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How would you improve prog?

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Master of Time View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Master of Time Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2018 at 02:46
I think prog could use more diversity. Different experiences and cultures bring in more influences and different approaches. Letís face it, prog is still largely white guys, I think more diversity would breathe some life into the prog scene.

Edited by Master of Time - January 13 2018 at 02:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoeDent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2018 at 07:23
I'd improve it by making the fans less snobbish and dismissive about pop music. And less snobbish about artists who manage to successfully strike a chord with people. Just less snobbish in general.

Also, I'd make The Astonishing get a better reception than it does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2018 at 08:55
I'd put more emphasis on the music, instrumentation, composition, and arrangements -- and less on the vocals.  It seems that anyone who can open their mouths thinks they can sing.  If you wanna sing, make sure you have something interesting to say, and make sure your vocals are fully integrated with the instrumentation (as if it's another instrument), and not just a bunch of odd-ball notes and unnecessary runs.  My rule of thumb for any singer is to replace your exact vocal performance, note for note, including all the unnecessary runs, with keyboard, violin, or some other instrument and see how it sounds with the rest of the band.  If it doesn't sound right, you ain't singing right!  Good prog doesn't need vocals.  It should earn it's place in the band.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2018 at 09:07
Certainly we need more stritch, manzello and flarinet. I personally think we also need more contrabass sarrusophone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigbobby10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2018 at 12:17
Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

Originally posted by Bigbobby10 Bigbobby10 wrote:

I want to have a band that only uses Mellotrons (must have at least 5 members)



In Morte Macabre all four members played Mellotron. Though some also played guitars/bass/drums, so not the purist article you describe.

Ill have to check them out, thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2018 at 12:46
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

I'd put more emphasis on the music, instrumentation, composition, and arrangements -- and less on the vocals.  It seems that anyone who can open their mouths thinks they can sing.  If you wanna sing, make sure you have something interesting to say, and make sure your vocals are fully integrated with the instrumentation (as if it's another instrument), and not just a bunch of odd-ball notes and unnecessary runs.  My rule of thumb for any singer is to replace your exact vocal performance, note for note, including all the unnecessary runs, with keyboard, violin, or some other instrument and see how it sounds with the rest of the band.  If it doesn't sound right, you ain't singing right!  Good prog doesn't need vocals.  It should earn it's place in the band.

This is something I've thought about a lot; vocals get all the attention when it comes to listeners. I feel like the rest of the band gets robbed because of this, honestly. They take all this time and effort to construct these complex, beautiful passages and people will turn it off if they don't like the pitch/tone of the person's voice. It's make or break and it's really too bad. So many people dismiss YES because of Jon Anderson's voice. What a shame!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReactioninG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2018 at 20:23
I wish some of the new bands actually sounded like old prog... I don't like metal either, I don't care if its hyphenated with prog in front. I wish some of the new bands had some passion and a message. I want melodic, brooding stuff with straightforward vocals and good lyrics. Pink Floyd 2.0, where art thou? And the Genesis imitators don't sound like Genesis, and the Yes imitators don't sound like Yes. Bah.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2018 at 06:56
Originally posted by ReactioninG ReactioninG wrote:

I wish some of the new bands actually sounded like old prog.
 
Why? Wasn't there enough prog produced during the 70s? I actually prefer music to sound original. Thus, to improve prog, I would suggest that artists try to find new ways to convey the essence of prog, rather than try to sound like old prog. However, I must say that I'm quite impressed with the amount of great prog being produced in the 21st century.
 
 
 
I was thinking about thinking but it really didn't get me very far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 10:04
Originally posted by Master of Time Master of Time wrote:

I think prog could use more diversity. Different experiences and cultures bring in more influences and different approaches. Letís face it, prog is still largely white guys, I think more diversity would breathe some life into the prog scene.

There is plenty of that all over the world, specially with cultural influences ... however, they are not considered "progressive" by the standards that are defined in this board, and the discussion of lesser bands here, being a database, is forever banned to the last item listed amidst 10K entries ... and this makes a lot of people think that it is not worth the discussion, when the lack of a more open ability to listen to different things are the reason why a lot of folks do not know more music.

It is always one of the weirdest things ... you get folks posting from Chile, Brazil, South Africa and new Zealand, and their countries do not have anything "progressive" ... and they are posting about Genesis, and ELP and this and that ... and it is like they can not recognize the "progressive" or "prog" idiom, if their life depended on it.

It is down right scary ... just like those WD stories ... cardboard versions of old stories from around the world, and you believe them as original and new, because of the colorful presentation ... and other countries in this world are no less affected by it than we are ... !!!

You can't improve "prog"!

Now I ask you ... how do you improve "Stravinsky"? Or "Beethoven"? 

And all of a sudden the question comes off as silly, and inappropriate within the history of music and its creativity designs ... we just refuse to CREDIT it for its abilities and can only thing of COPIES ... and never something else original and creative.

Let me ask you something ... how to improve "you" and your question?

Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 11:37
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Master of Time Master of Time wrote:

I think prog could use more diversity. Different experiences and cultures bring in more influences and different approaches. Letís face it, prog is still largely white guys, I think more diversity would breathe some life into the prog scene.

There is plenty of that all over the world, specially with cultural influences ... however, they are not considered "progressive" by the standards that are defined in this board, and the discussion of lesser bands here, being a database, is forever banned to the last item listed amidst 10K entries ... and this makes a lot of people think that it is not worth the discussion, when the lack of a more open ability to listen to different things are the reason why a lot of folks do not know more music.

It is always one of the weirdest things ... you get folks posting from Chile, Brazil, South Africa and new Zealand, and their countries do not have anything "progressive" ... and they are posting about Genesis, and ELP and this and that ... and it is like they can not recognize the "progressive" or "prog" idiom, if their life depended on it.

It is down right scary ... just like those WD stories ... cardboard versions of old stories from around the world, and you believe them as original and new, because of the colorful presentation ... and other countries in this world are no less affected by it than we are ... !!!

You can't improve "prog"!

Now I ask you ... how do you improve "Stravinsky"? Or "Beethoven"? 

And all of a sudden the question comes off as silly, and inappropriate within the history of music and its creativity designs ... we just refuse to CREDIT it for its abilities and can only thing of COPIES ... and never something else original and creative.

Let me ask you something ... how to improve "you" and your question?

Big smile

You know something? You're alright, Moshkito Smile.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 12:31
Originally posted by Master of Time Master of Time wrote:

I think prog could use more diversity. Different experiences and cultures bring in more influences and different approaches. Letís face it, prog is still largely white guys, I think more diversity would breathe some life into the prog scene.

I agree!  I'd like to see more female vocalists up front, vs. a lot of white guys, struggling to hit the high notes. 

James LaBrie, Benoit David, and John Davison all come to mind right away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 12:58
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Master of Time Master of Time wrote:

I think prog could use more diversity. Different experiences and cultures bring in more influences and different approaches. Letís face it, prog is still largely white guys, I think more diversity would breathe some life into the prog scene.

There is plenty of that all over the world, specially with cultural influences ... however, they are not considered "progressive" by the standards that are defined in this board, and the discussion of lesser bands here, being a database, is forever banned to the last item listed amidst 10K entries ... and this makes a lot of people think that it is not worth the discussion, when the lack of a more open ability to listen to different things are the reason why a lot of folks do not know more music.

It is always one of the weirdest things ... you get folks posting from Chile, Brazil, South Africa and new Zealand, and their countries do not have anything "progressive" ... and they are posting about Genesis, and ELP and this and that ... and it is like they can not recognize the "progressive" or "prog" idiom, if their life depended on it.

It is down right scary ... just like those WD stories ... cardboard versions of old stories from around the world, and you believe them as original and new, because of the colorful presentation ... and other countries in this world are no less affected by it than we are ... !!!

You can't improve "prog"!

Now I ask you ... how do you improve "Stravinsky"? Or "Beethoven"?†

And all of a sudden the question comes off as silly, and inappropriate within the history of music and its creativity designs ... we just refuse to CREDIT it for its abilities and can only thing of COPIES ... and never something else original and creative.

Let me ask you something ... how to improve "you" and your question?

Big smile


You know something? You're alright, Moshkito†Smile.

Alright? He may have a point and I largely sympathise with it, but he effectively (as per usual) takes fellow PA members hostage whilst making it. Now I do know several posters from South America, New Zealand, Japan, Holland etc etc who all happen to know and adore their own musical produce and yes quite often they will talk about this in the open forum...along with a chat or two about ELP and Genesis.
Then again we've been over this so many times before with Mosh, so I guess there is no way of getting through to him. Over the last 8 years or so I've seen him make this exact same post in oh so many different layouts, and they all have a tendency to make grand sweeping generalisations about how low brow his fellow PA members are....yet mostly he is making false claims about people he doesn't know. I certainly don't know where he gets his research from, because it sure as hell isn't the threads I read.


Edited by Guldbamsen - January 15 2018 at 13:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 13:24
Really....?  It doesn't need improving.....period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Master of Time Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 18:58
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Master of Time Master of Time wrote:

I think prog could use more diversity. Different experiences and cultures bring in more influences and different approaches. Letís face it, prog is still largely white guys, I think more diversity would breathe some life into the prog scene.

There is plenty of that all over the world, specially with cultural influences ... however, they are not considered "progressive" by the standards that are defined in this board, and the discussion of lesser bands here, being a database, is forever banned to the last item listed amidst 10K entries ... and this makes a lot of people think that it is not worth the discussion, when the lack of a more open ability to listen to different things are the reason why a lot of folks do not know more music.

It is always one of the weirdest things ... you get folks posting from Chile, Brazil, South Africa and new Zealand, and their countries do not have anything "progressive" ... and they are posting about Genesis, and ELP and this and that ... and it is like they can not recognize the "progressive" or "prog" idiom, if their life depended on it.

It is down right scary ... just like those WD stories ... cardboard versions of old stories from around the world, and you believe them as original and new, because of the colorful presentation ... and other countries in this world are no less affected by it than we are ... !!!

You can't improve "prog"!

Now I ask you ... how do you improve "Stravinsky"? Or "Beethoven"? 

And all of a sudden the question comes off as silly, and inappropriate within the history of music and its creativity designs ... we just refuse to CREDIT it for its abilities and can only thing of COPIES ... and never something else original and creative.

Let me ask you something ... how to improve "you" and your question?

Big smile
First let me apologize right off the top here and say that I didn't 100% understand everything you said just in regards to phrasing and such, and that's my bad (also I don't know what you're referring to when you say WD stories), and also, it's not clear in all of it whether you're responding to me or the OP, especially with this sentence in particular, "Let me ask you something ... how to improve "you" and your question?" because I didn't ask a question, I just gave my two cents about the original question, but I'll address one specific point you made.

You brought up the idea of improving Stravinsky and Beethoven and used it to call this question inappropriate, but I find the analogy inappropriate. For one, I'm sure if you asked their contemporaries at the time they would have opinions on how they could improve, whether they would be right or not is another question but they would have their opinions. Also we're not talking about improving specific artists from the past, we're talking about improving the current prog scene as a whole (at least that was my impression). I'm sure there are many ways in which you could improve the contemporary classical music scene.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Master of Time Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2018 at 21:34
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Master of Time Master of Time wrote:

I think prog could use more diversity. Different experiences and cultures bring in more influences and different approaches. Letís face it, prog is still largely white guys, I think more diversity would breathe some life into the prog scene.

I agree!  I'd like to see more female vocalists up front, vs. a lot of white guys, struggling to hit the high notes. 

James LaBrie, Benoit David, and John Davison all come to mind right away.
I agree, though I'd like to see more women in on instruments as well. 90% of the time when I do find prog bands with women it is as the vocalist. Just all around in all positions I think more diversity in the genre would produce some interesting material.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2018 at 06:49
I'd give it a better taste, a crunchier texture, and add some whole grain options.

Seriously, what a question! You might well talk of "improving" an individual song, album, or even band (though the notion of "improving" art is very subjective), but to think of making some single change to the whole, vast, diverse (largely subjective) genre (that is not a single, definable genre) is ridiculous and smacks of either arrogance, or an inability to be satisfied with what you have.

Not to get too heavy on you.

Edited by Peter - January 16 2018 at 06:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2018 at 07:34
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Drop the song length down to 2:30 and make it danceable. Some good looking singers and musicians might help as well.

You think that might bring some more girls and groupies around?

And I'm not talking about the ones that hand around YES shows these days ... goodness gracious ... get me some dope and get me outta here!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2018 at 07:39
Originally posted by Bigbobby10 Bigbobby10 wrote:

I want to have a band that only uses Mellotrons (must have at least 5 members)



SEVENTH WAVE was in LA with 7 keyboard members ... and I had exams to deal with at UCSB and couldn't go! 

I regret that badly and would love to hear a bootleg of that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2018 at 08:00
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Now I ask you ... how do you improve "Stravinsky"? Or "Beethoven"? 

Drum machines, kazoos, airplane propellers, and maybe a Minimoog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2018 at 08:01
Originally posted by Master of Time Master of Time wrote:

...
You brought up the idea of improving Stravinsky and Beethoven and used it to call this question inappropriate, but I find the analogy inappropriate.

Actually your comment is more of a copout than anything else.

IF you do not like something, get yourself an instrument, and do it yourself, but you have no right to pontificate that others are not correct and need to do "better". You sound like the church already ... and its "favorites", and of course, as has been the history of it, many musicians and artists died because of these ideas ... so you want to continue the evil?

Originally posted by Master of Time Master of Time wrote:

For one, I'm sure if you asked their contemporaries at the time they would have opinions on how they could improve, whether they would be right or not is another question but they would have their opinions.
...

You can not "improve" someone else ... you can give them a haircut, and a little make up ... but, normally, the same person is still there and will continue to be there ... same arms, legs, head, face ... etc ... and to suggest that you can change them is not a good thing to do.

The arts, specially, are full of histories of folks fighting for their life and their moments and a chance to be heard and seen ... and now, you stand here, like a statue, saying that they are not good enough ... and you are not even an "empresario" that makes some folks think they can get something out of life.

My comments, unlike G's thoughts, are about bringing a newer and better understanding and appreciation for the arts, not just music, and sadly, a lot of these comments become personal, rather than taken with the proper salt and sugar they deserve. 

While PA has been very good in many ways, my thoughts still are that it could improve, and the folks that are "admins" could help a lot more with the understanding and appreciation, than they do, which is to make comments that actually take away from some good points on the discussion ... but no ... many times they go supporting their top ten designs with a database ... which can be adjusted to be more flexible and valuable than just a simple number crunching exercise that is not even done by people, but by a simple script and design.

You want to improve something? A statue, a composition, a novel? 

WRITE YOUR OWN! COMPOSE YOUR OWN! CREATE YOUR OWN STATUE ... and then see if you are strong enough to stand up to all this absolutely bizarre comments ... ohhh Venus de Milo is missing a ..... and I can hear the comments on Michelangelo's men ... they should be better endowed to match the modern man!

Btw, WD is ... Walt Disney!


Edited by moshkito - January 16 2018 at 08:04
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