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Anyone Else Enjoy Counting Time Signatures/Meter?

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hieronymous View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hieronymous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2018 at 21:14
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

I swear there are parts on Gentle Giant Acquiring The Taste that are in 19+/4.
I haven't listened to Gently Giant in a long time - not sure I even have the CDs anymore. 

An interesting aspect of odd time signatures is that they can often be broken down. So something in 7 could have every measure being 7 beats, or it could be a measure of 8 and a measure of 6 - "Estimated Prophet" by the Grateful Dead springs to mind.



It also depends if you're thinking in terms of quarter notes or eighth notes - that's why I've been saying 7 or 6 instead of 7/8, 5/4, etc. 

Basically anything can be broken down into 2 or 3!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2018 at 22:24
I don't count very often. You don't generally need to with odd time sigs, because there are usually smaller asymmetries introduced between notes and rests, between downward strums and upward strums on a guitar, in the repetition of a target note or some other such thing that helps one rhythmically locate. In other words, if it's an odd number, there can be no fully regular and even sub-divides. As a guitar player I find that 9/8 usually feels very natural to me. I'm often more likely get lost with 8/8 and that's when I'm more likely to count.
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rminsk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2018 at 23:08
Tony Levin about one of the King Crimson shows:

Some of my friends in the audience thought tonight’s show was even better than last nights, and maybe it was.

But there was one train wreck. And a Crimson train wreck is, well, not like other bands… a King Crimson train wreck takes out the whole train station. And maybe the town it’s in!

Allow me to explain.

It happed during “The ConstruKction of Light”, a particularly complex piece. I’ve mentioned in a few interviews that to me, Trey Gunn’s touch guitar part on that piece is the best I know of, for utilizing what the instrument can do, and complementing the music in a unique way.

But it’s really tricky… took me ages to learn, and even now that I’ve got it down, things can go wrong at any point.

And tonight, things indeed went wrong. It’s hard to say where it began… hard, not because I don’t know, but because I know it was because of me!

Only a little error… pausing four beats instead of six. (there are various pauses of both lengths in the piece.) But in this piece, we’re not all playing in the same time signature, so the two guitarists, hearing me enter early, didn’t know when to enter with their parts… opted instead to let me keep going on my own.

And I did keep going. The drums are out in that section, so it was just me, playing on and on in a complex eighth note pattern, hoping someone would come in. That lasted for ages (to me) and finally the drummers and I came together with the 15/8 figure that signals the end of what could be called the verse.

But then, a new issue.. would the guitars enter with verse two, or, not having played anything yet, start in on verse one. Alas, they didn’t agree on that. They came in with both, hence in different keys! The ensuing harmonic mess left them no choice but to stop again, leaving… you guessed it, just me playing alone again.

By now, we certainly knew we had a problem about how to bring this piece together. There’s no just counting ‘one two three four’ when one player’s in 28/8 and others in 7/4 offset a quarter note from each other, and the drummers waiting to join in in 15/8 to signal finally getting beyond the verses!

I could have just stopped and admitted defeat (maybe thrown up my hands and shouted “Thank You” in a Spinal Tap maneuver.) But, right or wrong, (well, wrong or wrong) I persisted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2018 at 02:20

Originally posted by hieronymous hieronymous wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

I swear there are parts on Gentle Giant Acquiring The Taste that are in 19+/4.

I haven't listened to Gently Giant in a long time - not sure I even have the CDs anymore. 

An interesting aspect of odd time signatures is that they can often be broken down. So something in 7 could have every measure being 7 beats, or it could be a measure of 8 and a measure of 6 - "Estimated Prophet" by the Grateful Dead springs to mind.

It also depends if you're thinking in terms of quarter notes or eighth notes - that's why I've been saying 7 or 6 instead of 7/8, 5/4, etc. 

Basically anything can be broken down into 2 or 3!

^Correct. I break them in half most of the time because it's easier to count two halves then add...then count in halves lol.

ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX-SEV - - ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX-SEV is how I would personally count out a 14/4. 

ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX - - ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR-FIVE-SIX would be a 12/4, which could be reduced to 3/4 anyway.

That's exactly why it's called "math" rock. It's not hard, you just have to think a bit more about what's going on and then not sound like a rocket scientist when breaking it down to other musicians! 

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

I don't count very often. You don't generally need to with odd time sigs, because there are usually smaller asymmetries introduced between notes and rests, between downward strums and upward strums on a guitar, in the repetition of a target note or some other such thing that helps one rhythmically locate. In other words, if it's an odd number, there can be no fully regular and even sub-divides. As a guitar player I find that 9/8 usually feels very natural to me. I'm often more likely get lost with 8/8 and that's when I'm more likely to count.

This is also correct. It's just like math; reduce! Some of the craziest, 18+/4+ time sigs can be managed by "defanging" them by counting out three sets of 6 notes. This is actually the easiest way to keep up with GG!


Originally posted by rminsk rminsk wrote:

Tony Levin about one of the King Crimson shows:

Some of my friends in the audience thought tonight’s show was even better than last nights, and maybe it was.

But there was one train wreck. And a Crimson train wreck is, well, not like other bands… a King Crimson train wreck takes out the whole train station. And maybe the town it’s in!

Allow me to explain.

It happed during “The ConstruKction of Light”, a particularly complex piece. I’ve mentioned in a few interviews that to me, Trey Gunn’s touch guitar part on that piece is the best I know of, for utilizing what the instrument can do, and complementing the music in a unique way.

But it’s really tricky… took me ages to learn, and even now that I’ve got it down, things can go wrong at any point.

And tonight, things indeed went wrong. It’s hard to say where it began… hard, not because I don’t know, but because I know it was because of me!

Only a little error… pausing four beats instead of six. (there are various pauses of both lengths in the piece.) But in this piece, we’re not all playing in the same time signature, so the two guitarists, hearing me enter early, didn’t know when to enter with their parts… opted instead to let me keep going on my own.

And I did keep going. The drums are out in that section, so it was just me, playing on and on in a complex eighth note pattern, hoping someone would come in. That lasted for ages (to me) and finally the drummers and I came together with the 15/8 figure that signals the end of what could be called the verse.

But then, a new issue.. would the guitars enter with verse two, or, not having played anything yet, start in on verse one. Alas, they didn’t agree on that. They came in with both, hence in different keys! The ensuing harmonic mess left them no choice but to stop again, leaving… you guessed it, just me playing alone again.

By now, we certainly knew we had a problem about how to bring this piece together. There’s no just counting ‘one two three four’ when one player’s in 28/8 and others in 7/4 offset a quarter note from each other, and the drummers waiting to join in in 15/8 to signal finally getting beyond the verses!

I could have just stopped and admitted defeat (maybe thrown up my hands and shouted “Thank You” in a Spinal Tap maneuver.) But, right or wrong, (well, wrong or wrong) I persisted.

Absolutely awesome post and story! Spot on! Levin in as master, no doubt.

Jamshire

Jazz fusion all day, baby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2018 at 15:39
Love that Tony Levin story!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2018 at 20:37
No, it's just you--and the rest of us want you to stop it.





Edited by Peter - January 04 2018 at 20:39
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2018 at 02:27
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

No, it's just you--and the rest of us want you to stop it.




Sorry I didn't understand your post I was too busy counting out riffs, bro! Wink
Jamshire

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2018 at 09:07
Hi,

Not sure that the "mechanics" are what the music is really about in the end, but hearing folks talk a bout this makes me want to take a hit of acid (some good 25 or Mescaline would be nice!), so I could just enjoy the music and all the playing and forget all the mechanics.

Pierre Moerlin, in a talk we had here in Portland, said that sometimes you have to let go the counting and just do it, but you have to be ready to return and join the others ... and most MASTER musicians can do this easily enough, and often, as is the case with the Tony Levin example, you can tell that they had pretty much prepared how to handle some issues in performance, to be able to stay together, but even with the very best in the business, it still finds a moment when it did not work quite right ...

But we forget one thing ... most of the audience, can NOT tell this, and I just close my eyes and flip through the emotional feelings the music itself creates, and these "bad moments" also give you pause and experiential moments, that it's really hard to musically write and put down since they are a mechanic of the playing, not the fingers on the scale. (Those create some other issues!).

Most listeners, myself included, can not tell when the note is wrong, and the measure is wrong, and its fine to see "musicians" concerned with this perfection, but I think that when you look at just the notes and its numbers ... that you are not LISTENING to what is happening around you, and your communication and continuity with it, gets broken ... sometimes, and GG showed this time and again, the best errors are the ones that give you a new moment ... and even another person that lives on that almost alone is Andy Partridge of XTC, a band that is hard to enjoy and appreciate because there is so much weirdness and oddball moments and things in it all the time, that it drives you nuts!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2018 at 10:41
EDIT: My phone ate this post Cry


Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - January 05 2018 at 13:52
Jamshire

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2018 at 13:29
Quote Might not be 100% accurate doing this rather quickly on the spot:
Violin 0:00 - 00:10  8/4
Violin fill after the 00:10 mark 19/4 (anywhere between 18-21/4 honestly hard to tell)
Keyboard melody 00:37 14/4
Vocals 00:51 13/4, 12/4, 12/4, 8/4
Guitar 01:07 9/4, 8/4, 9/4
Keys 01:17 17/4, 12/4
Guitar/Violin 01:46 10/4
Acoustic guitar fill 01:53 8/4
Violin madness 01:57 17/4?
Sax fill 02:20 16/4?
Vocals "Standing on the ice believing who I'm searching for/Close your cloud eyes and chase all that you did before 13/4
Vocals - "Living in a glass house shielding all that's mean for me..." 13/4
Guitar Fill/Transition 4:15 - 5/4
GROOVE RIFF! 04:16 - 11/4, 12/4, 12/4, 5/4
Vocals - 13/4, 8/4
Kerry's interlude - 11/4
Blue Grass/Folk Guitar Break - 7/4?
Groove riff/outro - 11/4, 12/4, etc.

I don't get that at all !

If I count a beat every six notes and decide it's a "dotted half note" divided into 6 "quavers" (or "eights") then consider those beats form a sequence of 6 x 6/8 measures, the drums play 3 x 4/4 + 2 x 6/8 = 36 eights, equivalent of 6 x 6/8 or 4/2 + 2/2 if we decide the unit is a 3rd note, but I find it less simple to describe.

Focusing on guitar I get at the beginning

5+5+2+3x2+3x2  + (forte)  2x(3x2) = 36

I count six sequences like this

So if u = unit of time = quaver = eight we'd get :

0'37 5 x (2x6u + 2x3u) until vocals, then 3 x (2x6u + 2x3u) + 2x6u.

1'02 7x3u + 8x3u + 7x3u + 7x3u

1'16 2 x (4x3u + 3x3u + 3x3u + 6x3u) then 4x3u + 3x3u + 3x3u + 6x3u + 6x3u + 6x3u + 1x3u + 2 x (6x3u) + 5x3u + 8u (harmonics)

1'56 4 sequences like beginning + 2x6u

2'19 4x (3 x 6/4 + 7/4) + 2x6u + 4u + 8u

2'53 2 x (2x6u + 2x3u) + 2x6u

3'03 7x3u + 8x3u + 8x3u + 12x3u (tricky with guitar syncopations) + 7x3u + 8x3u + 8x3u + 8x3u 

3'35 same as 1'16 except the last 8u , 6/4 instead

4'16 4 x ( 7/4 + 10/4 + 4/4 + 4/2 ) + 4/4 + 6/2 
 
5'02 7/2 + 1/2 + 6/2 + 1/2 + 4/2 + 5u

5'17 7/4 + 10/4 + 12/4

5'26 2 x ( 7/4 + 10/4 + 4/4 + 4/2 ) +2/2 

5'48 8/2 + 7/2 + 1/2 +  4/2 + 5u

6'02 4/2 + 7/8 + 5/8

6'07 2 x ( 4/2 + 2/2 + 2/4 ) + 6/2

6'21 3 x 7/4

6'28 2x7u + 2x9u

6'34 ( 7/4 + 10/4 + 4/4 + 4/2 ) ad æternam

It stopped being fun to do this after 5', but how could one leave this monumental attempt at deciphering unfinished


Edited by jayem - January 05 2018 at 14:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2018 at 13:49
^You can definitely count it out like that, I see how you got there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2018 at 09:08
I discovered these guys on Bandcamp, then was fortunate enough to see them in concert at ProgDay this past September (2017).  They are truly poly-rhythmic.  I watched in awe as the drummer was playing 4/4 time with his right hand, while playing 5/4 time with his left, and his foot was doing something else!  Go ahead, count these (simultaneous) time signatures...



Edited by wiz_d_kidd - January 13 2018 at 09:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 10:11
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

^You can definitely count it out like that, I see how you got there!

With one problem ... it is just about down right impossible to memorize all that ... and sometimes you have to learn how to feel it so you know what to play and add/subtract at the tight time.

Again, I seriously doubt that all music is so hard coded around these chords and the timing, and many times these switches and swaps are a result of feel and not necessarily composition!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 11:27
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

^You can definitely count it out like that, I see how you got there!

With one problem ... it is just about down right impossible to memorize all that ... and sometimes you have to learn how to feel it so you know what to play and add/subtract at the tight time.

Again, I seriously doubt that all music is so hard coded around these chords and the timing, and many times these switches and swaps are a result of feel and not necessarily composition!

Oh def my man! I wasn't implying intellectual rote memorization and sterilization of musical approach at all; this is just for communicating to other musicians, and a nerdy approach to digesting prog :) I don't count my riffs until after they're written, and even then I still count 'em wrong! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 15:13
There are shorter ways to note those rythm elements. F.i.

2nd section "5 x (2x6u + 2x3u) until vocals, then 3 x (2x6u + 2x3u) + 2x6u." could be noted 

"6/8 : 5 x 3m / 3 x 3m / 2m"  (m = measure)

3rd section

"3/8: 7 8 7 7" would do esp for the drummer...

The only reasons why normal players wouldn't end up memorizing it all are: it's no fun and no gun is pointed at them !! Otherwise it wouldn't be that difficult would it.

Did someone have the whole piece playing inside him and produce parts, or sing lines to others... Or were there separate vague ideas organized and put together, and the music would reveal itself progressively ? Did they count at the first rehearsals, before the music was all assimilated ? There are many possible ways for a piece like this to appear.


Edited by jayem - January 15 2018 at 16:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hieronymous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 16:03
This is a great thread - I appreciate any insight to music that I can get, and thinking broadly about odd meters is something I've done in my head for over thirty years, but haven't had many conversations about.

I saw Victor Wooten and Dennis Chambers (with Bob Franceschini) the other night - there was one section where it just felt natural to count until I figured it out - it was something like 14 broken down into 8 & 6 - I even thought about this thread at the same time! Once I had it figured out I could dance to it without counting but it helped for me to grasp the basic concept of the section. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 17:27
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

There are shorter ways to note those rythm elements. F.i.

2nd section "5 x (2x6u + 2x3u) until vocals, then 3 x (2x6u + 2x3u) + 2x6u." could be noted 

"6/8 : 5 x 3m / 3 x 3m / 2m"  (m = measure)

3rd section

"3/8: 7 8 7 7" would do esp for the drummer...

The only reasons why normal players wouldn't end up memorizing it all are: it's no fun and no gun is pointed at them !! Otherwise it wouldn't be that difficult would it.

Did someone have the whole piece playing inside him and produce parts, or sing lines to others... Or were there separate vague ideas organized and put together, and the music would reveal itself progressively ? Did they count at the first rehearsals, before the music was all assimilated ? There are many possible ways for a piece like this to appear.

^This is correct. There are SO many ways to communicate the beautiful, abstract language that is music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2018 at 08:13
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

^You can definitely count it out like that, I see how you got there!

With one problem ... it is just about down right impossible to memorize all that ... and sometimes you have to learn how to feel it so you know what to play and add/subtract at the tight time.

Again, I seriously doubt that all music is so hard coded around these chords and the timing, and many times these switches and swaps are a result of feel and not necessarily composition!

Oh def my man! I wasn't implying intellectual rote memorization and sterilization of musical approach at all; this is just for communicating to other musicians, and a nerdy approach to digesting prog :) I don't count my riffs until after they're written, and even then I still count 'em wrong! LOL

Reason why I stated it was this ... I was a part of an advanced acting class (UCSB) as a director, and the very first day the professor gives us an assignment (on a Monday), and we have to perform it on the next class (Wednesday) and if you do not have it down, you will not stay here. PERIOD.

The Messenger speech from the play about Medea, is only about 130 lines long, in a poetic form, and memorizing it is hell ... and it can be done, but no one in the whole class could "act it out", though most of them learned the lines with no character whatsoever ... us 4 directors got half way ... but we were not expected to learn the whole thing ... but to know it well. Immediately, out of the 25 actors selected for the class, 6 of them were gone!

There is, so to speak, no memorization required on a 4/4 repetitive something or other which most rock and pop music is, based on a riff, which sets the precedent for the rest of the song.

When listening to a lot of the "prog" and "progressive" musicians these days, I have a feeling that many of them are too young to be this strong, to be able to handle music that well, as it should be for someone that has been around it for 25 years ... there is a massive difference there in ability and learning.
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