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Is western classical music, the only music genre

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fatcat View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 27 2017 at 23:26
The only music genre that has european origins?

I was listening to iannis xenakis and i notice his music is very complex like Beethoven

https://youtu.be/S-GEbbgT5Io

https://youtu.be/Q-cWg3a1b1I

Edited by fatcat - August 27 2017 at 23:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stool Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2017 at 01:07
Traditional folk music, maybe?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2017 at 01:21
I believe that there are many forms of music with European origins, especially many regional form of European folk music such as polkas and music to Morris Dance to, jigs, balladeer type music and different forms of academic/ art music.

Love Xenakis by the way.

Edited by Logan - August 28 2017 at 01:22
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2017 at 02:24
Weird question. You'd pretty much have to think that music didn't exist in the western world before "classical" who else is gonna take credit for the theater-music of the ancient greeks, gregorian chants, medieval troubadour music, renaissance dance tunes etc...? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2017 at 03:57
Howard Godall has a program about this, look it out, and there he shows various musical traditions of european origins and how it influences classical music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2017 at 14:04
@fatcat Listen to Carl Micheal Bellman, swedish trobadour ballader icon.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2017 at 17:19
no
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2017 at 17:32
no
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2017 at 21:34
Originally posted by fatcat fatcat wrote:

The only music genre that has european origins?

I was listening to iannis xenakis and i notice his music is very complex like Beethoven

https://youtu.be/S-GEbbgT5Io

https://youtu.be/Q-cWg3a1b1I


Why aren't you listening to his orchestral and chamber music? 
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2017 at 21:35
This is a weird thread I have to say, the mention of Beethoven and Xenakis (a god) isn't necessary to the question, to which the answer is an obvious no 
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2017 at 07:27
^Why not? Aren't people allowed to tell their own impressions about any form of music for that matter? He states damn clearly his own feelings about WCM....
And I don't see nothing weird about his question , as far as nobody on this site ever opened a thread about Eastern Classical Music ...needless to say a relatively unknown music form........
Furthermore, any European folk music can be as a music genre as a fair amount of world music - Andean folk, African folk etc. etc. etc..........



Edited by Tillerman88 - September 02 2017 at 07:39
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2017 at 08:34
^ What? Parsing that post would take some time, but I find it very odd.

People are allowed to post their impressions about any form of music, and I'm sure that thatfabulousalien is not saying otherwise. Why do you ask?

How does he clearly state his own feelings about WCM? All he said is that he found Xenakis to be very complex like Beethoven.

I actually find Xenakis very different from Beethoven, although both have complexity and both were innovative, but both in different ways. I would argue that while both understood, say, counterpoint, both approached the process of composition differently. Famously Xenakis was a pioneer in employing mathematical models to create music, and his background as an architect played a role in how he thought about the construction of music. Of course Xenakis knoew Beethoven's music, but I wouldn't say that his complex music is necessarily complex in the way that Beethoven's music was. thatfabulousalien knows more about this stuff than I do, as he is a music student so I won't go into many details for fear of shaming myself with someone who has deeply studied Western art/ academic music.

The comment on Xenakis and Beethoven is unnecessary to the question that is asked. It come of as an addendum. I'm not saying this is spam, but commonly spammers ask a question, then mention something tangential with a link. How important and relevant is that observation to the question? Why would one think that classical music might be the only music genre that has European origins? I don't get a sense of why in the post.

As for the rest of your post, not sure what point you are trying to make. If you mean that European folk is merely a subgenre of world folk music and not a true genre, well folk is such a broad term, and I would classify, say, polka (which is a form of folk) as a genre.

Incidentally, I'm not saying that the topic is wrong, but I find your response perplexing and I did find the topic odd myself.


"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2017 at 08:53
^hmmmm... 
First off , sorry but I can see nothing weird about stating two really groundbreaking WCM composers as very examples of whatever complexities he's found on that music genre....... 
Finally , it really amazes me how rigorous some folks here behave with music categorization, such an irrelevant aspect when it comes to tell one's own feelings about any form of music.
Anyways....never mind.



Edited by Tillerman88 - September 02 2017 at 08:55
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2017 at 10:20
But I din't think the topic was about complexity. It seems to be about two different things (albeit related), and it's the relationship between the question and the follow-up statement that seems odd to me.

What seems weird to me and Thatfabulousalien is asking "Is western classical music, the only music genre that has European origins?" Then immediately following up with "I was listening to iannis xenakis and i notice his music is very complex like Beethoven."
How relevant to the topic question is mentioning the complexity of two Western art/academic/classical music composers? I would have expected instead for what is written in the intitial post right after the question to be trying to answer, or explore the question in some way.

Example: "Is Western classical music the only music genre that has European origins?

I think that it might not be because...."

Rather than: ""Is Western classical music the only music genre that has European origins?

I was listening to iannis xenakis and i notice his music is very complex like Beethoven"

The statement looks odd in relation to the question. It doesn't seem to follow well to my mind, and I suspsect that the OP may be getting at something different that has been elusive with that particular juxtaposition.   Maybe you get, and I don't.

the statement after the question seems like an addendum, but it led me to think, is this topic merely a way to share those youtube clips and comment on that or is it more about if classical music is the only genre to come out of the West? What is the focus on this topic? (not that we can't discuss multiple things).

Now Beethoven is classical and, formally speaking, Xenakis isn't (I call Xenakis academic music), so the OP may have had something more to say than we are twigging onto. Xenakis Persepolis, his musique concrete and electro-acoustic music is very different from Beethoven's, the form and complexity is very different.

So to answer the OP in other way, no classical music is not the only Western music genre, there are many forms of folk, types of art music, musique concrète, noise, and experimental music.

Anyway, we're talking at cross purposes. I don't get the impression that you understood what we found odd about it, aside from the question seeming to have an obvious answer in saying no, its the juxtaposition of question and statement in the initial post. To answer the question, one does need to consider the similarities in the complexity of Xenakis and Beethoven. It seem quite irrelevant to the question to me.
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatfabulousalien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2017 at 19:15
Yep Logan gets what I mean with the OP and that. 

Everything else on is irrelevant to the actual question posed in the OP:............


Regarding the Xenakis/Beethoven duology. Yeah, they're both crucial classical composers who are significant in their points in history (Beethoven in the late classical/early romantic and Xenakis in the modernist). 

Just a note on electroacoustic music, it IS classical music. The 20th century introduced technology into the playing field regarding instrumentation, so of course composers leaped into the world of meta-sophisticated textures, transformations and forms. Both Xenakis and Stockhausen showed how ideas from electronic music can be transferred into acoustic music and how acoustic music ideas can be transferred into electronic music.  

Along the way, they both created some of the strongest, most emotionally and aesthetically compelling music I've ever listened to, experienced and got intimate with in my entire life. 
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hegelec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2017 at 16:54
The folk music traditions of Europe are extremely distinct and varied. Sardinian throat singing is one prominent example that comes to mind.

https://youtu.be/cWVCMvbGcPA

Also don't neglect the east; Orthodox sacred music traditions are quite distinct from Western counterparts. And Bulgarian folk choirs were quite a fashionable trend in world music during the late 80's and early 90's.

Edited by hegelec - September 10 2017 at 16:56
Cheers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2017 at 17:22
Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Yep Logan gets what I mean with the OP and that. 

Everything else on is irrelevant to the actual question posed in the OP:............


Regarding the Xenakis/Beethoven duology. Yeah, they're both crucial classical composers who are significant in their points in history (Beethoven in the late classical/early romantic and Xenakis in the modernist). 

Just a note on electroacoustic music, it IS classical music. The 20th century introduced technology into the playing field regarding instrumentation, so of course composers leaped into the world of meta-sophisticated textures, transformations and forms. Both Xenakis and Stockhausen showed how ideas from electronic music can be transferred into acoustic music and how acoustic music ideas can be transferred into electronic music.  

Along the way, they both created some of the strongest, most emotionally and aesthetically compelling music I've ever listened to, experienced and got intimate with in my entire life. 


Only noticed this now, I know that electroacoustic music is considered to be classical music, but some people only refer to classical music as music that came from the classical period.

For instance (lazily quoted from wikipedia): "
Baroque (1600–1750)
Classical (1750–1820
Romantic eras (1804–1910)
the 20th century (1901–2000) which includes the modern (1890–1930) that overlaps from the late-19th century,
the high modern (1930–present)
the impressionism (1875–1925) that also overlaps from the late-19th century
the neoclassicism (1920–1950), predominantly in the inter-war period
the postmodern (1930–present) eras
the experimental (1950–present)"

I once was in conversation with the conductor of the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra and referred to some post-classical period composition as Art Music, and he said with a bit of a sigh, just call it Classical.
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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