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I reread her initial thread and it looks like she stumbled over some of the old threads where there were quite a few discouraged old men spewing non-sense - trying to figure out why they couldn't get the love of their life to enjoy prog or bemoaning the fact that every prog gig turned out to be a sausage fest. We don't really see that on here today, but if and when we do we often ridicule said person for sporting such antique views on the opposite sex. There are not a lot of women at prog gigs. I know, I've been to quite a few. I've seen a lot of women play in prog bands though, yet the audiences almost always consist of men. This is not me trying to underline a point by twisting reality - no this is merely a representation of the real world.
The prog world IS largely male dominated but not because of some secret misogonistic conspiracy. There are just more men that gravitate towards the genre is all.
Edited by Guldbamsen - December 28 2017 at 10:44
The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 11:18
omphaloskepsis wrote:
I've never been mocked on Progarchives for being a woman. I'm more likely to get mocked for liking The Big Generator.
I like female oriented prog. Kate Bush, Renaissance, Magenta, White Willow, and Unreal City has a female guitarist. As long as it's good I don't care who you are.
Whew! I thought for a moment that there were no female prog fans left on earth! Thank you!
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 13:07
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Mortte wrote:
I think you Marissa started very important discussion. I started also same kind of, but didnīt manage put my words right way. I think the main point in that was, why still in 2000 there are so little women in prog? Yes, world have gone forward in this male/female thing, but I think itīs still menīs world. What proves is that "me too"-campaign. I have heard many actors, musicians that are female said, itīs still very common if you try to go forward in your career "you have to please so certain producers (that are men)". I think also itīs very naive to say "nobody in this forum doesnīt want to ban you". I think here are quite much people round the world and really all the men donīt think like I think. In Finland for example certain way thinking female politics get the most of the rubbish through the internet (well quite often also men who are feminists). And the reactions "donīt claim, just quietly do your thing" just shows that this is important issue the world really shouldnīt quiet. And if somebodyīs going to attack against me, I am not answering anymore, I think I have said what I have to say.
I agree it is an important discussion as to why there are more women in prog, however is it really men keeping women from becoming part of it? A female band can just as easily self-create and self-produce any music and put it out on Bandcamp as can men. So in effect, the music industry is no longer a big boys club that grabs women by the throat and makes them do things against their will in order to put out their music. I am quite sympathetic to women who are subjected to such crimes against their volition but i'm just not convinced that most women are interested in the more abstract forms of music in my experience. Personally i would LOVE to see more female equality in this department. BTW, the same goes for extreme metal. I have not met a single female specimen who's into Gorguts, Atheist, Cynic and the most extreme examples of metal as males are. Let's fact it. Men and women have differences and it's OK. We don't have to be so politically correct that we forgot our own natural differences. As i stated before. Women should band together and create an alternative industry if they feel they are being held back.
I am not saying, that in todayīs progmusic men keep women away from prog. But I think the male dominated history of rock will also effect todayīs rock and a little todayīs prog too. Progmusic isnīt today really a part of commercial rock business, so I think many women in prog can do their thing without disturbance. But I believe in music business generally women could have suggestions still from men if they want to go forward in their career. It is so in the movie industry too. Attitudes also are things that change very slowly.
There are really lot of examples in the history, how serious music making has been really difficult to women. The Raincoats never achieved the attention they deserved (not as great band Slits got more attention, well I think their almost naked cover in their Cut album has something to do with that, Raincoats never done anything like that). Even Kate Bush got lot of really bad attention in the beginning of her career, because she told to the press sheīs interested in spirituality. Then the press is thinking "sheīs just one of those fool women". Björk got lots of disturbing from Lars Von Tier. What I am trying to say that it is so easy to say as a man "women donīt have any problems into todayīs musicgenre" because no male musician have ever such experiences in this male world as females.
Although Marissa may overreact, why there was so much attacking towards her from men? What about if everybody just have said "sorry to hear you experience that?" Of course I understand, if she personally accused somebody, but I didnīt notice anything like that.
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 18:10
Mortte wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Mortte wrote:
I think you Marissa started very important discussion. I started also same kind of, but didnīt manage put my words right way. I think the main point in that was, why still in 2000 there are so little women in prog? Yes, world have gone forward in this male/female thing, but I think itīs still menīs world. What proves is that "me too"-campaign. I have heard many actors, musicians that are female said, itīs still very common if you try to go forward in your career "you have to please so certain producers (that are men)". I think also itīs very naive to say "nobody in this forum doesnīt want to ban you". I think here are quite much people round the world and really all the men donīt think like I think. In Finland for example certain way thinking female politics get the most of the rubbish through the internet (well quite often also men who are feminists). And the reactions "donīt claim, just quietly do your thing" just shows that this is important issue the world really shouldnīt quiet. And if somebodyīs going to attack against me, I am not answering anymore, I think I have said what I have to say.
I agree it is an important discussion as to why there are more women in prog, however is it really men keeping women from becoming part of it? A female band can just as easily self-create and self-produce any music and put it out on Bandcamp as can men. So in effect, the music industry is no longer a big boys club that grabs women by the throat and makes them do things against their will in order to put out their music. I am quite sympathetic to women who are subjected to such crimes against their volition but i'm just not convinced that most women are interested in the more abstract forms of music in my experience. Personally i would LOVE to see more female equality in this department. BTW, the same goes for extreme metal. I have not met a single female specimen who's into Gorguts, Atheist, Cynic and the most extreme examples of metal as males are. Let's fact it. Men and women have differences and it's OK. We don't have to be so politically correct that we forgot our own natural differences. As i stated before. Women should band together and create an alternative industry if they feel they are being held back.
I am not saying, that in todayīs progmusic men keep women away from prog. But I think the male dominated history of rock will also effect todayīs rock and a little todayīs prog too. Progmusic isnīt today really a part of commercial rock business, so I think many women in prog can do their thing without disturbance. But I believe in music business generally women could have suggestions still from men if they want to go forward in their career. It is so in the movie industry too. Attitudes also are things that change very slowly.
And there are men who are helping talented women achieve those goals. There is NOTHING, i repeat, NOTHING that can stop any single person from developing their talents provided you live in a country that doesn't treat certain segments of the population like property and i am woefully aware that in many parts of the world that it is the case.
There are really lot of examples in the history, how serious music making has been really difficult to women. The Raincoats never achieved the attention they deserved (not as great band Slits got more attention, well I think their almost naked cover in their Cut album has something to do with that, Raincoats never done anything like that). Even Kate Bush got lot of really bad attention in the beginning of her career, because she told to the press sheīs interested in spirituality. Then the press is thinking "sheīs just one of those fool women". Björk got lots of disturbing from Lars Von Tier. What I am trying to say that it is so easy to say as a man "women donīt have any problems into todayīs musicgenre" because no male musician have ever such experiences in this male world as females.
History is filled with every kind of injustice one human being can administer against another or a whole population in the worst ways possible, so in this respect most human beings could start crying and demanding sympathy for injustices done against them. Not only women are raped, so are children (and men). We're all financially exploited. Many countries are being bombed by US drones etc..... The world sucks big time in many ways but that is the beauty of musical emersion. We can escape. We can heal. We get over it the best we can.
Although Marissa may overreact, why there was so much attacking towards her from men? What about if everybody just have said "sorry to hear you experience that?" Of course I understand, if she personally accused somebody, but I didnīt notice anything like that.
I cannot detect a single iota of anyone attacking Marissa in this chat. She in effect has created a thread that is nothing more than inviting everyone to a pity party. Oh poor me. I was discriminated against in the past. My heart bleeds like a menstruating nun's convent. Gimme a friggin' break. What if everyone who was molested by a priest started posting here? Abused by parents. Dropped on their head as a baby. Forced to watch US sitcoms. What i detect is a bunch of men here trying to empathise and share how much they respect the female energies participating in the prog world. Apologies are reserved for wrongdoings of individuals. Empathy is for solidarity and i have seen nothing but that so far. If you don't see this like i do then i guess you don't speak English so well.
Get over the past. It's over. Go to therapy if you need to but all the road blocks of the past no longer exist. If anyone has the talent, they can share it. Don't blame any other sector of humanity if you think you have talent and nobody else seems to think so. There's a difference between real abuse and self dillusion. I've had plenty of chats with my lady friends about these things and they have assured me that women are just as capable of abusing men as the other way around. Personally i have never detected even the slightest whiff of gender discrimination on this site or in the prog universe in general. True that the music industry has been tradtionally evil and that's why i've avoided it myself by remaining independent. Perhaps the way this conversation started immediately provoked a "fight or flight" response and it might be prudent to approach these topics with a little more finesse since this is indeed a sensitive topic. I dont' want to demean or underemphasize these issues in the least bit. I'm merely trying to clarify obvious misunderstanding that have ensued in this minefield of emotional outpour.
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 18:30
Mortte wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
I've never been mocked on Progarchives for being a woman. I'm more likely to get mocked for liking The Big Generator.
Why? Big Generator is a great album.
I adore The Big Generator and your homeland- Finland. I've done speeches at local Universities extolling the virtues of Finland's educational system. I admire your country!
I feel The Big Generator is Yes's most underappreciated album, I can't understand how such a high percentage of prog people could listen to the Big Generator 4 or 5 times and hate the album. Over half the Progarchive reviews and ratings give The Big Generator a one or a two. My guess? Folks feel vicious Steve Howe vitriol blasphemy against Trevor Rabin. But remember, Steve Howe was exploring Asia. Give Trevor a break. Relax, go in open minded, accompanied by Mary Jane and give the Big Generator an unbiased listen, as if you didn't know it was YES sans Steve Howe album. I dare ya! It's possible that I've listened to The Big Generator more than any YES album. It's a toss up between Close to the Edge and the Yes Album and Big Generator.
Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 28 2017 at 18:43
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 18:30
Mortte wrote:
Although Marissa may overreact, why there was so much attacking towards her from men? What about if everybody just have said "sorry to hear you experience that?"
Utterly false, check the first page. But this is how misunderstandings start, isn't it: Bad listening skills.
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 20:29
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Mortte wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
I've never been mocked on Progarchives for being a woman. I'm more likely to get mocked for liking The Big Generator.
Why? Big Generator is a great album.
I adore The Big Generator and your homeland- Finland. I've done speeches at local Universities extolling the virtues of Finland's educational system. I admire your country!
I feel The Big Generator is Yes's most underappreciated album, I can't understand how such a high percentage of prog people could listen to the Big Generator 4 or 5 times and hate the album. Over half the Progarchive reviews and ratings give The Big Generator a one or a two. My guess? Folks feel vicious Steve Howe vitriol blasphemy against Trevor Rabin. But remember, Steve Howe was exploring Asia. Give Trevor a break. Relax, go in open minded, accompanied by Mary Jane and give the Big Generator an unbiased listen, as if you didn't know it was YES sans Steve Howe album. I dare ya! It's possible that I've listened to The Big Generator more than any YES album. It's a toss up between Close to the Edge and the Yes Album and Big Generator.
I did get Big Generator without much knowledge about it suposedly being a bad album, or a less proggy album, or whatever. Still, well, I did not hate it, it was just meh. I don't really care for it, and I could easily do without it. And yes, it was just about the same thing with Asia.
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 20:38
Evolver wrote:
On the last Purson album, composer Rosalie Cunningham played most of the instruments herself. This album was very well received, not only here, but at other prog sites as well.
Oh. released a debut progressive rock EP "Sleeping World" in 2013 with the award winning video "Trials - A Song for a Lost Generation", and followed it up with the metal album and vinyl release "Synemotion" in 2015. There followed two singles, "Love Will Heal" and "Love of Avalanches" in 2016 - with a handcrafted 360° fully immersivevirtual reality music video to accompany the latter.
A single "I'm in Love" was released back in the summer, and another new song "Deserted Eyes" is coming up for release in a couple of weeks time. A prog metal EP "Metallia" and progressive rock album "Prog Unshaven"are being worked on at the moment.
Olivia composes, performs and produces her music, plays the guitar (electric and acoustic), bass, drums, violin, piano and percussion. She is also an accomplished sound engineer and mixes and masters her work. She lives between New York, NY and Athens, Greece.
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 23:37
siLLy puPPy wrote:
History is filled with every kind of injustice one human being can administer against another or a whole population in the worst ways possible,
Get over the past. It's over. Go to therapy if you need to but all the road blocks of the past no longer exist. If anyone has the talent, they can share it. Don't blame any other sector of humanity if you think you have talent and nobody else seems to think so. There's a difference between real abuse and self dillusion. I've had plenty of chats with my lady friends about these things and they have assured me that women are just as capable of abusing men as the other way around. Personally i have never detected even the slightest whiff of gender discrimination on this site or in the prog universe in general. True that the music industry has been tradtionally evil and that's why i've avoided it myself by remaining independent. Perhaps the way this conversation started immediately provoked a "fight or flight" response and it might be prudent to approach these topics with a little more finesse since this is indeed a sensitive topic. I dont' want to demean or underemphasize these issues in the least bit. I'm merely trying to clarify obvious misunderstanding that have ensued in this minefield of emotional outpour.
I think I made a mistake when starting this with you. If you donīt see, this world has been menīs world and still is many ways (there are still different wages for men and women in FINLAND), this is just useless. I have been a little time in this forum, so I canīt say has there been gender discrimination or not here. But that discussion I started I think there were opinions about earlier discussions that there had been men who started to analyze womenīs psych, also I got very strong reactions even I think my starting was really neutral. Also I donīt think Marissa has been the only one who has got really big emotions with this issue. Yes, today`s world talent is the thing that donīt automatically get yourself attention, no matter are you man or woman. But that doesnīt mean this world is equal even in the western countries and women automatically can do as much as men. Itīs really hard to believe me prog music is isolated area from the other world and anyone, who listens prog is not chauvinist pig. But I had anyway no need to continue this anymore, you seem to live so wonderous world that I leave you there.
About my English, yes itīs not my mothers tongue. Really try to learn it more all the time.
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 23:53
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Mortte wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
I've never been mocked on Progarchives for being a woman. I'm more likely to get mocked for liking The Big Generator.
Why? Big Generator is a great album.
I adore The Big Generator and your homeland- Finland. I've done speeches at local Universities extolling the virtues of Finland's educational system. I admire your country!
I feel The Big Generator is Yes's most underappreciated album, I can't understand how such a high percentage of prog people could listen to the Big Generator 4 or 5 times and hate the album. Over half the Progarchive reviews and ratings give The Big Generator a one or a two. My guess? Folks feel vicious Steve Howe vitriol blasphemy against Trevor Rabin. But remember, Steve Howe was exploring Asia. Give Trevor a break. Relax, go in open minded, accompanied by Mary Jane and give the Big Generator an unbiased listen, as if you didn't know it was YES sans Steve Howe album. I dare ya! It's possible that I've listened to The Big Generator more than any YES album. It's a toss up between Close to the Edge and the Yes Album and Big Generator.
Well, I think you have no real reason adore Finland. All the years this country is going to the worse direction. Simply said rich is getting richer and poor poorer. Also the last goverment has weakened our education system. But the nature is of course still beautiful here.
I really love 90125, but Big Generator is even better. I heard it first time immediately when it came and loved it right then. I remembered when I think it was really great there were more prog than that earlier album. I am not AOR-fan at all, but I think Yes and Genesis succeeded put in their "AOR" enough prog that their albums become interesting (well invisible touch is song that I donīt like really much). Only Genesis album that I donīt like is Calling All Stations, because it doesnīt sound Genesis at all. But I think all the Yes albums are less or more good.
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Posted: December 29 2017 at 01:02
Mortte wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
History is filled with every kind of injustice one human being can administer against another or a whole population in the worst ways possible,
Get over the past. It's over. Go to therapy if you need to but all the road blocks of the past no longer exist. If anyone has the talent, they can share it. Don't blame any other sector of humanity if you think you have talent and nobody else seems to think so. There's a difference between real abuse and self dillusion. I've had plenty of chats with my lady friends about these things and they have assured me that women are just as capable of abusing men as the other way around. Personally i have never detected even the slightest whiff of gender discrimination on this site or in the prog universe in general. True that the music industry has been tradtionally evil and that's why i've avoided it myself by remaining independent. Perhaps the way this conversation started immediately provoked a "fight or flight" response and it might be prudent to approach these topics with a little more finesse since this is indeed a sensitive topic. I dont' want to demean or underemphasize these issues in the least bit. I'm merely trying to clarify obvious misunderstanding that have ensued in this minefield of emotional outpour.
I think I made a mistake when starting this with you. If you donīt see, this world has been menīs world and still is many ways (there are still different wages for men and women in FINLAND), this is just useless. I have been a little time in this forum, so I canīt say has there been gender discrimination or not here. But that discussion I started I think there were opinions about earlier discussions that there had been men who started to analyze womenīs psych, also I got very strong reactions even I think my starting was really neutral. Also I donīt think Marissa has been the only one who has got really big emotions with this issue. Yes, today`s world talent is the thing that donīt automatically get yourself attention, no matter are you man or woman. But that doesnīt mean this world is equal even in the western countries and women automatically can do as much as men. Itīs really hard to believe me prog music is isolated area from the other world and anyone, who listens prog is not chauvinist pig. But I had anyway no need to continue this anymore, you seem to live so wonderous world that I leave you there.
About my English, yes itīs not my mothers tongue. Really try to learn it more all the time.
It's not only prog. Rock has this problem in general. Meanwhile you have female musicians leading jazz bands so I presume jazz is not as abstract as rock. Whatever. The issue is rock is seen as male music and bands start out with a bunch of young men playing together. This tends to exclude women at the very inception and that is why we see female singers rather than musicians in prog. However, Bent Knee's bassist is a woman so it is changing. Maybe far too slowly but the only option we have is to keep building upon such progress. It is admittedly difficult; came across a bizarre news item which said a pub had banned bands with female singers purportedly at the instigation of the patrons.
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Posted: December 29 2017 at 01:52
^And afaic Finland does have a good history of Jazz bands. IMO, Jazz is even more abstract than Rock....
Yes we're still far from an equality, but I think this problem will not persist over time, just see the ever increasing amount of female musicians in the pop, electronic and classical milieus - and what a GREAT news for the music btw ;)
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Posted: December 29 2017 at 03:49
rogerthat wrote:
Mortte wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
History is filled with every kind of injustice one human being can administer against another or a whole population in the worst ways possible,
Get over the past. It's over. Go to therapy if you need to but all the road blocks of the past no longer exist. If anyone has the talent, they can share it. Don't blame any other sector of humanity if you think you have talent and nobody else seems to think so. There's a difference between real abuse and self dillusion. I've had plenty of chats with my lady friends about these things and they have assured me that women are just as capable of abusing men as the other way around. Personally i have never detected even the slightest whiff of gender discrimination on this site or in the prog universe in general. True that the music industry has been tradtionally evil and that's why i've avoided it myself by remaining independent. Perhaps the way this conversation started immediately provoked a "fight or flight" response and it might be prudent to approach these topics with a little more finesse since this is indeed a sensitive topic. I dont' want to demean or underemphasize these issues in the least bit. I'm merely trying to clarify obvious misunderstanding that have ensued in this minefield of emotional outpour.
I think I made a mistake when starting this with you. If you donīt see, this world has been menīs world and still is many ways (there are still different wages for men and women in FINLAND), this is just useless. I have been a little time in this forum, so I canīt say has there been gender discrimination or not here. But that discussion I started I think there were opinions about earlier discussions that there had been men who started to analyze womenīs psych, also I got very strong reactions even I think my starting was really neutral. Also I donīt think Marissa has been the only one who has got really big emotions with this issue. Yes, today`s world talent is the thing that donīt automatically get yourself attention, no matter are you man or woman. But that doesnīt mean this world is equal even in the western countries and women automatically can do as much as men. Itīs really hard to believe me prog music is isolated area from the other world and anyone, who listens prog is not chauvinist pig. But I had anyway no need to continue this anymore, you seem to live so wonderous world that I leave you there.
About my English, yes itīs not my mothers tongue. Really try to learn it more all the time.
It's not only prog. Rock has this problem in general. Meanwhile you have female musicians leading jazz bands so I presume jazz is not as abstract as rock. Whatever. The issue is rock is seen as male music and bands start out with a bunch of young men playing together. This tends to exclude women at the very inception and that is why we see female singers rather than musicians in prog. However, Bent Knee's bassist is a woman so it is changing. Maybe far too slowly but the only option we have is to keep building upon such progress. It is admittedly difficult; came across a bizarre news item which said a pub had banned bands with female singers purportedly at the instigation of the patrons.
Personally I love 90125 but Big Generator is really too much "80". I feel it the same as GTR even if it contains a couple of very good tracks. Not as disappointing as GTR, anyway.
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com
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Posted: December 29 2017 at 04:11
I guess this thread has lost its spark by now but anyways, doesn't it make a bit of sense that rock in general, a genre built on the characteristics of thick, banging, loud instruments and dumb power would be mostly filled by men, while women tend to take to more melodious genres like pop and classical? And if you're talking about the industry and unfair treatment there, I wouldn't know since I'm not in the industry and it's not a very transparent one either so maybe this is a topic better discussed amongst insiders? Anyway I don't think many people here care specifically whether the musician they're listening to is female because the private lives and personalities of the people behind the next random band you listen to is just not relevant to the purpose of the music...
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Posted: December 29 2017 at 07:08
[/QUOTE]I think I made a mistake when starting this with you. If you donīt see, this world has been menīs world and still is many ways (there are still different wages for men and women in FINLAND), this is just useless. I have been a little time in this forum, so I canīt say has there been gender discrimination or not here. But that discussion I started I think there were opinions about earlier discussions that there had been men who started to analyze womenīs psych, also I got very strong reactions even I think my starting was really neutral. Also I donīt think Marissa has been the only one who has got really big emotions with this issue. Yes, today`s world talent is the thing that donīt automatically get yourself attention, no matter are you man or woman. But that doesnīt mean this world is equal even in the western countries and women automatically can do as much as men. Itīs really hard to believe me prog music is isolated area from the other world and anyone, who listens prog is not chauvinist pig. But I had anyway no need to continue this anymore, you seem to live so wonderous world that I leave you there.
About my English, yes itīs not my mothers tongue. Really try to learn it more all the time.
[/QUOTE]
If you aren't prepared to speak in a logical manner then yes you made a mistake
The problem is that this thread started as why aren't there more women in prog
And it has turned into women don't get equal pay in general?
The world never has been and probably never will be fair or just
Men are physically more agressive and are attracted to more bombastic arts
Women have made the mistake of trying to compete with men instead of developing their own talents and characteristics
If men are not awarding women equal pay then WHY (i keep asking) why don't women create an alternative paradigm to the male dominated society? As 50% of consumers, why don't more women support women musicians? With half of the population on the same side, things SHOULD even out
But we know that doesn't happen otherwise the sexually assaulting prez of the US never would have been elected.
All i'm saying is that we can talk about this all you want but you're preaching to the choir on this site. The men who control the world not only control women, they control all life on the planet. I wish i had a magic wand to make everything better but this is what we're stuck with and of course i symphathize for all effected
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Posted: December 28 2017 at 10:42
But remember, Steve Howe was exploring Asia. Give Trevor a break. Relax, go in open minded, accompanied by Mary Jane and give the Big Generator an unbiased listen, as if you didn't know it was YES sans Steve Howe album. I dare ya! It's possible that I've listened to The Big Generator more than any YES album. It's a toss up between Close to the Edge and the Yes Album and Big Generator. 
Do believe that females are progressive musicians?
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octopus-4 wrote: