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stewe 
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Czechoslovakia
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 Topic: Marillion with Fish or Hogarth
Posted: March 01 2018 at 07:50 |
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Neither.. actually I would prefer solo Hogarth (his amazing "Ice Cream Genius") and solo Fish ("13th Star" or "Sunsets on Empire") over any Marillion album. Marillion as a band never worked for me, in every album I find a lot of cliche and fillers, predictable, stiff, mediocre themes. Always found it was lucky for Trewavas that he could join bands such as Transatlantic and Kino to express his capabilities and liveliness.
Edited by stewe - March 01 2018 at 07:52
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siLLy puPPy
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PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
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Posted: March 01 2018 at 05:40 |
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^ sorry, i honestly have not found any music more boring to my ears than Hogarth era Marillion and i pretty much love everything from cheesy pop to extreme metal. There's just something missing
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 https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Cristi
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Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 23:41 |
 siLLy puPPy wrote:
Hogarth is quite uninspiring and boring in my world whereas Fish had a diverse pallette of true entertainment value. I guess if you are sedated and prefer santitized blandness the Hogarth era might work for you but Fish was instrumental for creating a whole new movement in progressive rock in the 80s and the first four Marillion albums with him are pretty much all masterpieces. Never could understand why Fugazi is less rated than the rest since that one is my favorite! |
not cool...
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 15:31 |
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Hogarth is quite uninspiring and boring in my world whereas Fish had a diverse pallette of true entertainment value. I guess if you are sedated and prefer santitized blandness the Hogarth era might work for you but Fish was instrumental for creating a whole new movement in progressive rock in the 80s and the first four Marillion albums with him are pretty much all masterpieces. Never could understand why Fugazi is less rated than the rest since that one is my favorite!
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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cemego
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Joined: January 18 2010
Location: Philadelphia PA
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Points: 497
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 14:28 |
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I like Fish Marillion better. The earlier Hogarth Marillion is pretty good. The later Hogarth Marillion albums I find unlistenable. I think Hogarth has started doing this tuneless whispery vocal stuff that just turns me off. I think the last Marillion album I enjoyed was Marillion.com... After that I've completely lost interest in their music.
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listen to streaming stuff! no commercials!
http://wmom.servemp3.com:8000/listen.pls
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Mormegil
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Joined: January 03 2010
Location: NE PA
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Points: 6438
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 07:37 |
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Going with both.
Really enjoyed the "Fish Era", but their recent output with Hogarth has me hooked as well.
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Welcome to the middle of the film.
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Kingsnake
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Joined: November 03 2006
Location: Rockpommelland
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Points: 1578
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 07:36 |
Blacksword wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Cristi wrote:
^ I do not think Fish ever tried to imitate Peter Gabriel. Or Peter Hammill for that matter. |
I doubt he intentionally tried to sound like either. Both were clearly an influence on him, and that does come through in his vocal style at time, especially the Hammill influence. Probably a very 'organic' manifestation of that influence. IMO.
Anyway, I vote for Fish in this poll, although I'm not a big fan of either. The debut album was excellent; probably among the best prog debuts of all time. Fugazi had great moments. Misplaced Childhood is ok, but a bit wet and sappy for me, and CAS is just slick mainstream rock with some proggy keyboard parts. Hogarth's Marillion bores and depresses me. |
I don't like the debut of Marillion at all; mediocre at best. "Fugazi" on the other hand - good songs with good lyrics. far better than anything else Marillion ever did
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Fugazi is a fairly close second for me, musically. Lyrically I think they were always a bit...ahem!...'overated' They sounded great when I was 15 and trying to write lyrics like that myself. These days it sounds like they were trying too hard to sound artsy and clever. No more contrived than Yes, I guess..  |
I have the same feeling.
When I was 15 or 16 I liked what Fish was doing.
He just swallowed a dictonairy and as a dessert a thesaurus.
I like the lyrics to Punch and Judy, but the rest; awful,
Musically there are some highlights, but the best song from this period never made the album: Cinderella Search.
Fish was lyrically better when he became a solo-artist. Less selfindulgent and more politacally and socially engaged. Although I love Clutching, the lyrics from that album really touch my soul.
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hellogoodbye
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 06:42 |
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As a duck ,I prefer fish, but it's purely a question of taste.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Points: 16130
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 06:20 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10377
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 05:24 |
Blacksword wrote:
Cristi wrote:
^ I do not think Fish ever tried to imitate Peter Gabriel. Or Peter Hammill for that matter. |
I doubt he intentionally tried to sound like either. Both were clearly an influence on him, and that does come through in his vocal style at time, especially the Hammill influence. Probably a very 'organic' manifestation of that influence. IMO.
Anyway, I vote for Fish in this poll, although I'm not a big fan of either. The debut album was excellent; probably among the best prog debuts of all time. Fugazi had great moments. Misplaced Childhood is ok, but a bit wet and sappy for me, and CAS is just slick mainstream rock with some proggy keyboard parts. Hogarth's Marillion bores and depresses me. |
I don't like the debut of Marillion at all; mediocre at best. "Fugazi" on the other hand - good songs with good lyrics. far better than anything else Marillion ever did
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Kingsnake
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Joined: November 03 2006
Location: Rockpommelland
Status: Offline
Points: 1578
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 04:46 |
Blacksword wrote:
Kingsnake wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
.... |
There's so many music to listen to.
I can't listen to an album wich has too many flaws.
My thoughts about Script:
Fish sounds too raw, I don't like his voice on this album.
Mick's drumming is terrible. Steve is terribly under-produced. On later albums his guitarsound is much better.
But because these guys were 20 or so, I think it's okay (i rated it 3 or 4*, can't remember) because I have fond memories of it. But do I enjoy listening to it? No, not really. Like I said, I prefer the liveversion (I rated Real to Reel and Thieving Mapie 4*)
And yes, when an album has terrible drumming, or a terrible production, or terrible vocals (it's a matter of taste), I rate it that way.
Wishbone Ash and Camel are always victim when it comes to bashing them because of the vocals, for example.
For instance I can't listen Iron Maiden and Metallica because of the horrific drums (and vocals to).
Maybe the songwriting of both bands are stellar and groundbreaking, but I can't listen past bad musicianship. In the end music is meant to move me, to make me enjoy it.
I'm not a music-school-teacher whose job it is to find the good parts in something that's not enjoyable on a whole.
On the other hand; a lot of music that I like very much, sounds drab to others. I like Civilian by Gentle Giant, wich apparently nobody likes. I also enjoy the 80's period of Rush much more than their 70's output.
I also love the latterday Ozrics (more streamlined) than their badly produced jamband-days.
Etc. etc.
So that's how music works.
Ontopic: I loved Script when I was young, but I moved on.
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That's fair enough. You're not obliged to like anything.
We all hear music differently and enjoy different types of production. I'm a Hawkwind fan, so obviousy I'm not that picky about production, even musicanship sometimes. Different bands have different characteristics and are made by those characteristics. I like Camel, but find Latimers vocals to be pretty poor. It doesn't alter the fact that he played fantastic lead guitar, and they penned great compostions, especially on the first four albums.. Then of course there's all these modern metal bands with their steller musiciaship and perfect production, but I happen to hear most of their songs as being complete sh*t, for my taste.
Love the Ozrics BTW. Erpland to Jurassic Shift is my favourite run of albums. |
I love the 70's output of Hawkwind, because of what it is, and what it meant for pyschrock and spacerock, and out of nostagia.
But my favorite Hawkwind of all time is Levitation. It's sheer perfection to me.
And I love Space Bandits so much (female vocals, violin, heavy drumming, it's great).
And to be on topic, I just like the 80's sounding poppy prog of Misplaced-Clutching-Season-Holidays-Brave.
It's a good run of 5 very good albums.
I also think that Fish did some great stuff solo. I like Vigil-Sunsets-Raingods-Fellini-Feast very much aswell.
In fact Fellini is the best thing Fish did, in my opinion. And it's very pop-oriented.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 04:34 |
Kingsnake wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
.... |
There's so many music to listen to.
I can't listen to an album wich has too many flaws.
My thoughts about Script:
Fish sounds too raw, I don't like his voice on this album.
Mick's drumming is terrible. Steve is terribly under-produced. On later albums his guitarsound is much better.
But because these guys were 20 or so, I think it's okay (i rated it 3 or 4*, can't remember) because I have fond memories of it. But do I enjoy listening to it? No, not really. Like I said, I prefer the liveversion (I rated Real to Reel and Thieving Mapie 4*)
And yes, when an album has terrible drumming, or a terrible production, or terrible vocals (it's a matter of taste), I rate it that way.
Wishbone Ash and Camel are always victim when it comes to bashing them because of the vocals, for example.
For instance I can't listen Iron Maiden and Metallica because of the horrific drums (and vocals to).
Maybe the songwriting of both bands are stellar and groundbreaking, but I can't listen past bad musicianship. In the end music is meant to move me, to make me enjoy it.
I'm not a music-school-teacher whose job it is to find the good parts in something that's not enjoyable on a whole.
On the other hand; a lot of music that I like very much, sounds drab to others. I like Civilian by Gentle Giant, wich apparently nobody likes. I also enjoy the 80's period of Rush much more than their 70's output.
I also love the latterday Ozrics (more streamlined) than their badly produced jamband-days.
Etc. etc.
So that's how music works.
Ontopic: I loved Script when I was young, but I moved on.
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That's fair enough. You're not obliged to like anything. We all hear music differently and enjoy different types of production. I'm a Hawkwind fan, so obviousy I'm not that picky about production, even musicanship sometimes. Different bands have different characteristics and are made by those characteristics. I like Camel, but find Latimers vocals to be pretty poor. It doesn't alter the fact that he played fantastic lead guitar, and they penned great compostions, especially on the first four albums.. Then of course there's all these modern metal bands with their steller musiciaship and perfect production, but I happen to hear most of their songs as being complete sh*t, for my taste. Love the Ozrics BTW. Erpland to Jurassic Shift is my favourite run of albums.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Kingsnake
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2006
Location: Rockpommelland
Status: Offline
Points: 1578
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 04:33 |
Cristi wrote:
^ mainstream proghead? what does that even mean? |
The common opinion on albums, I guess.
There seems to be a lot of consensus on certain albums/artists.
Most of the time I agree but of lot of times I disagree.
For instance: there's nothing I enjoy about Riverside, but they are so popular.
Another example: I love Saga, but almost nobody does.
There's a certain average opinion on certain things, I call that mainstream.
The mainstream top-bands are: ELP, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Radiohead, Porcupine Tree, Rush
The mainstream top-albums are all by these bands.
Not only the endscore prove that, but I look at the amount of scores. Some albums have 17 ratings, others have thousands. That means something.
I tend not to get involved in debates and discussions where opinions are bashed.
But I realize that my taste does not always meet the average opinion.
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Cristi
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Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 04:21 |
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^ mainstream proghead? what does that even mean?
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Kingsnake
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Joined: November 03 2006
Location: Rockpommelland
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 04:05 |
Cristi wrote:
Kingsnake wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Mediocre albums? Which ones do you have in mind?
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To some: Less is More, Marillion.com, Raditation, Anoraknophobia, Strange Engine, Somewhere Else
To me: Afraid of Sunlight, Happiness is the Road, Radiation, Sounds That Can't Be Made, FEAR
I think in the latter days, Somewhere Else and Less is More are the best albums they came up with. |
Nobody's ever said This Strange Engine and Anoraknophobia to be mediocre albums, on the contrary.
Less is More was a nice experiment but that is all.
Afraid Of Sunlight mediocre? Makes me sad reading that. If you said you don't like it, would have been more than ok.
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Afraid of Sunlight is so downtempo I skip almost all songs. The only songs I like are Out of this World (because of the guitarsolo) and King (because of the build-up).
Afraid of Sunlight is the biggest example of what prog is not (to me).
That's why I am not a big fan of Steven Wilson, Radiohead, and all the other doomy, gloomy, downtempo, Pink Floydish, intellectual, way-to-extended songs with no adventure. But that's my taste.
I can totally understand that people want to listen to this kind of dream-prog, but not for me.
An album like Marillion.com, Somewhere Else, Holdiays in Eden, Season's End, Clutching, Misplaced has so much more to offer, than their other albums.
Maybe I'm exactly the opposite of the mainstream-proghead. It's not on purpose though.
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Kingsnake
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Joined: November 03 2006
Location: Rockpommelland
Status: Offline
Points: 1578
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 04:00 |
Blacksword wrote:
.... |
There's so many music to listen to.
I can't listen to an album wich has too many flaws.
My thoughts about Script:
Fish sounds too raw, I don't like his voice on this album.
Mick's drumming is terrible. Steve is terribly under-produced. On later albums his guitarsound is much better.
But because these guys were 20 or so, I think it's okay (i rated it 3 or 4*, can't remember) because I have fond memories of it. But do I enjoy listening to it? No, not really. Like I said, I prefer the liveversion (I rated Real to Reel and Thieving Mapie 4*)
And yes, when an album has terrible drumming, or a terrible production, or terrible vocals (it's a matter of taste), I rate it that way.
Wishbone Ash and Camel are always victim when it comes to bashing them because of the vocals, for example.
For instance I can't listen Iron Maiden and Metallica because of the horrific drums (and vocals to).
Maybe the songwriting of both bands are stellar and groundbreaking, but I can't listen past bad musicianship. In the end music is meant to move me, to make me enjoy it.
I'm not a music-school-teacher whose job it is to find the good parts in something that's not enjoyable on a whole.
On the other hand; a lot of music that I like very much, sounds drab to others. I like Civilian by Gentle Giant, wich apparently nobody likes. I also enjoy the 80's period of Rush much more than their 70's output.
I also love the latterday Ozrics (more streamlined) than their badly produced jamband-days.
Etc. etc.
So that's how music works.
Ontopic: I loved Script when I was young, but I moved on.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 03:48 |
Kingsnake wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Cristi wrote:
^ you say Script... lacks grit? Then what is Forgotten Sons, or The Web. I say even the title song has grit.
Marillion don't do pop. Sorry, but catchy does not equal pop.
Mediocre albums? Which ones do you have in mind?
Brave pop-prog? Oh my God, NO... |
Indeed Script is a classic album, and the darkest and 'grittiest' of the Fish era. Every track is a classic on that album. The title track still really moves me.
I'm sorry but I think they did go quite poppy after that. Punch 'n' Judy is a pop song, as is Kayleigh, Lavender and Incommunacado IMO. That said Kayleigh is a 'pop' classic  Te closest pop/prog comparison to Marillion was probably It Bites, who also made a classic album in 'Once around the World' In some ways they had the edge on Marillion for me, althoug they weren't as consistent or proggy I guess.
It Bites were once described on a UK TV panel show as "Marillion with sex. A far more palatable concept, you'll agree, than sex WITH Marillion" |
How can you all stand the terrible drumming of Mick Pointer? The 'drumsolo' in the Web is embarassing at least.
And how can you listen past the sterile production?
The songwriting of He Knows You Know, Forgotten Sons and Chelsea Monday are great, but I really prefer them with Ian, and a more live-sound to it (Thieving Magpie, Real to Reel).
It Bites are an another example of a really great popband, with sing-along-songs. I love them (the Dunnery-albums). |
It's the quality of the songwriting. Nothing to do with Mr Pointers basic drumming. Script has a unique feel. Subsequent albums were slick production jobs, but the songwriting became formulaic and relatively predictable. It's like saying the songs on Trespass are crap because John Mayhews drumming isn't as good as Phil Collins.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 41266
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 03:48 |
Kingsnake wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Mediocre albums? Which ones do you have in mind?
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To some: Less is More, Marillion.com, Raditation, Anoraknophobia, Strange Engine, Somewhere Else
To me: Afraid of Sunlight, Happiness is the Road, Radiation, Sounds That Can't Be Made, FEAR
I think in the latter days, Somewhere Else and Less is More are the best albums they came up with. |
Nobody's ever said This Strange Engine and Anoraknophobia to be mediocre albums, on the contrary.
Less is More was a nice experiment but that is all.
Afraid Of Sunlight mediocre? Makes me sad reading that. If you said you don't like it, would have been more than ok.
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Kingsnake
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2006
Location: Rockpommelland
Status: Offline
Points: 1578
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 03:22 |
Blacksword wrote:
Cristi wrote:
^ you say Script... lacks grit? Then what is Forgotten Sons, or The Web. I say even the title song has grit.
Marillion don't do pop. Sorry, but catchy does not equal pop.
Mediocre albums? Which ones do you have in mind?
Brave pop-prog? Oh my God, NO... |
Indeed Script is a classic album, and the darkest and 'grittiest' of the Fish era. Every track is a classic on that album. The title track still really moves me.
I'm sorry but I think they did go quite poppy after that. Punch 'n' Judy is a pop song, as is Kayleigh, Lavender and Incommunacado IMO. That said Kayleigh is a 'pop' classic Te closest pop/prog comparison to Marillion was probably It Bites, who also made a classic album in 'Once around the World' In some ways they had the edge on Marillion for me, althoug they weren't as consistent or proggy I guess.
It Bites were once described on a UK TV panel show as "Marillion with sex. A far more palatable concept, you'll agree, than sex WITH Marillion" |
How can you all stand the terrible drumming of Mick Pointer? The 'drumsolo' in the Web is embarassing at least.
And how can you listen past the sterile production?
The songwriting of He Knows You Know, Forgotten Sons and Chelsea Monday are great, but I really prefer them with Ian, and a more live-sound to it (Thieving Magpie, Real to Reel).
It Bites are an another example of a really great popband, with sing-along-songs. I love them (the Dunnery-albums).
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Kingsnake
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2006
Location: Rockpommelland
Status: Offline
Points: 1578
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Posted: February 28 2018 at 03:19 |
Cristi wrote:
Mediocre albums? Which ones do you have in mind?
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To some: Less is More, Marillion.com, Raditation, Anoraknophobia, Strange Engine, Somewhere Else
To me: Afraid of Sunlight, Happiness is the Road, Radiation, Sounds That Can't Be Made, FEAR
I think in the latter days, Somewhere Else and Less is More are the best albums they came up with.
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Marillion with Fish or Hogarth
