Genre placements that nobody else can understand

...King Crimson as classical music

Edited by condor - January 18 2018 at 02:30

The only thing I'm having a hard time understanding is this thread...?

condor wrote: songs like Starless are the epitome of classical music's philosophy.

chopper wrote: condor wrote: songs like Starless are the epitome of classical music's philosophy.   Please explain why, if you ever look at this thread again.

Blacksword wrote: condor wrote: chopper wrote: condor wrote: songs like Starless are the epitome of classical music's philosophy.   Please explain why, if you ever look at this thread again. From Eric Tamm's book on Fripp:                                  <div ="page" title="Page 78">                <div ="layoutArea">                     <div ="column">                           <span style="font-size: 12.000000pt; font-family: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT'">“Starless” as a whole can be seen as a carefully graded swell of energy: by the end of the instrumental crescendo, things have reached such a desperate peak that you think there’s nowhere else to go – but as happens so often in Beethoven codas, for instance, you are seized at that peak moment and hurtled into hyperspace. The recapitulation integrates and transforms the materials of the exposition and the crescendo, forcibly kicking them onto an entirely new level of intensity by means of dynamics, tempo, and orchestration. </span>                                                 An interesting and empassioned take on Starless, but why is it the 'epitome of classical music's philosophy'? A comparison to Beethoven doesn't really equate to that. He was one of hundreds of diverse composers over several centuries to the present day.

Inspired by classical music, yes but then a lot of prog is, but it isn't actually classical music.

SteveG wrote: One of the genres, out of many, that KC founded was symphonic prog with songs like "Epitaph" and "In The Court Of the Crimson King." If that's the question your attempting to ask, I don't believe that anyone with half his brains intact would argue against it.

I certainly can't understand why anyone would place Crimson in progressive rock. It's clearly proto-hip hop with vaporwave written all over it

I could be off-base, but to me King Crimson in a sense comes closer to the spirit of classic music composition than Gentle Giant (say with Islands). Partially it depends upon what one means by classical music -- if one is using it as a synonym for Western art music or referring to the classic period exemplified by the likes of Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven. Gentle Giant seems very inspired by Baroque and Medieval art music. For instance, the use of counterpoint which is very Baroque and became less fashionable with classical era composers that favoured more melodious music (music you could hum along to), simpler harmonies, less virtuosity (amateur musicians could often play the music and would buy the sheet music), more linear structurally, and more fluidic structures. I expect that you just mean art music. In a loose and glib way, Classical period music is to Baroque what Punk is to Prog. Simplicity is a relative term, and of course classical music composers were making more complex than most music, but the music is less focussed on complex harmonies, having great contrasts in dynamics and sudden changes in sound , and is less about creating dramatic music with amazing performances than Baroque. It's subtler in general, but still more complex than pre-Baroque music. The other thing about Baroque is that it was very inspired by science and mathematics, yet interestingly still commonly religious partially as the Church were often patrons.

While, to use the broad term for classic music (i.e. European art music) that spans different music eras, many prog bands were very inspired by composers from these traditions, and some works could be considered classical in form. Plenty of bands lifted from, and adapted classical music, and some other created original music that could be considered classical in this sense.

Incidentally, I was in conversation with the conductor of a symphony orchestra and I was using the term Western Art music, and he said, just use the common parlance and call it all classical, otherwise it can seem a bit pretentious.

One thing with art music is the formalistic aspect.   There is expectation that the music will be quite advanced in its structures, and that music theory is understood by the composers and that takes that into consideration when creating the music, but also it is based on a written music tradition based on a type of music notation. Where the likes of King Crimson don't sound classical to me it that it seems to draw more on improvisation of the musicians rather than writing a score and having them perform it (although musicians did improvise based on scores, so it's not like one couldn't take a jazzy attitude to the music). Also, King Crimson does not always sound reserved enough to me from a "philosophical" viewpoint. Classical era composers such as Beethoven, while being able to convey a wide range of emotions in the music, still kept the music more "polite" in a sense -- there's sometimes more of a sense of chaos in the musical conversation than I would expect with classical music.

One of the rock works, which I still regret is not in PA, that I think comes close is William Sheller's Lux Aeterna.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYAiibLnnXE

I recall an interview with a classical trained musician with U Totem saying that she liked being a part of the group because there was more freedom than performing classical music. U Totem, Aranis, and various ones in RIO/Avant Prog I think bring more of an art music attitude to composition and performance than in other categories, but then may do come from the conservatories and trained in classical music.

Blacksword wrote: They are a rock band. No more complicated than that.

Shockingly, this is correct.