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noni View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 17 2018 at 17:45
This is one area  that confuses me.  Symphonic, Crossover, Jazz, Folk and Neo,  I understand ....Smile

But others, Krautrock, Canterbury and Rock Progressivo Italiano.  Confuse me.  What type of music do they perform and sound like?...   Firstly Krautrock coming from Germany, mostly yes.  Canterbury, UK.  Why are  these 2 genres coming from other countries?.   Plus,  why Italian music has it's own genre? and no actual label,  though some Italian  bands do.  Yes, I'm confused... Confused

While we are blessed with Youtube, Soundcloud and Bandcamp to listen to bands.    Just leaves me perplexed!...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2018 at 18:47
Canterbury bands from other countries (like Japan's Ain Soph) are building on the sound cultivated by the pioneers. That goes for any genre/style.

You have Berlin School composed/played by American musicians (Dweller at the Threshold, van Zyl, Nightcrawlers), and Zeuhl played by Japanese musicians (Ruins, Koenji Hyakkei), and so on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2018 at 19:10
Krautrock always confused the hell out of me, too. Why is that label necessary, beyond describing the area those bands are from? We don't say UK prog...?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pigwheeler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2018 at 21:40
Genre names exist for the purpose to identify with which (and which not) fanbases you will be able to get laid by
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 02:20
So how would you like your answer today? The same as last time or preferably with some new spins?
I've tried a number of different tactics yet you keep coming back with the same questions. I know Logan has tried to answer you as well...more than once too.

Please go and read the individual genre pages. All you need to know is right there (I've told you this before). Then go listen to some of the bands listed in the genre. If it still doesn't make sense to you, then please just leave it be.
There are plenty of stuff that I don't personally get, yet I don't bemoan the fact that I don't understand string theory to its fullest...but I accept that and leave it be. Maybe you should do the same with these matters, because lord knows we've tried.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 02:38
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

So how would you like your answer today? The same as last time or preferably with some new spins?
I've tried a number of different tactics yet you keep coming back with the same questions. I know Logan has tried to answer you as well...more than once too.

Please go and read the individual genre pages. All you need to know is right there (I've told you this before). Then go listen to some of the bands listed in the genre. If it still doesn't make sense to you, then please just leave it be.
There are plenty of stuff that I don't personally get, yet I don't bemoan the fact that I don't understand string theory to its fullest...but I accept that and leave it be. Maybe you should do the same with these matters, because lord knows we've tried.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 05:02
I may have come off a little snippy before, but this thread is almost an exact replica of noni's thread from half a year ago.

Also: why does it matter? I mean, most of these genres consist of music you don't seem interested in to begin with. Personally I would find it extremely difficult to learn something about something that I am not interested in.
We are many that find these monikers helpful in that they make finding new stuff that much easier. If the boxes don't do that for you, then merely scrap them. We all do this to a certain extent. There are litterally thousands of genres out there that don't mean jack to me. I certainly won't admit to understanding them. Aggrotech, deep filthstep, ebm, ninja and shimmer pop anyone?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 06:24
snippy?  I think you were downright polite compared to some might have been.. like those that spent countless hours on this stuff....after all the time we spent and all the care invested on those genre definitions..

are you stupid man... just f**kING READ THEM haha... they do make sense afterall.... they explain what the genre is about.  Jeeze...
I find your lack of Bassoon disturbing.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 07:27
Genres are an illusion.  Krautrock, Canterbury and Rock Progressivo Italiano doubly so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 07:31
To me there still is great music, good music & bad music. Most of the music is bad music, but of course also a lot of good music. Great is the rarest. Never cared about the genres.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 10:36
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Krautrock always confused the hell out of me, too. Why is that label necessary, beyond describing the area those bands are from? We don't say UK prog...?

Hi,

In this particular case, it is simply a way of describing where it comes from ... and while I do not think it is specially funny to name it that, it is very specific to what kind of music it was ... mostly experimental and improvisational, with outstanding moments. It is "progressive" specifically in its 'style" of improvisation which is not necessarily based on a riff, which is usually the case in most bands that try improvisations, and then come back to the original theme. In "krautrock", rarely does the same theme come back, and the music continues on.

The problem with listening to something that keeps on moving and developing, is that it aleinates most listeners, specially today, expecting a band to sound the same over and over again with just different lyrics, and this is not something that you will find in "krautrock" in its early days, probably all the way to 1974 or 1975, when the record companies started controlling things again, and the free form music began disappearing bit by bit. But the complete freedom that is apparent (might not be so to the musicians themselves, but IS for us), in some of the early things (Guru Guru early albums, Amon Duul 2 up until the first half of "Vive La Trance", Can all the way to "Landed", not to mention the ways that folks from Kraftwerk/Neu did their thing, which to you and I (TODAY) sounds more like just turning a knob slowly, however we should not misjudge the sound itself and how it can take us away ... adding something to "music" that was not exactly there before!

Music, today, specially some bands trying to do "krautrock" are not specially tuned to improvisation in a free form manner, complete with lawn mowers, vacuum cleaners, kazoos and elephants and clowns ... so to speak ... and they tend to depend on signals to "return" to a certain point in the piece they are doing ... doesn't make it bad at all ... it's just a bit on the composed side, compared to the original "krautrock", whose really early example, was the atmosphere for the very early Amon Duul albums (before it split into AD2), which was just a drum circle (more or less) by anyone in the commune. This is not quite visible in some of the other bands, although one could think that the early Ash Ra Tempel and possibly even Popol Vuh had a bit of this freedom, and as manuel Gottsching specified ... he's a live performer, and almost all of the material in Ash Ra Tempel, Cosmic Couriers had that "live" feeling in it, which the majority of "krautrock" these days is missing altogether.

One other thing, and is specially valuable in describing all this ... Can's Tago Mago, according to Holger Czukay's notes on the website for a long time, were taken haphazard from 20 hours worth of recordings of various experiments and open rehearsals ... and how it was put together might not sound exactly clear to us, in the two long cuts, but the shorter cuts obvisouly shows that now and then they came together very nicely and created some incredible pieces in the middle of these improvisations.

My take, and it is a comparison with my theater background, is that the folks today, do not really know/understand what it means to "improvise", and most of what they do is specualte how this or that works on their guitar, and many of them can not get away/out of their instrument, in order to come up with something else, be it a sound effect or just a peculiar weird bit that came out of something or other, that might not be exactly "musical" in its nature, but it fits nicely into the workings of the piece in question.
FAUST, is the harder one to explain and work with, but if anything, you know that there is a satirical edge in it that makes fun of "music" within its composed state, in my estimation.

But for all ideas and thoughts about "improvisation", no one has ever done anything as wild and experimental as these folks have and got it recorded ... at a time when it was possible to do so, and has not been since. Today, it figures to be easier to do so, but the mental state and preparation for doing it is bound too hard on musical elements, and the idea behind "krautrock" was to let go of the musical elements, is how I think about it!

... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ForestFriend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 11:41
I think Krautrock and Canterbury make a bit of sense because they refer to specific stylistic characteristics that originate from a certain area and a band needs not to be from Germany or Canterbury to fall under that category, but RPI is a bit more confusing. Most RPI bands I've heard sound like they'd fit just fine under symphonic or eclectic prog, and there are Italian bands under those labels (mostly newer). I know there's a few 70s Italian bands under other labels (e.g., Picchio Dal Pozzo under Canterbury, which I think is quite suitable), but it seems like any 70s symph or eclectic prog band from Italy just gets put under RPI.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 12:19
you wouldn't be the first to not 'get' RPI...  you missed unless you were a lurker of surpassing memory the battle that waged between the forces of good and evil. Though if my memory serves unlike some of the more bloody battles I've been involved with, that one stayed mostly in the collab zone.  Anyhow.. suffice to say.. not everyone agreed with the creation of it.  

From the early days of the site Forestfriend I was one of the primary experts and go to people on Italian prog. One thing me and my team noticed was people simply didn't give a sh*t about the stylistic differences between many of the Italian bands.  Being introduced to one invariably led to finding another.. and another .. and another.. and it really didn't make a damn bit of difference.. the stylistic differences between them which in many cases were often window dressing as we explained in the RPI definition.  The same stew of musical influences made all of them. Just some highlighted some aspects more than others might have.

The thing to take from what the site has.. is the intent was NEVER to classify bands as x, y or z.  What we were doing as genre team members was creating nice outlets for the dirty unwashed masses, the general forumites, the prog explorers so they easily find music they like.  RPI is IMO the fullest realizatin of the real purpose of our work, not to go off on ego trip and pound round bands into square holes.. but to facilitate exploration and discovery by those who use the site.
I find your lack of Bassoon disturbing.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 12:22
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Krautrock always confused the hell out of me, too. Why is that label necessary, beyond describing the area those bands are from? We don't say UK prog...?

Hi,

In this particular case, it is simply a way of describing where it comes from ... and while I do not think it is specially funny to name it that, it is very specific to what kind of music it was ... mostly experimental and improvisational, with outstanding moments. It is "progressive" specifically in its 'style" of improvisation which is not necessarily based on a riff, which is usually the case in most bands that try improvisations, and then come back to the original theme. In "krautrock", rarely does the same theme come back, and the music continues on.

The problem with listening to something that keeps on moving and developing, is that it aleinates most listeners, specially today, expecting a band to sound the same over and over again with just different lyrics, and this is not something that you will find in "krautrock" in its early days, probably all the way to 1974 or 1975, when the record companies started controlling things again, and the free form music began disappearing bit by bit. But the complete freedom that is apparent (might not be so to the musicians themselves, but IS for us), in some of the early things (Guru Guru early albums, Amon Duul 2 up until the first half of "Vive La Trance", Can all the way to "Landed", not to mention the ways that folks from Kraftwerk/Neu did their thing, which to you and I (TODAY) sounds more like just turning a knob slowly, however we should not misjudge the sound itself and how it can take us away ... adding something to "music" that was not exactly there before!

Music, today, specially some bands trying to do "krautrock" are not specially tuned to improvisation in a free form manner, complete with lawn mowers, vacuum cleaners, kazoos and elephants and clowns ... so to speak ... and they tend to depend on signals to "return" to a certain point in the piece they are doing ... doesn't make it bad at all ... it's just a bit on the composed side, compared to the original "krautrock", whose really early example, was the atmosphere for the very early Amon Duul albums (before it split into AD2), which was just a drum circle (more or less) by anyone in the commune. This is not quite visible in some of the other bands, although one could think that the early Ash Ra Tempel and possibly even Popol Vuh had a bit of this freedom, and as manuel Gottsching specified ... he's a live performer, and almost all of the material in Ash Ra Tempel, Cosmic Couriers had that "live" feeling in it, which the majority of "krautrock" these days is missing altogether.

One other thing, and is specially valuable in describing all this ... Can's Tago Mago, according to Holger Czukay's notes on the website for a long time, were taken haphazard from 20 hours worth of recordings of various experiments and open rehearsals ... and how it was put together might not sound exactly clear to us, in the two long cuts, but the shorter cuts obvisouly shows that now and then they came together very nicely and created some incredible pieces in the middle of these improvisations.

My take, and it is a comparison with my theater background, is that the folks today, do not really know/understand what it means to "improvise", and most of what they do is specualte how this or that works on their guitar, and many of them can not get away/out of their instrument, in order to come up with something else, be it a sound effect or just a peculiar weird bit that came out of something or other, that might not be exactly "musical" in its nature, but it fits nicely into the workings of the piece in question.
FAUST, is the harder one to explain and work with, but if anything, you know that there is a satirical edge in it that makes fun of "music" within its composed state, in my estimation.

But for all ideas and thoughts about "improvisation", no one has ever done anything as wild and experimental as these folks have and got it recorded ... at a time when it was possible to do so, and has not been since. Today, it figures to be easier to do so, but the mental state and preparation for doing it is bound too hard on musical elements, and the idea behind "krautrock" was to let go of the musical elements, is how I think about it!


god I love you Pedro... better than a hit of acid you are...
I find your lack of Bassoon disturbing.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 13:35
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

To me there still is great music, good music & bad music. Most of the music is bad music, but of course also a lot of good music. Great is the rarest. Never cared about the genres.
Well said. Long time ago, I gave up labeling, and went for either "I like it" or "I don't like it". Made my life easier.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 15:59
Canterbury is really "Canterbury scene". It originally never was a genre (and I should know, as I was in on it almost from the start as I was at school there in the mid 60s).

The Canterbury scene described a large group of bands with connections to the Canterbury area. All were descended from, or connected to, The Wilde Flowers. This was a group of musicians who went on to spawn Soft Machine and Caravan. All other bands in the Canterbury scene were formed by offshoots of these bands. Because they formed from a fairly tight nucleus of members, they share some stylistic characteristics.

I am not at all comfortable with including bands who have no connection with the City in this genre, even if they bear some musical resemblance to Canterbury scene bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2018 at 16:11
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

So how would you like your answer today? The same as last time or preferably with some new spins?
I've tried a number of different tactics yet you keep coming back with the same questions. I know Logan has tried to answer you as well...more than once too.

Please go and read the individual genre pages. All you need to know is right there (I've told you this before). Then go listen to some of the bands listed in the genre. If it still doesn't make sense to you, then please just leave it be.
There are plenty of stuff that I don't personally get, yet I don't bemoan the fact that I don't understand string theory to its fullest...but I accept that and leave it be. Maybe you should do the same with these matters, because lord knows we've tried.

Call me an idiot if you want,  but certain genres do leave me confused!...  They don't describe the genre.  Period!!... I was referring to Canterbury, Krautrock and Italian music, nothing else.  But if want a dig, that's OK!!...  Just being honest and showing an appreciation to describe fellow followers good music, thats all..Smile  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maryes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2018 at 03:03
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

To me there still is great music, good music & bad music. Most of the music is bad music, but of course also a lot of good music. Great is the rarest. Never cared about the genres.
Well said. Long time ago, I gave up labeling, and went for either "I like it" or "I don't like it". Made my life easier.

Same to me, I also divide music in good or bad ! Genres is less important than the inspiration !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2018 at 06:58
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

...
 god I love you Pedro... better than a hit of acid you are...

Maybe we should go around telling people to read "The Doors of Perception", and then a little "Steppenwolf"?

We forgot what we could have learned, is how I look at it ... it has become like ... we're ashamed that we were even there and took a hit of acid ... heck, I had my best times under psilocybin and the music sounded great and 40 years later, the music still sounds great, and guess what? It wasn't the dope!

But there is a lot that an "altered state" can help an artist with ... but you'll have to dump your DAW ... first! And nowadays, that will likely be impossible ... thus the chance of something new is not likely to be here for a while until people unglue themselves from "music" and just concentrate on the "moment" ... THAT is what a lot of the originals were about in the first place.
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2018 at 08:00
Originally posted by noni noni wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

So how would you like your answer today? The same as last time or preferably with some new spins?
I've tried a number of different tactics yet you keep coming back with the same questions. I know Logan has tried to answer you as well...more than once too.

Please go and read the individual genre pages. All you need to know is right there (I've told you this before). Then go listen to some of the bands listed in the genre. If it still doesn't make sense to you, then please just leave it be.
There are plenty of stuff that I don't personally get, yet I don't bemoan the fact that I don't understand string theory to its fullest...but I accept that and leave it be. Maybe you should do the same with these matters, because lord knows we've tried.


Call me an idiot if you want,  but certain genres do leave me confused!...  They don't describe the genre.  Period!!... I was referring to Canterbury, Krautrock and Italian music, nothing else.  But if want a dig, that's OK!!...  Just being honest and showing an appreciation to describe fellow followers good music, thats all..Smile  

I have never called you anything of that sort. I have however tried explaining this to you before (twice actually), but you didn't write anything back or question anything. Instead you start a new thread that asks the same question.
And yes the genres are well described on each of the genre pages. If it doesn't make sense to you, then there is nothing we can do.
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