drummer and Lake the best vocalist of the crop. So even though most people consider Yes and Genesis the best groups of the founding generation in my consideration ELP is the unmistakable number one.
Long live Progresive music!
Back to Top
Logan View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Forum Moderator

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Utopia
Status: Offline
Points: 14625
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:07
Originally posted by fredyair fredyair wrote:

ELP made probably the best symphonic prog music ever, but by the mid '70s they have already burned, contract deals and/or management made them go for too long. Their '90s album Black Moon kind of redeemed the group. Ultimately Emerson health problems were too much to overcome and ended costing him his life. Going back to the first albums, all the way to Works in my opinion, the lyrical and musical content was beyond anybody else and talk about musicianship! Emerson was the most gifted keyboard player of his generation, Palmer the best or at least top 5 drummer and Lake the best vocalist of the crop. So even though most people consider Yes and Genesis the best groups of the founding generation in my consideration ELP is the unmistakable number one.


Like 'em or leave 'em, I would say that ELP is THE quintessential Prog band. That said, at least in hardcore Prog circles, I think King Crimson tends to get the laurels as the King of Prog.

Edited by Logan - July 30 2017 at 16:08
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
Back to Top
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:29
Originally posted by fredyair fredyair wrote:

ELP made probably the best symphonic prog music ever, but by the mid '70s they have already burned, contract deals and/or management made them go for too long. Their '90s album Black Moon kind of redeemed the group. Ultimately Emerson health problems were too much to overcome and ended costing him his life. Going back to the first albums, all the way to Works in my opinion, the lyrical and musical content was beyond anybody else and talk about musicianship! Emerson was the most gifted keyboard player of his generation, Palmer the best or at least top 5 drummer and Lake the best vocalist of the crop. So even though most people consider Yes and Genesis the best groups of the founding generation in my consideration ELP is the unmistakable number one.

I like Works but not as much as those first four. I kind of think of Yes as the unmistakable number one, but ELP is certainly right there and oh yeah Emerson is such a wizard on those keyboards! Gotta love it.

Oh is Black Moon any good? I've never heard that one..
Back to Top
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:34
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by fredyair fredyair wrote:

ELP made probably the best symphonic prog music ever, but by the mid '70s they have already burned, contract deals and/or management made them go for too long. Their '90s album Black Moon kind of redeemed the group. Ultimately Emerson health problems were too much to overcome and ended costing him his life. Going back to the first albums, all the way to Works in my opinion, the lyrical and musical content was beyond anybody else and talk about musicianship! Emerson was the most gifted keyboard player of his generation, Palmer the best or at least top 5 drummer and Lake the best vocalist of the crop. So even though most people consider Yes and Genesis the best groups of the founding generation in my consideration ELP is the unmistakable number one.


Like 'em or leave 'em, I would say that ELP is THE quintessential Prog band. That said, at least in hardcore Prog circles, I think King Crimson tends to get the laurels as the King of Prog.

Oh no.. that means I guess I have to get into King Crimson now to call myself a real prog fan. I'm very familiar with their first album, "In The Court.." with my man Greg. But never cared about them after that. 

Oh boy.. King Crimson here I come lol
Back to Top
Logan View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Forum Moderator

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Utopia
Status: Offline
Points: 14625
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:48
Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by fredyair fredyair wrote:

ELP made probably the best symphonic prog music ever, but by the mid '70s they have already burned, contract deals and/or management made them go for too long. Their '90s album Black Moon kind of redeemed the group. Ultimately Emerson health problems were too much to overcome and ended costing him his life. Going back to the first albums, all the way to Works in my opinion, the lyrical and musical content was beyond anybody else and talk about musicianship! Emerson was the most gifted keyboard player of his generation, Palmer the best or at least top 5 drummer and Lake the best vocalist of the crop. So even though most people consider Yes and Genesis the best groups of the founding generation in my consideration ELP is the unmistakable number one.


Like 'em or leave 'em, I would say that ELP is THE quintessential Prog band. That said, at least in hardcore Prog circles, I think King Crimson tends to get the laurels as the King of Prog.


Oh no.. that means I guess I have to get into King Crimson now to call myself a real prog fan. I'm very familiar with their first album, "In The Court.." with my man Greg. But never cared about them after that.†

Oh boy.. King Crimson here I come lol



I'm procrastiposting [sic] , whereas I should be working.   

I really like the follow-up, In the Wake of Poseidon, which also features Greg Lake (don't know if you have heard it, but it is a similar album to the debut). Personally, Lizard is my favourite, and if by your username I'm right to guess that you like Yes, and if you haven't heard Lizard, this is worth listening to for Jon Anderson's vocals:



Great thing about Prog is there's always more to explore, but that can be a double-edged sword, and the wallet sure can suffer.



Edited by Logan - July 30 2017 at 16:49
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
Back to Top
YESESIS View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2017
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 17:00
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'm procrastiposting [sic] , whereas I should be working.   

I really like the follow-up, In the Wake of Poseidon, which also features Greg Lake (don't know if you have heard it, but it is a similar album to the debut). Personally, Lizard is my favourite, and if by your username I'm right to guess that you like Yes, and if you haven't heard Lizard, this is worth listening to for Jon Anderson's vocals:



Great thing about Prog is there's always more to explore, but that can be a double-edged sword, and the wallet sure can suffer.


I need to run to the store to get something for my freakin dinner here lol. But thanks so much for posting this! I'll check it out when I get back. And you're right, my username is supposed to be a "mashup" of Yes and Genesis. Yes is my favorite prog band. I love all their albums pretty much, but imo everything from "The Yes Album" through "Going for the One" just can't be beat. I love Genesis a lot too(I could actually talk about them all night lol). But gotta run. Be back later. 
Back to Top
Dellinger View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 7429
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 21:02
Yes ELP is great, and have done a lot of wonderful songs... yet, somehow, their albums never worked for me as a whole. They would have great stuff, but also things I don't really like so much. It's mostly those sort of "joke" songs that don't work for me, or when they go into their "carnival music" mode (or however other people may describe them). Also, usually I love live versions from the bands, but somehow ELP didn't really do it for me... I guess I just don't like the way Emmerson jams. However, my favourite from ELP may not be the most logical choice for other people, "Pictures at an Exhibition". Also, Black Moon was mentioned, and yes, I think that one is a good album, though it sounds completley different from their 70's stuff... it sounds more 90's, I guess, and it's mostly more poppy than proggy, but in general I found it all pleasing to hear, even if there isn't much that stands out. As for the quintessential rock band... I'm mostly inclined to give the title to Yes, specially if the Fragile / CttE line-up is considered, but yeah, ELP is just about as worthy of the title too.

As for King Crimson, you really can't call yourself a prog fan without knowing them (you may not like them, that you will have to discover by yourself, but you must know them). And yeah, if you like their debut and Greg's singing on it, you must get Poseidon too (even though I consider Poseidon to be mostly an inferior copy of the debut, but it's still got some great Greg Lake singing). And if you are a Yes fan, you must listen to Lizard, as you were already recommended, but that piece that was shared for you to listen is the only part were Anderson sings on that album (the main singer for the album is, as far as I'm concerned, not very good). From them you must also get "Lark's Tongues in Aspic" and "Red". Plus some live albums (unlike ELP, I do love King Crimson live, and there are many songs that are really better on their live versions). I personally would recommend "Collectable King Crimson Vol 1".

And since you were already recommended another prog band given their similarity to ELP (Triumviran, which I'm afraid I have not heard), I may go on and recommend another one. They are perhaps not really that similar (at least not on line-up), but somehow often enough I find some similarities on the music they play, being the italians "Banco del Muttuo Soccorso"... they have some of those traits I don't really enjoy from ELP... but somehow make them sound much better to my ears and love them for that (oh yeah, and if you check them out, be prepared to listen to one of the very best and most unique singers in prog, second to no other, not even Greg Lake or Jon Anderson, or whichever other singer you may worship).
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 10>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.375 seconds.