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Topic ClosedWhen Trump fires Mueller

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Poll Question: What do you think will happen?
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twseel View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 09:18
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Why would "mixing up people from all over the world" eventually cause frustration?     
Because of tribal instinct and conflicting traditions, the root of racism and oppression all over the world. I'm not arguing that it can't be overcome, I'm pretty pro-immigration myself, but the idea is not extreme right propaganda.
 
This is actually alien to me, I work with families and schools that are predominantly African-American and immigrants from all over the world. People get in fights over parking spots, or "why is he a starter on the team and my kid's on the bench", or 'why isn't my child doing better" etc. Or kids get in fights over bullying situations, but in several decades of working like this I have never heard anyone complain about someone else's culture, never ever.

Who are these people who have "conflicting traditions", describe them to me, because I have never experienced this myself. I am aware there are xenophobes and racists in this world if that is what you are talking about.
I don't mean to be racist to Americans, but America makes sure to very nicely only grant permission to people who are already partly integrated and completely willing to be full-on American. The only thing in America comparable to tensions w.r.t. immigrants in Europe are the Hispanics in the south, and they are already very similar to America so it doesn't count. I have someone living in my apartment building (which was originally only meant for students) who was placed as a refugee from Eritrea to integrate. He barely speaks Dutch or English and he laughs uncontrollably at homosexuals. That causes conflict.
But like I said, I'll be the last person to say he shouldn't come here altogether, considering the problems over there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 09:44
^ well the person you are describing who derides homosexuals is just being a jerk, I wouldn't give him a pass by blaming his culture, thats like making an excuse for him when really he is just a pig.
If there are problems in mixing cultures, it comes from the fact that some people are xenophobes, and I wouldn't make excuses for them either, a xenophobe is a xenophobe, no excuses allowed.

Definition of xenophobe
: one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin


Edited by Easy Money - March 23 2018 at 09:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 10:14
Today I learned all cultures are compatible, there are no conflicting values or traditions between any of them, and if some individual doesn't fully assimilate to the Western culture he's "just being a jerk".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 10:17
The thing is, he's not a jerk. After explaining our standards concerning homosexuals to him he tries to stop laughing and he felt embarassed when he did, but since it's self-evident to think it's ridiculous over in Eritrea it's hard for him to see it this way. It's stupid to say everyone from a certain place/culture is just a bit of a jerk, but differences like this do inevitably cause conflict or at least mutual dissatisfaction, it's just the question whether it can be completely resolved or if some conflict will always remain at the heart of the matter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 10:42
The blame game is far too common. Partially because I don't believe in free will, I am less likely to blame people (it happens, but it's an emotional rather than logical reaction by me). Our cultures, subcultures, family, friends, nature and nurture shape us. People's tolerance varies, and one's culture and experience generally does play a part in that. As I was molested when growing up, I developed some homophobia, but I soon overcame it (far too many of my favourite people are homosexuals for me to justify it). I don't blame someone for their phobias -- an irrational fear, and as a common corollary, hatred, of something (there are so many phobias, and it's rare that someone would be shunned for many of them). Xenophobes are often not well traveled, often not well educated, and have not been exposed in a meaningful way to different cultures. I know that I have cultural biases (certain cultures, including sub-cultures and customs I prefer to others).

I have not experienced much racism from people, but I have experienced a fair amount of culturalism. It can cause grievances when it's perceived that a culture is displacing another, which is a common grievance where I live. That said, my daughter has been called a chink by some kids at her school (my kids are mixed race, but then so am I even if I am blonde-haired and blue eyed), and I know racism exists but I think it's far more about culturalism than race where I live as ethnic enclaves grow due to huge immigration (particularly from South Asia where I am), and largely from China where I lived last. In various places English is heard less than other languages around BC's lower mainland.

My hope is that the kids in growing up together will grow to appreciate each other despite their differences, but since many immigrants are more comfortable speaking in their native languages but also because of religious differences they do tend to stick to themselves. We have a lot of orthodox religious people in my area -- evangelical Christians, orthodox Sikhs in turbans and orthodox Muslims-- I see lots of wowen in hajibs and niqabs, and I don't think the adults mix much, but also in schools you see the tribalism). Some resent that people don't seem to come here because they like the culture already here, but instead create enclaves of their own culture and don't seem to want to mix with others. An an agnostic atheist, I must admit that I find the rise of obvious religiosity rather off-putting despite enjoying going to Buddhist temples, and church on occasion.

I think that lot of multiculturalism can work great (people coming together from all around the world), and the problems can be worse when you have just two or three distinct cultures living in an area together, and when those cultures seem to displace or overtook the pre-existent, dominant culture, resentments can arise. There are going to be growing pains in places with heavy immigration.

When it comes to homosexuality, one has to remember that in certain religions/denominations/cultures it is considered to be sinful and scornful. We should be wary of intolerance in all cultures and question how tolerant be should be of the intolerant. Not all cultures/ subcultures really are compatible and some different cultures are more compatible with each other than others. With my wife and I, our different cultural backgrounds didn't present a problem because we do share the same basic values, though her being a Born Again Christian did present some problems early on and caused many an argument. Her place of birth first language and race hasn't been an issue (well, a bit, since they do have some different societal expectations than I was used to and going to her friends parties and being the only white, native English speaker did make me feel a little uncomfortable, but that was more because I couldn't understand the language and I felt the need to hide may lack of theism). Sorry for such a rambling post -- I'm very ill right now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 12:21
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Today I learned all cultures are compatible, there are no conflicting values or traditions between any of them, and if some individual doesn't fully assimilate to the Western culture he's "just being a jerk".

Good for you ... Mr Sarcasm    If you think all of Western culture is accepting of homosexuality, then you are possibly not aware of the culture that exists where I live, in the US south. Many homosexuals still feel the need to be 'in the closet' here, and for good reason, as there are plenty of people around here with non-accepting attitudes towards them.

Now given that the culture where I live is not accepting of homosexuality, still, when a fellow southerner makes a derogatory remark about homosexuals, my first thought is not, 'its okay, thats just part of our culture'. Instead, my first thought is likely to be 'this person is either ignorant or mean-spirited, or both'.


Edited by Easy Money - March 23 2018 at 12:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 12:37
There are many cultures or subcultures and stratification in so-called Western Culture. We have many social groupings based on wealth, profession, background, education, religious and political affiliation, region etc. etc. A poor bible-belt fundamentalist pig-butcher from the US Midwest may not readily identify with a vegan atheist transsexual who is a professor in Paris. Individuals are complex, and of course so are cultures.

Inculcation is important to consider. If someone is a Church goer, they are more like to grow up to be antihomosexual if they are raised in the Westboro Baptist Church than if they are raised with the United Church. One who grows up in a Salafist family is likely to be less tolerant than growing up in a more Humanist Moslem family.

Edited by Logan - March 23 2018 at 13:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 13:06
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Today I learned all cultures are compatible, there are no conflicting values or traditions between any of them, and if some individual doesn't fully assimilate to the Western culture he's "just being a jerk".
 
Good for you ... Mr Sarcasm    If you think all of Western culture is accepting of homosexuality, then you are possibly not aware of the culture that exists where I live, in the US south. Many homosexuals still feel the need to be 'in the closet' here, and for good reason, as there are plenty of people around here with non-accepting attitudes towards them.

Now given that the culture where I live is not accepting of homosexuality, still, when a fellow southerner makes a derogatory remark about homosexuals, my first thought is not, 'its okay, thats just part of our culture'. Instead, my first thought is likely to be 'this person is either ignorant or mean-spirited, or both'.
Yeah that proves nothing, these people get confronted every day with pro-homosexuality views everyday and yet choose to stand proud by their instinctive dislike for it. They've likely been raised with these views just like Eritreans and now they can choose whether they will take the effort to change their attitudes accordingly to new social developments or stick to their comfortable position. An American can make this change quite easily under the idea that the rest of 'his people', or the culture he identifies with, has already made this change around him, but for an Eritrean to adopt this new view they would have to surpress the idea that the entire culture that gave him his life would disagree with him, which would make at least pretty uncomfortable for him.
But this should all speak for itself really...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 13:21
I suppose I do not have deep knowledge or understanding of Eritrean culture, but apparently others in this thread do. ... just kidding
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 16:36
So what's up with the pending approval flag all of a sudden? Are you really trying to censor any statements that don't follow your belief system?  (whoever is doing this). This sort of thing is causing members to bale on an already fragile site that finds members disappearing as it becomes harder to navigate.

A few have contacted me and said they'll never visit PA again because of this. Not a good omen for the future of the site Confused


Edited by siLLy puPPy - March 23 2018 at 16:39

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 16:49
yeah... I'd agree with that.  We are adults here Keishiro.. and adults know that if you swim with the sharks.. you might get bit.. or at least have some ugly truths thrust upon one's fish bowl echo chamber life.

this forum is no different from any other.. if you have thin skin.. stay the hell out of political threads.  I'd ease off of the heavy hand.  This forum is boring enough .. or do you find the 1000th version of what Genesis song is best reason for still coming to this forum. Some still do for liking the people the here and being interested in what they think about the important things.. not f**king music.. but real life.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 16:57
^ sooo..... what's everyone's favorite Genesis song? If only one Gensis song could be played while Trump fires Mueller, what would you pick? LOL

I'll choose "The Battle Of Epping Forest" just to make the whole more interesting :P

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 16:58
grrrr....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 17:09
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ sooo..... what's everyone's favorite Genesis song? If only one Gensis song could be played while Trump fires Mueller, what would you pick? LOL

I'll choose "The Battle Of Epping Forest" just to make the whole more interesting :P
Imma go with 'Land of Confusion'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 17:58
Twseel, i think you get the gold medal for that suggestion!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 19:17
Thanks!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2018 at 21:48
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ well the person you are describing who derides homosexuals is just being a jerk, I wouldn't give him a pass by blaming his culture, thats like making an excuse for him when really he is just a pig.
If there are problems in mixing cultures, it comes from the fact that some people are xenophobes, and I wouldn't make excuses for them either, a xenophobe is a xenophobe, no excuses allowed.

Definition of xenophobe
: one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin

But that is exactly what the Left wants to do whether or not you would.  And in fact, if you don't give him a free pass, they will call you a racist/bigot/xenophobe/*insert appropriate term*.  I am sorry but people have to stop being apologetic about the Left and the problems they have created with their PC rhetoric.  What you are saying above is the exact opposite of what multiculturalism prescribes, which in essence boils down to say letting Muslims practice sharia law in UK if they want to (rather than integrating with and accepting moral values upheld in British society).  Goes without saying that practicing sharia law would necessarily allow extreme intolerance of homosexuality. For years, the centrists have muddled through this problem without providing a clear and bold resolution and now the worst elements of the right have hijacked these grievances and are riding to power.  Not quite yet in Europe but it may happen and the lessons of WW-II will have been well and truly forgotten.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2018 at 02:43
A big part of the problem is that a lot of people confuse or (worse) refuse to acknowledge the difference between integration and assimilation of culturally different groups.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2018 at 05:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ well the person you are describing who derides homosexuals is just being a jerk, I wouldn't give him a pass by blaming his culture, thats like making an excuse for him when really he is just a pig.
If there are problems in mixing cultures, it comes from the fact that some people are xenophobes, and I wouldn't make excuses for them either, a xenophobe is a xenophobe, no excuses allowed.

Definition of xenophobe
: one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin


But that is exactly what the Left wants to do whether or not you would.  And in fact, if you don't give him a free pass, they will call you a racist/bigot/xenophobe/*insert appropriate term*.  I am sorry but people have to stop being apologetic about the Left and the problems they have created with their PC rhetoric.  What you are saying above is the exact opposite of what multiculturalism prescribes, which in essence boils down to say letting Muslims practice sharia law in UK if they want to (rather than integrating with and accepting moral values upheld in British society).  Goes without saying that practicing sharia law would necessarily allow extreme intolerance of homosexuality. For years, the centrists have muddled through this problem without providing a clear and bold resolution and now the worst elements of the right have hijacked these grievances and are riding to power.  Not quite yet in Europe but it may happen and the lessons of WW-II will have been well and truly forgotten.

I think my words have been given an extension I wouldn't really agree with. I think your post has a lot of generalizations that don't reflect a much more complicated reality. The term 'multiculturalism" sounds vague and simplistic to me, and seems to imply that there is this group of people who all see things the same way. Also, attempts to divide people into simple camps such as 'liberal', 'left' or 'conservative' does not do justice to how much more complicated many of us actually are.

Speaking only for myself and no other group of people of any name, I have never had a problem with another person's culture and have never had a reason to condemn another person's culture. Having said that, I think if a person puts down another person for any reason (such as they are homosexual, they have dark skin, they wear a scarf over their head, they can't speak my native language etc), it reflects poor character on their part.

Although I have never used this word myself, your term 'multiculuralist' might well apply to me, but I doubt I would excuse destructive behavior based on cultural differences. Lumping people together with some sort of ill-defined vague label doesn't really work in the real world.

Edited by Easy Money - March 24 2018 at 05:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2018 at 07:07
@ Easy Money:  Perhaps the term multiculturalism sounds vague but policymakers themselves often use it, usually with reference to immigration and assimilation.  Here's Merkel stating she believes multiculturalism has failed as far back as 2010.


And as for what I personally want, well, I am individual and non affiliated and am entirely comfortable with whomsoever practicing whatever they want as long as they don't use the pretext of religion/race/ideology or any other form of groupthink to impose their 'values' on me.  Whether it is Muslims seeking to impose sharia law on the entire population or Christians discriminating against gays, both cases are incompatible with the liberal order.  And in this regard, I make no distinction between majority or minority communities and refuse to make apologies for overreach by the latter as liberals seem far too prone to these days.
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