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StaaViinsZ 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: March 05 2014 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 101 |
 Topic: What does it take to make a prog band?Posted: September 24 2017 at 19:44 |
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OPEN UP THE FLOOD GATES AND leT THE OPINIONS FLOW TO DROWN US ALL IN GLORIOUS DEBATE!
 Jk. But feel free for discusstion! (Also disgustion, that's OK, too.)But really, what makes a prog band seems as suggestive, malleable, subjective, and relative as what makes a "metal" band (to that certain elite genre of metal fans-- no names named, if you need anything my email is [email protected]  ) It would seem some people begin speaking influences of "prog" when merely long songs arise (6 minutes and upwards), or multi-part pieces, concept/story telling, advanced (or semi-advanced) rhythms. Under some of these monikers, Gamma Day's "Land of the Free" could be considered Prog, or borderline Prog (A power metal album with a seemingly interesting concept and a few songs well over the normal "radio-friendly" length.) Just like Metal, (any respective music genre?) Prog has that elite group of fans-- the people that end up saying only a handful of bands from the 70's and before, and those who emulate them, are true Prog. I sometimes wonder if these people loved Prog in these days, had a specific idea for what Prog was THEN, (which was really an idea of the Prog they LIKED), and then they immediately cast anything aside which does not conform to these strict regulations-- and... Possibly (am I guilty of my own words?) have a hard time accepting anything very new as Prog because it's just not quite the same as those classic bands we know and love. And truly, it's not the same! Calling something Prog shouldn't have to mean "same as Prog we've heard or loved"! It can be totally different and be a totally different type and subsection of Prog that makes totally different people happy! Besides, Prog was never really meant to be consistent and predictable... Was it? Hence the name "Progressive"? A name implying... Progression. Not stagnance. But I don't knock anyone who wants to hear and play "Close to the Edge" again. I love that album.) Under my double-down, triple-lock definition of "what Prog is", (clearly, I'm spending too much time on Football season) it's anything that pushes the boundaries in it's field, and/or really expands upon the complexity and intricacies of It's respective genre-- no matter the genre. Which means... Yes... I can't say I like "Prog"! I can only say I like... You. I mean, Yes. I mean, I like some Prog. Anyway. Under my definition, a band like A Day To Remember could be considered Prog-- FOR IT'S FIELD and initial time period (First album, 2003 or so). THIS might be a stretch-- but I call being one of the first to popularize combining two distinctly different punk/metal subgenres like Pop Punk and Hardcore/"screamo" very innovative-- and... Dare I say... PROGRESSIVE for it's time, and FIELD (Punk. C'mon, guys. Is being Progressive *PUNK* reALLY tHAT HARD? ) That had never really been done before, to any great success, that I know of, and they went on to inspire hundreds, if not thousands of bands. Punk is a genre past(?)-famous for being ridiculously simple, and "anarchists banging on their instruments mercilessly". So, while A Day to Remember is a far cry from complicated time-signatures and 10 minute arrangements... Does it really take very much, under at least the 80's "old" definition of Punk, to be... Progressive Punk? Admittedly, by 2003, Punk has basically already progressed to the point of ADTR's musical content-- just in two different sects or subgenres. ADTR just took the two and combined them. So, I affectionately dub thee "Power Prog" or "Prog Pop Punk 2003 edition!" :D At least "Innovative subgenre combiner dudes"? I know, I know. I've probably lost you all by now. I remind you, however, The Beatles Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band wasn't exactly YES incarnate-- but many people regard it as PROG. Therefor telling us Prog doesn't have to be advanced... Only something which is significantly progressing it's respective Genre of music further and not purporting the same exact sameness of "oldé". Admittedly, once you cross a certain point... One could say almost everyone is Progressive... Because aren't many, many bands that bring SOME new pieces of sound to music contributing to the OVERALL PROGRESSion and "evolution" of music's sound over TIME? I know, I know, that's gotta be the most liberal definition of Prog you've ever heard. Don't worry, I'm not quite that crazy... I think. If anywhere is an open place when it comes to Prog and it's subgenres or "tinged" subcomponents, PA is it. And yes, we even love the people who think everybody is Prog... They're WRONG  , but we gotta love 'em. I sure wish I could believe that! Sure wish.So what makes Prog to you? Is Prog simply what you like-- or is it something more than that? Is Prog Yes and Deep Purple exclusively? What IS Prog? You decide. |
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"Let us scream like Tom Mallicoat, and whisper like Geoff Tate, for the difference between the two is nigh."
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
Posted: September 24 2017 at 20:36 |
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Know that a lot of long-time seasoned PA-ers are going to moan and groan over another Prog definition thread. There are a lot of them. I opened a thread quite a while ago, which was concerned not with the definition of Prog, but what part of the definition individuals found most essential to them, or meant the most to them. I'll answer your query from that standpoint. The most important aspect of Prog to me is one you didn't include in your definition. That is to expand the range and use of new or unusual timbres or sound generally. This has really motivated a lot of my interest throughout the years. After that I'm not sure how I would rank other things. I would surely emphasize the importance of odd time signatures/interesting metricality, use of unusual scales, and other sophistications from the realm of music theory. Also, I'm not sure if I would put this at second or third, but expanded length for development and transformation. Improvisation is also very important to me, though not so much to some other Prog fans.
Edited by HackettFan - September 24 2017 at 20:38 |
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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ForestFriend
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2017 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 680 |
Posted: September 24 2017 at 21:24 |
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I've always sort of disliked the idea that some bands/musicians are obligated to "progress" music as if there was some superior plane of music that we haven't yet discovered. There's just so much music out there, and people have been throwing out the musical rulebook since the 1800's so it's going to be hard to create something that's truly new.
Personally, I think for a band to be a prog rock band, it's all about breaking the boundaries of what it means to be a rock band. To me, this means that for a band to be prog, it's because they're doing things that an ordinary rock band doesn't typically do - not necessarily doing things that prog bands have never done. It's nearly impossible to break the boundaries of prog rock because there weren't really boundaries in the first place. Progressive rock is a bit of a misnomer to me because a lot of the ways bands "progressed" rock never really made it into the typical rock vocabulary. The typical rock band doesn't search for a flautist who can improvise and keep up with time signature changes in their 40 minute epic. And even though Jethro Tull did that 45 years ago, I think if you wanted to describe a new band that did that, you'd probably put them under the subgenre of prog - what else would you call them? |
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progpositivity
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: December 15 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Posted: September 24 2017 at 22:25 |
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Retro-flaut? Flaut-about? neo-Tull? ;-)
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Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
http://www.progpositivity.com |
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progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Posted: September 24 2017 at 22:34 |
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What does it take to truly define something anyway. That's right. I'm asking the really tough question everyone is afraid to ask... What is 'definition'?!? ;-)
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Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
http://www.progpositivity.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16163 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 05:15 |
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Hi, There are some suggestions, but in general, it is best if you do not take any!  Here we go: 1. Never listen to anyone's opinion in music, or art. 2. leave your music teacher after the 3rd lesson and you realize how mathematical it is. 3. Once you "know" is 1,2,3 ... you can figure out your own numbers as you please. 4. Use lots of keyboards, so you can fool your audience. 5. Do not be crazy and leave the keyboards at home and not use them. B ands without keyboards can not be "progressive" by definition, since it takes away the pastoral, the classical and the bullpucky idealism. 6. Make sure the lyrics are ... banal ... sort of like child's books. 7. Do not try to be a Kafka, or Genet ... you'll get booed off Broadway and the West End. They might like it in Paris, if you are smart and do it in 20 different languages in the same evening, so people think it's some foreign idea of neo-surrealistic-realism. 8. Make sure you stay away from bulletin boards, of any kind. 9. Try to pass by the panic attacks. They tend to slow things down, unless you drink like a faucet! 10. Lastly ... it has to be a double album ... not a long CD ... a DOUBLE ALBUM ... to get attention. If none of this works ... well ... you probably do not have any idea of what you want to do anyway. You're just flirting around with your own ideas that you think are more important than a lot of poop and you have to take your cat or dog out for a walk! Probably a better idea than the geese and a ghost ... but so it goes.
Best of all ... you got them all fooled! Your guitar is on fire and playing like crazy!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Kepler62
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 09 2017 Location: Fort Erie Status: Offline Points: 501 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 05:48 |
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Everyone in the band has to didagree on everything.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 06:12 |
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Good and original musical ideas, presented with a rock element. That element doesn't have to dominate of course. Another element, be it folk, jazz or classical could dominate in the sound, but it has to have rock at it's core.
There is arguably a difference between a prog band and prog ROCK band, but geneally I don't stress over such nuances and formalities. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 12382 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 06:20 |
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It seems that the general consensus is "long pieces, with lots of instrumental parts, odd meters, concept albums and influences from various genres", I might have forgotten a few things, but that's what I perceive when I hear peoples opinions on the subject. That's the reason I don't really define myself as a prog fan, I rather prefer "Progressive Music" which is more an inventive, challenging and stimulating approach to writing music.
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progaardvark
Collaborator
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 48737 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 06:28 |
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If it sounds like they were high on something (even if they technically weren't), then it's prog.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 06:52 |
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What does it take to make any kind of band?
Easy: don't label yourself before you find your own voice. Far too many gifted musicians set out to make prog metal/symph/math/grindcore/expressive bossa nova and get pegged down by the genre before they even start doing something interesting. Let the music find you before you start putting stickers on yourself. That way it gets to about about music - not the superfluous genre gestures that everyone and their dogs have uttered a thousand times before. |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 06:53 |
Agree. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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StaaViinsZ
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2014 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 101 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 08:17 |
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Wow, guys. I appreciate all this discussion. Thanks to each of you for lending your time to this thread! :D
I will reply more in-depth sometime later today! :) |
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"Let us scream like Tom Mallicoat, and whisper like Geoff Tate, for the difference between the two is nigh."
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Neu!mann
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 21 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 688 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 08:27 |
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What does it take to make a prog band? ...it takes brass balls.
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"we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 09:47 |
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What does it take in order for a prog band to make it - is another interesting question. My first thought would be a time machine.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Boojieboy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 02 2016 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 564 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 11:42 |
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Not wanting to copy others is a good starting point. The true prog pioneers valued not following the crowd. Doing something different and unique was a healthy and necessary factor.
A second value would be sacrificing money and financial reward. Genuine prog bands are "in it for the music", not "in it for the money". Thirdly, don't play by "the rules", or even assume there are any rules. As a musician myself, heavily into prog, those three simple principles are sufficient, satisfactory, and complete. There's no need to write a manifesto or lengthly opus. This isn't rocket science. If one goes down that path, and sticks everything under the microscope, or chains everything to rules, art and progressiveness are destroyed. P.S. You can't "make" a prog band by following some steps, like following a recipe to cook food. Going through the motions doesn't guarantee the results. You can create an atmosphere where it might happen, but that doesn't mean it will always work out. Some people are so busy cerebrally "making" a band, using their heads, that the heart and soul are absent. Reverse them though, and the odds improve dramatically.
Edited by Boojieboy - September 25 2017 at 12:14 |
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Quinino
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2011 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 3654 |
Posted: September 25 2017 at 13:51 |
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^ Wise words ! Completely agree with your point of view (artists should be better payed/rewarded, though
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Rednight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 18 2014 Location: Mar Vista, CA Status: Offline Points: 4807 |
Posted: September 26 2017 at 15:45 |
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Prodigious musicianship, frankly.
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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20503 |
Posted: September 27 2017 at 04:07 |
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Just jam for a while and see what develops. Sometimes artists slip into subliminal genres like pop, funk or whatever. There's always thrown away influences lurking about and starting off with the express intention of making just prog music seems superfluous to me. Just play different types of music that you enjoy and take it from there. |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16163 |
Posted: September 27 2017 at 07:52 |
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Hi,
This was what I was trying to get at. A little study of the history of the arts will show you how to do something no one else did, and how you can be anything, progressive included but not necessarily adhered to. The point is, a Picasso, did not have to read PA ... neither did a Dali, or a Stravinsky, or a Bunuel, or a Bartok, or a Orff and so many others ... that we refuse to take a look at, because we are enamored with rock'n'roll, the simplest version and style of music there is in the planet! A question like the one on the OP is a bit scary, because all it shows is a lack of consideration, and appreciation for all the music that has been for hundreds and hundreds of years, and how in and of itself, it was all a "progression" on what was there before, just as the jazz thing in the late 60's and rock at the same time, helped define new music ... and something that we are having a hard time defining, without trying to plunk it into a definition ... so a few folks can find it ... and they will never buy it anyway! Maybe when they are 55 or later, they will "discover" some new old music, and realize that it's history is literally insane ... and beautiful altogether!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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What does it take to make a prog band?
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Guldbamsen wrote: