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Anyone Else Enjoy Counting Time Signatures/Meter?

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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 02:58
^ Absolutely !! Just spin some GG
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frankh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 03:11
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

^SO good.

The 11/4 interlude in "Cogs in Cogs" is stuck in my head.


JPW could really funk it up. Much love for the man. That dropkickdrum...

LOL makes me make stuff up.
Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 03:23
Originally posted by Frankh Frankh wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

^SO good.

The 11/4 interlude in "Cogs in Cogs" is stuck in my head.
 

JPW could really funk it up. Much love for the man. That dropkickdrum...

LOL makes me make stuff up.

Dude, yes lol. The faces he makes live are hilarious, too! Dropkick drum is the PERFECT term for that sound!

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

^ Absolutely !! Just spin some GG  

Did you just guess my favorite band? LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ALotOfBottle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:06
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

^Both great replies and recommendations! I too have OCD and that might add to my enjoyment Cool.

I also have OCD and like hell I wish counting time signatures was one of my syndromes. LOL

But, I do count time signatures, too. Love the 17/8 section on the solo of Egg's "Wring Out the Ground" and Hatfield and the North's "Gigantic Land Crabs in Earth Takeover Bid" (it's the same pattern/theme).

From 2:52:


And I've always had gigantic difficulty trying to make out the shifting time signatures in the opening of Egg's "Long Piece No. 3." Crazy stuff.


Categories strain, crack and sometimes break, under their burden - step out of the space provided.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:14
Originally posted by ALotOfBottle ALotOfBottle wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

^Both great replies and recommendations! I too have OCD and that might add to my enjoyment Cool.

I also have OCD and like hell I wish counting time signatures was one of my syndromes. LOL

But, I do count time signatures, too. Love the 17/8 section on the solo of Egg's "Wring Out the Ground" and Hatfield and the North's "Gigantic Land Crabs in Earth Takeover Bid" (it's the same pattern/theme).

From 2:52:


And I've always had gigantic difficulty trying to make out the shifting time signatures in the opening of Egg's "Long Piece No. 3." Crazy stuff. 



Killer examples, and one I've yet to hear! Thank you!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:21
one song i like whom i feel does impressive things in odd time is Gentle Giant somg Way of Life, but i dont know what timebsignatures its in.

ai also like the subtle manipulasion on Genesis track In To Deep probably no oddttime but it gott a cool syncopation

Edited by Icarium - December 30 2017 at 04:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:30
Dang, I can’t ‘cut and paste’ but a bizarre little song by DEVO, called ‘Blockhead’, is in a clever 11/8, but it sounds so ‘jagged’ in a very amusing way !!

Edited by Tom Ozric - December 30 2017 at 04:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 04:50
Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

one song i like whom i feel does impressive things in odd time is Gentle Giant somg Way of Life, but i dont know what timebsignatures its in.

ai also like the subtle manipulasion on Genesis track In To Deep probably no oddttime but it gott a cool syncopation

I think the opening keys to Way of Life are in 13/4, and the bass madness going on underneath is something like 21/4, lol.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 07:49
but what time sig are those wierd beaks between the main riffs. those seem almost bulgarian folk like in mood
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 08:32
When I get a new album, the first few listens are dedicated to analyzing orchestration, instrumentation, arrangements, etc. The meter part is also one of them, when I focus on the meters, and how they combine in the songs. Not that I count them really, but mainly I like to listen how they flow into each other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 08:37
I have tried to count time signature changes but I really don't  know what I'm doing. I just don't get it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 11:48
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I have tried to count time signature changes but I really don't  know what I'm doing. I just don't get it. 

Do you understand quarter notes, eighth notes, sixteenth notes?

Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

but what time sig are those wierd beaks between the main riffs. those seem almost bulgarian folk like in mood

Let's analyze the song, shall we? Tongue



Might not be 100% accurate doing this rather quickly on the spot:
Violin 0:00 - 00:10  8/4
Violin fill after the 00:10 mark 19/4 (anywhere between 18-21/4 honestly hard to tell)
Keyboard melody 00:37 14/4
Vocals 00:51 13/4, 12/4, 12/4, 8/4
Guitar 01:07 9/4, 8/4, 9/4
Keys 01:17 17/4, 12/4
Guitar/Violin 01:46 10/4
Acoustic guitar fill 01:53 8/4
Violin madness 01:57 17/4?
Sax fill 02:20 16/4?
Vocals "Standing on the ice believing who I'm searching for/Close your cloud eyes and chase all that you did before 13/4
Vocals - "Living in a glass house shielding all that's mean for me..." 13/4
Guitar Fill/Transition 4:15 - 5/4
GROOVE RIFF! 04:16 - 11/4, 12/4, 12/4, 5/4
Vocals - 13/4, 8/4
Kerry's interlude - 11/4
Blue Grass/Folk Guitar Break - 7/4?
Groove riff/outro - 11/4, 12/4, etc.


Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - December 30 2017 at 11:49

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2017 at 13:32
^ See, it’s as easy as Rocket Science
Now let’s see what Meshuggah is doing ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2017 at 02:18
^Hey, it's actually not that hard! If you can count, you can sort of the time signatures! My musical background gives me a bit of an advantage, but not by much TBH!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hieronymous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2018 at 19:06

Originally posted by Frenetic
Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by hieronymous hieronymous wrote:

I love odd time signatures - probably ever since listening to Rush and Yes when I was in high school learning bass guitar in the '80s. 

This is one of my current odd-time favorites, "Answers? Questions! Questions? Answers!" by Focus from Focus 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsqFEI_Ulhs

I love playing along with it - I actually learned it without counting, the opening riff I would say is in 9/8, then goes into 4/4, switching back and forth between the two sections, then it goes off into something else! This is such a fantastic album, improvisational rock at its finest if you ask me.  

I was very fortunate to see John McLaughlin & Jimmy Herring on the Meeting of the Spirits tour a few weeks ago - during one of the insane guitar & drum sections, Gary Husband (on keys but also an astounding drummer) clapped along for the entire solo - it was really cool, I videotaped it so that I could remember it later! It's in 7, so he's clapping on the 1st, 3rd, and 5th & 6th beats. If I don't clap along I get lost and just enjoy the sensation of the music, but I think that clapping (as opposed to counting?) definitely is an enjoyable component of listening. 

Excellent! I myself am a bass player, so perhaps we're a bit biased with our counting :P Great link and post, brother!

Aha, a fellow bassist – I think that musicians will often have a variety of ways of thinking about and playing odd times – you can’t just let go and relax without practice – or at least I definitely need practice! I remember jamming something in 7 with my drummer but when I did a fill I mis-counted – I had taped it so I know it was me, can’t blame the drummer!

I thought of a couple more cool ones:

Gong – “The Isle of Forever” from You


It’s a cool progression where they jam on a groove in 4/4 (well, I’ll call it 8), then move it up a minor third, then move it up a minor third again, then back to the original key but this time in 7. They go through the harmonic progression again, then it’s 6! Then back to 8 – and then they actually go to 7 again. They abbreviate the 6, then go into the next song. All with fantastic soloing by sax & keyboards. (I may not have the chords right, I’m going partly on memory)

The other one is Space is the Place by Sun Ra – the studio version from the Impulse album of the same name.


The vocal melody is in 4, but the line that opens up the piece is in 5 – it starts on a sax and is taken up by various other instruments throughout. You can try and count along with the 5 line while listening to the rest of the piece – I just played along with it for 20 minutes – I couldn’t keep the line just going like they do – the liner notes say the legendary saxophonist Pat Patrick is playing the electric bass on this – insane!

I think ideally I don’t count while I’m playing, I tend to feel it. But I’m basically a rock bassist – I listen to jazz but my harmonic knowledge is limited. It’s nice to relax and just listen, but there are times where you realize you’ve lost count! Actually, that happens while playing sometimes – if everyone is listening you can latch on to a pulse and get back to safety!



Edited by hieronymous - January 01 2018 at 19:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2018 at 02:10
Originally posted by hieronymous hieronymous wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by hieronymous hieronymous wrote:

I love odd time signatures - probably ever since listening to Rush and Yes when I was in high school learning bass guitar in the '80s. 

This is one of my current odd-time favorites, "Answers? Questions! Questions? Answers!" by Focus from Focus 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsqFEI_Ulhs

I love playing along with it - I actually learned it without counting, the opening riff I would say is in 9/8, then goes into 4/4, switching back and forth between the two sections, then it goes off into something else! This is such a fantastic album, improvisational rock at its finest if you ask me.  

I was very fortunate to see John McLaughlin & Jimmy Herring on the Meeting of the Spirits tour a few weeks ago - during one of the insane guitar & drum sections, Gary Husband (on keys but also an astounding drummer) clapped along for the entire solo - it was really cool, I videotaped it so that I could remember it later! It's in 7, so he's clapping on the 1st, 3rd, and 5th & 6th beats. If I don't clap along I get lost and just enjoy the sensation of the music, but I think that clapping (as opposed to counting?) definitely is an enjoyable component of listening. 

Excellent! I myself am a bass player, so perhaps we're a bit biased with our counting :P Great link and post, brother!

Aha, a fellow bassist – I think that musicians will often have a variety of ways of thinking about and playing odd times – you can’t just let go and relax without practice – or at least I definitely need practice! I remember jamming something in 7 with my drummer but when I did a fill I mis-counted – I had taped it so I know it was me, can’t blame the drummer!

I thought of a couple more cool ones:

Gong – “The Isle of Forever” from You


It’s a cool progression where they jam on a groove in 4/4 (well, I’ll call it 8), then move it up a minor third, then move it up a minor third again, then back to the original key but this time in 7. They go through the harmonic progression again, then it’s 6! Then back to 8 – and then they actually go to 7 again. They abbreviate the 6, then go into the next song. All with fantastic soloing by sax & keyboards. (I may not have the chords right, I’m going partly on memory)

The other one is Space is the Place by Sun Ra – the studio version from the Impulse album of the same name.


The vocal melody is in 4, but the line that opens up the piece is in 5 – it starts on a sax and is taken up by various other instruments throughout. You can try and count along with the 5 line while listening to the rest of the piece – I just played along with it for 20 minutes – I couldn’t keep the line just going like they do – the liner notes say the legendary saxophonist Pat Patrick is playing the electric bass on this – insane!

I think ideally I don’t count while I’m playing, I tend to feel it. But I’m basically a rock bassist – I listen to jazz but my harmonic knowledge is limited. It’s nice to relax and just listen, but there are times where you realize you’ve lost count! Actually, that happens while playing sometimes – if everyone is listening you can latch on to a pulse and get back to safety!


Yeah man, your post nails it! Great links and analysis. Thank you for taking the time to share this! Tongue

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2018 at 04:04
Count out the Slayer tune ‘Killing Fields’. A very wacky 5/4 riff...........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2018 at 05:30
Or anything/everything on Pestilence's SPHERES record.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hieronymous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2018 at 19:50
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

A good album for anyone who likes odd meters is Khan's only album "Space Shanty". Besides the "usual" meters (4/4, 3/4, 6/8) you find 5/4, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8 and even 13/8 on it.

This is a great example too - I have this on a Japanese CD rerelease but haven't listened in a long time - it's awesome! Nostalgic and new at the same time - definitely a keeper, though I usually think of Fish Rising or Gong's You if Steve Hillage pops to mind. But there's stuff on here that sounds like Fish Rising, but I actually remember it from listening to this years ago, there's some really good stuff here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2018 at 17:37
I swear there are parts on Gentle Giant Acquiring The Taste that are in 19+/4.

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