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cstack3 View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 04 2017 at 14:49
https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/534174/

This mess starts: 

We are the most uncool people in Miami.” So begins, promisingly enough, David Weigel’s The Show That Never Ends: The Rise and Fall of Prog Rock. Weigel, along with 3,000 fellow Yes-heads, Rush-oids, Tull freaks, and votaries of King Crimson—cultural underdogs all, twitching and grimacing with revenge-of-the-nerds excitement—is at the port of Miami, about to embark on a five-day progressive-rock-themed cruise: a floating orgy of some of the most despised music ever produced by long-haired white men.




Edited by cstack3 - August 04 2017 at 14:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2017 at 15:06
You call it a mess, I call it an entertaining article.   I read the Atlantic a lot, but mostly for political issues, and I like James Parker's style even when I disagree with the content. I think he's a fine article writer and has a good command of the craft of writing. Perhaps I'll try to say something more substantive that actually contributes to a dynamic discussion at a later date.

As for the novel he's reviewing by David Weigel, I posted a link to another review of it before, but it seems like an uninteresting read -- a too simplistic, boring list-making work seemingly intended for people who know little about the music scene lacking in incite and deep analysis.

Thanks for sharing.


Edited by Logan - August 04 2017 at 17:43
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2017 at 21:38
I like prog because I like it, and I don't need any music critic to tell me if it's good or not. That's the bottom line. I'll spend my money in music I'll enjoy, not on a group of artists whose music doesn't mean anything to me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2017 at 22:37
Is this obsession with the whiteness or not of music (among other endeavours) a very American thing, a way of atoning for slavery or something?  Because so f**king what if the music is white? I am Indian and I like the white music and the black as well as, well, the good ol' brown stuff. So what if prog did not conform to American norms of rock?  It was not, in essence, American music anyway, with notable exceptions like Zappa. By the by, how does Van Halen appropriating the blues and therefore sounding black enough make their misogyny any more bearable?  Don't get me wrong, I love Van Halen, but it is very easy to pick apart any music if you are hell bent on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2017 at 22:40
Calling it "the whitest music ever" doesn't say anything about the music. Black people were never forbidden to play prog rock. Most of them aren't interested in it because prog is a bit complicated and it doesn't reflect who they are. There aren't that many black people in rock music in general. They identify more with rap and hip-hop, when it comes to music that is critical of the world. I've never met a black person who had parents who listened to prog rock and rarely even rock. But it is pretty common to meet parents who listened to rap, hip-hop, funk, etc.

By the way.. where's the article calling rap the "blackest music ever"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 01:58
Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

Calling it "the whitest music ever" doesn't say anything about the music. Black people were never forbidden to play prog rock. Most of them aren't interested in it because prog is a bit complicated and it doesn't reflect who they are. There aren't that many black people in rock music in general. They identify more with rap and hip-hop, when it comes to music that is critical of the world. I've never met a black person who had parents who listened to prog rock and rarely even rock. But it is pretty common to meet parents who listened to rap, hip-hop, funk, etc.

By the way.. where's the article calling rap the "blackest music ever"?

Well said ! I think Body Count's amazing There Goes The Neighbourhood pretty sums up black people's attitude towards rock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ6hkkMle1Q

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 02:36
Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

Calling it "the whitest music ever" doesn't say anything about the music. Black people were never forbidden to play prog rock. Most of them aren't interested in it because prog is a bit complicated and it doesn't reflect who they are. There aren't that many black people in rock music in general. They identify more with rap and hip-hop, when it comes to music that is critical of the world. I've never met a black person who had parents who listened to prog rock and rarely even rock. But it is pretty common to meet parents who listened to rap, hip-hop, funk, etc.

By the way.. where's the article calling rap the "blackest music ever"?


The author is clearly implying that he considers much Progressive Rock played by white musicians to be stiff, lacking in soul or groove, bereft of cojones, too cerebral and constitutes a natural predator to 'funk' and I suspect that you knew that full well.
In most cases I certainly don't share that view but I know many fans of black music who feel similarly to both Parker and Weigel.
We've all been subject to the passive racism of white music journalists for what seems like forever and their dog-eared sermon always boils down to this: You are free to dislike any type of music whatsoever if it just doesn't stir or move you in any shape or form UNLESS that music happens to be soul, funk, reggae, Rap, Hip Hop etc as it must then be routinely inferred that you don't like this music because of a deficiency in your aesthetic lineage a.k.a. you're too white. I'm the first to admit that this is a tricky idea to articulate without running the risk of causing offence, so is that what you mean by a bit complicated?Stern Smile

The sister article you crave for re 'blackest music ever' is unlikely to appear anytime soon. This is because 'white' as a pejorative term enjoys a rarefied status relative to its counterpart: magic, mass, mail, balled, hole, arts, guard, listed, mariah, mark, book, market, sheep, Friday, pot calling the kettle (the list goes on).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghost_of_morphy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 03:48
40 years ago prog appealed to people of all races.  Prog did not exclude races; other races abandoned prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Syrinx09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 03:56
if you look at it, it's a little bit of the truth. but if you consider jazz, r&b and funk you will see that so called white folk are minority there. Everybody can do great music, but affection can be different.


edit: one more thing, back in the day prog was the toy of rich men [his own idea] so there can be some social-cultural difference. See how people with classic jazz starts went progressive with fusion etc. after that.


Edited by Syrinx09 - August 05 2017 at 03:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 04:03
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

40 years ago prog appealed to people of all races.  Prog did not exclude races; other races abandoned prog.


I really don't believe you even believe that Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 05:54
Prog Music - the whitest music, ever!

yeah that's the reason why Pink Floyd is not 'prog' music......... it's the pinkest music, ever! hahaha...lol
haha it's pretty funny how 'prog' has become such a meaningless and useless and vague definition these days...........

The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 07:32
Funny.  I'm reading a book where the author claimed that 80s Hair Metal is the whitest music ever made.

I guess the geniuses of academia will need to commission a study to solve this vexing question. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 07:57
He forgot the two main forms of white person type music. Country and Western.

Anyway Puff Daddy and Jimmy Page "doing" Kashmir. Or K. West taking 21st CSM as a sample. Sort of like Run DMC doing Walk This Way.

Black influence in prog is primarily in Jazz fusion. Unless Stanley Clarke and George Duke and FZ's guys are not counting at all...

Obviously the writer was trying to be provocative: trouble is he's 40 years out of date and wrong.

Next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 10:19
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:


The author is clearly implying that he considers much Progressive Rock played by white musicians to be stiff, lacking in soul or groove, bereft of cojones, too cerebral and constitutes a natural predator to 'funk' and I suspect that you knew that full well.
In most cases I certainly don't share that view but I know many fans of black music who feel similarly to both Parker and Weigel.
We've all been subject to the passive racism of white music journalists for what seems like forever and their dog-eared sermon always boils down to this: You are free to dislike any type of music whatsoever if it just doesn't stir or move you in any shape or form UNLESS that music happens to be soul, funk, reggae, Rap, Hip Hop etc as it must then be routinely inferred that you don't like this music because of a deficiency in your aesthetic lineage a.k.a. you're too white. I'm the first to admit that this is a tricky idea to articulate without running the risk of causing offence, so is that what you mean by a bit complicated?Stern Smile

The sister article you crave for re 'blackest music ever' is unlikely to appear anytime soon. This is because 'white' as a pejorative term enjoys a rarefied status relative to its counterpart: magic, mass, mail, balled, hole, arts, guard, listed, mariah, mark, book, market, sheep, Friday, pot calling the kettle (the list goes on).
What I mean by complicated is that usually it requires musical interest to enjoy prog. People usually listen to what's available or what's played everywhere. Pop, mainstream rock, rap, hip-hop, electronic, etc. Prog doesn't play anywhere nor is it advertised. And most people don't enjoy prog, so if you want to fit in, you will probably have a hard time finding someone who also enjoys prog.

Furthermore, the music your parents listen to or the music that you hear in your environment will influence your tastes. Like I said, it is very unlikely that prog will be played in a black family environment or neighbourhood. They would probably consider you a sissy for liking prog. The rule nowadays is to be "cool" and kids are exposed to that very early and that's what they learn. And prog is very far from cool. Most people will usually follow the music trends and the mainstream if they want to fit in.

I don't think it is racist to state that prog isn't appreciated by most black people.


Edited by Junges - August 05 2017 at 10:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HemispheresOfXanadu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 10:32
Hendrix
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 10:42
Hendrix indeed...I was going to mention him also....but he had plenty of blues,  funk ,and r & b mixed into his overall approach to rock. And that's only one famous name....
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnBearbossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 11:50
Obviously the guy has an axe to grind.  His agenda couldn't be more obvious in an age where the majority of people in the world simply ignore the existence of past artistic movements about which they care little.  As opposed to railing against them. Plus, he admits he can't be bothered to listen to a representative sample.

As to the white-or-not, it's maybe less disingenuous than white British lads playing the blues. Not that I have a problem with that, as it's exactly how Jethro Tull first made their name  known.



Edited by CapnBearbossa - August 05 2017 at 11:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 12:04
Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

Prog doesn't play anywhere nor is it advertised

Now 'prog' is most of the music that doesn't play anywhere nor is advertised........ 
Funny, never heard that definition for prog....

Anyway .. if your observations are true, no matter what the heck is in fact 'prog music', it isn't appreciated not only by most black people, as you just pointed out, but also by most North, Central and South American white people.......



Edited by Tillerman88 - August 05 2017 at 12:04
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 12:14
Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

Calling it "the whitest music ever" doesn't say anything about the music. Black people were never forbidden to play prog rock. Most of them aren't interested in it because prog is a bit complicated and it doesn't reflect who they are. There aren't that many black people in rock music in general. They identify more with rap and hip-hop, when it comes to music that is critical of the world. I've never met a black person who had parents who listened to prog rock and rarely even rock. But it is pretty common to meet parents who listened to rap, hip-hop, funk, etc.

By the way.. where's the article calling rap the "blackest music ever"?

I think Stanley Clarke would take generous exception to this guy's sentiments....if we include jazz-rock fusion into prog (where it belongs), there is a universe of amazing players who are non-white. 

Do you like prog rock, the extravagantly conceptual and wildly technical post-psychedelic subgenre that ruled the world for about 30 seconds in the early 1970s before being torn to pieces by the starving street dogs of punk rock?

I dislike articles like this that continue to hawk the meme that "punk killed prog."  How many of the punk bands of the 1980s are still around, or even alive?   Meanwhile, based upon the King Crimson concert I just saw, prog is doing pretty well.  


Edited by cstack3 - August 05 2017 at 12:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2017 at 12:31
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

Calling it "the whitest music ever" doesn't say anything about the music. Black people were never forbidden to play prog rock. Most of them aren't interested in it because prog is a bit complicated and it doesn't reflect who they are. There aren't that many black people in rock music in general. They identify more with rap and hip-hop, when it comes to music that is critical of the world. I've never met a black person who had parents who listened to prog rock and rarely even rock. But it is pretty common to meet parents who listened to rap, hip-hop, funk, etc.

By the way.. where's the article calling rap the "blackest music ever"?


I think Stanley Clarke would take generous exception to this guy's sentiments....if we include jazz-rock fusion into prog (whe re it belongs), there is a universe of amazing players who are non-white. 

<span style="font-family: 'Lyon Text', Georgia, Times, serif; font-size: 18px;">Do you like prog rock, the extravagantly conceptual and wildly technical post-psychedelic subgenre that ruled the world for about 30 seconds in the early 1970s before being torn to pieces by the starving street dogs of punk rock?</span>

I dislike articles like this that continue to hawk the meme that "punk killed prog."  How many of the punk bands of the 1980s are still around, or even alive?   Meanwhile, based upon the King Crimson concert I just saw, prog is doing pretty well.  



Absolutely, Charles. Punk was driven, in large parts, by the media, and, as with most media driven fads, it died out fairly quickly. Yes, there are a few of the old lads still pretending to be rebels on the road (an oxymoron, if ever I saw one), but decent music will always win out in the end. Quality outlives fads.


In Lazland, life is transient. Prog is permanent.
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