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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 14:41
Prog-related can mean what Friede means, and it can refer to music itself which has a prog relation. It can also refer specifically to a "sub-genre" at Prog Archives. Prog can be in the ear of the be-hearer and so can Prog Related in the musical sense.

When I say or think prog-related, I'm not generally referring to the Prog-Related category in PA which operates under its own set of guidelines. To me it is about the music (synonyms might be quasi-prog, prog umbrella music, proggy music, "possibly prog", "prog to some"....). For instance, I consider Ennio Morricone to be a prog-related artist for lots of his 60s and 70s music (prog for some of it). As a modern one, I consider Matt Berry to be a prog-related artist for his music (prog for some of it). The Wicker Man soundtrack is prog folk related to me, Mandingo is JRF related to me etc.

In the Prog Related category, I think that there is a fair amount of Prog-proper music. Even without the reviews, I wouldn't want to see those gone. I wish we had focused more on albums rather than artists (instead of thinking of an act as prog, think of the music or an album as Prog, prog related, or neither) -- I'm not keen on the whole discography policy and that has meant that so-called prog albums are not represented in the database because of concerns about other albums by the artists).

With the PR category, the more of the PR criteria that an act ticks -- according to the category page -- the stronger the argument for inclusion and the more worthy of placement, but my bias tends to give the qualities of the music itself primary importance while also considering the other factors (if not rock, is it progressive music, and how does it relate to specific categories in PA? Can knowing the music give listeners a wider picture of the prog umbrella?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 14:48
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

A couple of things:

1) To get into prog related these days (and in the past 5 years or so) the artist needs to have influenced the prog scene on a large scale. Somehow put their mark on the genre yet without being fully fledged prog because....

That's not the only criterium for prog-related though.

2) Prog related is not prog.

No-one doubts that.

3) The sub used to be a dumping ground for members' fave bands (and everyone could add bands as they saw fit) and indeed acts that sounded "sorta proggy". Which is THE main reasons we have so many 'is X band really prog?' or different varieties where everything gets mumbled up in these muddy and extremely complex discussion filled to the brim with 'if Tori Amos is here then why not Sade?'.

You seem to confuse things a bit. I don't see how the iissue of "prog-related" has anything to do with the question "Is X really prog"?

4) Solo Phil Collins is not in any way influential to any part of the prog scene as far as I know...which is why he isn't here.

Once again - being influential to the prog scene is not the only critderium for "prog-related".

5) Many of us, including myself, would prefer scrapping the whole sub and be done with it as it generally seems to yield more inane, often heated and frustrating genre bending discussions rather than pull people in from afar - sneakily getting them into pork via the backdoor. It doesn't really work that way though.
But erasing an entire sub also means deleting the many fine reviews it holds and that would be a real shame imo.

I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:20
I think it would depend on the music. I know prog related refers to the artists in a big way, but if the music does not have any prog tendencies, then I would doubt calling it prog related.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:37
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

A couple of things:

1) To get into prog related these days (and in the past 5 years or so) the artist needs to have influenced the prog scene on a large scale. Somehow put their mark on the genre yet without being fully fledged prog because....

That's not the only criterium for prog-related though.

2) Prog related is not prog.

No-one doubts that.

3) The sub used to be a dumping ground for members' fave bands (and everyone could add bands as they saw fit) and indeed acts that sounded "sorta proggy". Which is THE main reasons we have so many 'is X band really prog?' or different varieties where everything gets mumbled up in these muddy and extremely complex discussion filled to the brim with 'if Tori Amos is here then why not Sade?'.

You seem to confuse things a bit. I don't see how the iissue of "prog-related" has anything to do with the question "Is X really prog"?

4) Solo Phil Collins is not in any way influential to any part of the prog scene as far as I know...which is why he isn't here.

Once again - being influential to the prog scene is not the only critderium for "prog-related".

5) Many of us, including myself, would prefer scrapping the whole sub and be done with it as it generally seems to yield more inane, often heated and frustrating genre bending discussions rather than pull people in from afar - sneakily getting them into pork via the backdoor. It doesn't really work that way though.
But erasing an entire sub also means deleting the many fine reviews it holds and that would be a real shame imo.

I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".


I know the different criterias for prog related, I was after all on the admin team for a while. I am just stating how the sub works these days.
You have to prove a band/artist's importance to the prog scene by being hugely influential or indeed instrumental in its evolution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:40
In the '70s almost every working musician was in some way connected to or related to prog.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:42
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

A couple of things:

1) To get into prog related these days (and in the past 5 years or so) the artist needs to have influenced the prog scene on a large scale. Somehow put their mark on the genre yet without being fully fledged prog because....

That's not the only criterium for prog-related though.

2) Prog related is not prog.

No-one doubts that.

3) The sub used to be a dumping ground for members' fave bands (and everyone could add bands as they saw fit) and indeed acts that sounded "sorta proggy". Which is THE main reasons we have so many 'is X band really prog?' or different varieties where everything gets mumbled up in these muddy and extremely complex discussion filled to the brim with 'if Tori Amos is here then why not Sade?'.

You seem to confuse things a bit. I don't see how the iissue of "prog-related" has anything to do with the question "Is X really prog"?

4) Solo Phil Collins is not in any way influential to any part of the prog scene as far as I know...which is why he isn't here.

Once again - being influential to the prog scene is not the only critderium for "prog-related".

5) Many of us, including myself, would prefer scrapping the whole sub and be done with it as it generally seems to yield more inane, often heated and frustrating genre bending discussions rather than pull people in from afar - sneakily getting them into pork via the backdoor. It doesn't really work that way though.
But erasing an entire sub also means deleting the many fine reviews it holds and that would be a real shame imo.

I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".


I know the different criterias for prog related, I was after all on the admin team for a while. I am just stating how the sub works these days.
You have to prove a band/artist's importance to the prog scene by being hugely influential or indeed instrumental in its evolution.

That seems to be near-sighted, almost a contradictio in adiecto. If there are several criteria why exclude all but one?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:44
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Originally posted by Quinino Quinino wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

One word: Sussudio.
A brilliant pop song, and actually quite complex underneath when you really listen to it, that bass line alone is worthy of the eclectic crossover prog label.
It's not prog or prog related or even good. Good night.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 15:57
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

A couple of things:

1) To get into prog related these days (and in the past 5 years or so) the artist needs to have influenced the prog scene on a large scale. Somehow put their mark on the genre yet without being fully fledged prog because....

That's not the only criterium for prog-related though.

2) Prog related is not prog.

No-one doubts that.

3) The sub used to be a dumping ground for members' fave bands (and everyone could add bands as they saw fit) and indeed acts that sounded "sorta proggy". Which is THE main reasons we have so many 'is X band really prog?' or different varieties where everything gets mumbled up in these muddy and extremely complex discussion filled to the brim with 'if Tori Amos is here then why not Sade?'.

You seem to confuse things a bit. I don't see how the iissue of "prog-related" has anything to do with the question "Is X really prog"?

4) Solo Phil Collins is not in any way influential to any part of the prog scene as far as I know...which is why he isn't here.

Once again - being influential to the prog scene is not the only critderium for "prog-related".

5) Many of us, including myself, would prefer scrapping the whole sub and be done with it as it generally seems to yield more inane, often heated and frustrating genre bending discussions rather than pull people in from afar - sneakily getting them into pork via the backdoor. It doesn't really work that way though.
But erasing an entire sub also means deleting the many fine reviews it holds and that would be a real shame imo.

I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".


I know the different criterias for prog related, I was after all on the admin team for a while. I am just stating how the sub works these days.
You have to prove a band/artist's importance to the prog scene by being hugely influential or indeed instrumental in its evolution.

That seems to be near-sighted, almost a contradictio in adiecto. If there are several criteria why exclude all but one?

Because of the reasons stated above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 16:01
Night, Steve..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frankh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 16:11
Oh. I'm sorry. I thought the thread title read "frog - related"


Never mind.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2017 at 16:40
Sorry didn't mean to brush you off Friede but I was about to eat dessert:)

I think what this basically boils down to is, once again, the age old warhorse 'progressive musiv vs prog'. A few people on PA, like Moshkito fx, have always wanted the site to be about the former and I suspect you're in the same camp.
But taking that step would also mean including other forms of progressive music such hip hop, polka, classical, pop, techno and so forth. As much as I love progressive music in all of it's aspects (these days I probably listen to far more experimental music than actual prog rock that is listed on PA) it is still not quite what this site is about...and I very much doubt that most members would enjoy such an overhaul.
It could of course also just mean that your definition of prog vastly differs from PAs.

Prog related taken at face value is more to my liking - just like Greg actually (Logan). Music that isn't really prog rock but somehow sounds related to it. Again this description can be applied to twice the number of artists already found in the database, which effectively would change the site completely.

Byw Prog related also happens to hold many of my own faves, but I still don't see the need for it unless we could multitag albums and/or completely bypass the whole discography policy....but then again do you really think this site is going to undergo any such overhaul? We've been pleading for some sort of respons regarding the whole capcha debacle for over half a year and we're still none the wiser. Anyway we've been talking about new ideas and cool update stuff for years (as long as I can remember), so I guess it must be too much of a workload having to rearrange the thousands upon thousands of bands and albums.
By the looks of it it feels more like a sinking ship without it's captain.

Edited by Guldbamsen - October 05 2017 at 17:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2017 at 04:33
If the musicians are prog-related, the music may have nothing to do with prog. For example: I cannot imagine Demis Roussos included in PA under a band name moniker if he was backed up in his baklava bakery by Lucas Sideras and Vangelis.


 
Originally posted by Frankh Frankh wrote:

Oh. I'm sorry. I thought the thread title read "frog - related"
I often read "Frog Inflated". This may have to do with my ageing eyes having increasing problems with reading small letters since 17 or 18 years.



Edited by someone_else - October 06 2017 at 04:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2017 at 04:23
I still don't understand why Vangelis is not in a full prog category
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2017 at 07:17
All i can say ---- if Phil Collins gets on this site then i'm quitting and writing a nasty review on Yelp! LOL

Seriously, Friede has an excellent point. If the rules have changed regarding Prog Related then someone needs to re-write the criteria on the PR page and explain the differences between how the category was done in the past compared to what constitutes inclusion currently.

Also, has it been discussed that some of these bizarre artists be removed now that the site has more than enough bona fide prog artists to fill its vaults? I would not miss Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Triumph etc even though i like them as artists. I can totally understand why bands like Led Zeppelin, Queen, Metallica and Iron Maiden are here since they are non-prog bands that have prog tracks now and again.

I would simply recommend to update the homepage for Prog Related whoever handles these things these days ;)


Edited by siLLy puPPy - October 07 2017 at 07:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2017 at 07:27
This is a topic that just keeps getting regurgitated on a regular basis. With regards the OP:

if a band has almost the same line-up as a certain prog band but does not play prog is it then prog-related? I think yes, but I would lkike (sic) to hear other opinions

There are (7) criteria listed on the Prog Related definition page on PA but they are not intended to be all inclusive or exhaustive. As far as personnel is concerned, whether the music played can be deemed influential upon or influenced by Prog would be an important factor for inclusion but other criteria would have to be taken into consideration e.g. Greg Lake's solo output as evidenced by his studio albums is clearly NOT Prog but every single tour he has done post ELP has included very innovative interpretations of much of his back catalogue with both Crimson and ELP. Check out Gary Moore playing Karn Evil 9 on guitar for some truly jaw dropping innovation. For this reason I can see a tenuous case for his inclusion. Similarly, you could maybe make a case for David Gilmour of Floyd, but I don't know if he covers Progressive Rock, Floyd material or otherwise in the live realm. Phil Collins, by way of contrast, appears to have a strictly NOT Prog solo album career and does not, AFAIK, include Progressive Rock material in his solo live shows.

That said, there are inclusions in Prog Related that were clearly click-bait to lure the plain vanilla Rawk fan into PA at its inception and I cannot make any sort of cogent argument for the following: (and I adore many of these artists)

Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Blue Oyster Cult, John Cale, The Church, Golden Earring, Yngwie Malsteem, Mercury Rev, Mike Rutherford, Steeleye Span, Talking Heads, Triumph.

With regards your remark: I don't belong to that group - I belong to a more radical one. I question the whole genre of "prog".

You are cordially invited to contact the site owner to determine what, if any, future direction he envisions will be pursued for PA moving forward. As things stand we have been at a crossroads for several years i.e. there is a burgeoning clamor for inclusion of all progressive developments in Rock music c/f the avowed aims of the site as being an archive of Progressive Rock. The clue's in the name really (archive usually denotes a historical record of a phenomenon that occurred in the past)


Edited by ExittheLemming - October 12 2017 at 07:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2017 at 08:15
Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Blue Oyster Cult, John Cale, The Church, Golden Earring, Yngwie Malsteem, Mercury Rev, Mike Rutherford, Steeleye Span, Talking Heads, Triumph.

i can understand why Sabbath, Maiden, Metallica and Malmsteem are here. They had some very good crossover prog material on their albums and did have their place in the fundamental building blocks of progressive metal however i agree with you on the rest. BOC? That one still remains a mystery. Likewise with Golden Earring. I would extend the list to include Japan, Journey, Klaatu, Rainbow, Wishbone Ash and i'm sure i could come up with more.

My understanding is that only the owner can delete any given artist once it's added to the site. Why is this the case? Why isn't it sufficient to allow the admins to have the power to delete artists no longer valid for inclusion? Has this ever been discussed? At the very least it seems the prog related category has been slowed down for all the extraneous artists. I know some question the presence of Buckethead here but if anyone has been reading my reviews, i'd actually place many of his albums in full-fledged prog but since many of them are not prog then prog seems like a good compromise. Interesting topic. I've had questions about this category as well. It seems many of these artists were at the whim of the creators in the beginning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2017 at 10:38
^I had been a lurker for many of the early years of these forums before I started posting in recent years, and the general consensus back in the day, was to be more inclusive. So, just an inkling of proggyness, or if somebody had a very good argument for inclusion seemed to be enough. Still, there were some heated arguments. The one I remember was for the Electric Light Orchestra. I agree though, some choices have me confused, too. It would seem that not everyone can agree what "proggy" is as opposed to what "prog" is. And that makes sense, at least to me.
 
In some ways "prog related" reminds me of the Veterans Committee of the Baseball Hall of Fame; sort of a way of rounding up those artists that couldn't make into a proper subgenre because they were borderline. I think crossover took care of a lot of that since its introduction.
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

The clue's in the name really (archive usually denotes a historical record of a phenomenon that occurred in the past)
 
I agree, it usually does. But there are actual physical archives that do collect recent primary source material, if only to preserve them with the intention that they might be historically important someday. This is especially true of archives that specialize in narrow topics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2017 at 14:12
^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2017 at 15:04
To me the bands in crossover and prog related could be interchangeable at times...I have never really understood the categories very well....but then I don't really understand the need for Neo Prog either since most of it sounds like symphonic prog to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2017 at 01:23
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still).


I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO)

That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers....


Edited by ExittheLemming - October 13 2017 at 01:29
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