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Is Prog Underrated?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hellogoodbye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 05:17
OK Steve

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 05:36
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Is prog just the b*****d stepchild of rock or does it have a real musical pedigree in the outside world?


Prog is often treated by mainstream rock fans with the sort of suspicion befitting the profoundly deaf being offered a guide dog.

All cynicism aside, yes it has had an enduring and discernible influence on practically every musical development since its inception (inside and outside of rock)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 08:13
Hi,

Prog/Progressive for me, is not underrated, or overrated. It is MUSIC, and regardless it will resonate as long as it attracts people to it, be it live or Memorex ... sorry couldn't help it!

If you look at music history, the periods of material that CHANGED the norms, were the ones that ended up being remembered and are a part of the history of the art form.

Some think that rock music, is too much pop song defined and simplified, and as such its history within the realms of "music" will be limited, when so much more can be done with more instruments or compositionally. I will not agree with Ian Anderson, who said that everything has been done in rock music that can be done, and its over, but the changes within it, to electric and then to something else, and now to the DAW, kinda tells you that the music is not solid enough to be carried as a musical element that will change the history of the art form. Jazz, for example stands to benefit more by adding the odd things and time changes to classical music, which are ... still ... not quite being reflected as "classical composers", most of which  have disappeared due to the possible chance of 10 minutes of fame and a million dollars.

I have always thought that many of the well known pieces by various folks that are considered historic and tops in the Progressive/Prog world, should be considered serious composed material, and that makes a band a "composer", which I think is the future definition for the history of music. Up until now the single person got the credit, and now it's 2 or 3 or 4 or more folks together that become known as the composer, and I do not think there is anything wrong with that.

The only thing that makes this "underrated", or even "overrated", is the fact that this is being done amidst a very large group of "fans", and not quite folks that are well knowledgeable about music itself, or its history (myself included ... mine is peripheral, I would say!), in order to be saying/asking some of the things they are. But the things that hurt the understanding and appreciation of the music itself, for me, is the bunch of posts about which is "better", and which "guitar" is more important. Weird when no one that we know ever asked which violin made ... something ... better than the rest of the music! Or which conductor made it more important!

Those kinds of questions, can only ask senseless questions that do not always mean a whole lot, or have any direct relation to the music and the presentation of it at all. Go read about any major artist, and that is their biggest complaint.

All in all, the "rating" (over or under) is really meaningless ... and I really think that we should respect the music for what it is ... one of the most valuable of all human expressions, and how it can help us at so many times in our life, compared to any other art. It might not be our favorite, but it still stands up ... and as such, a rating is meaningless to our own experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 08:53
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I have always thought that many of the well known pieces by various folks that are considered historic and tops in the Progressive/Prog world, should be considered serious composed material, and that makes a band a "composer", which I think is the future definition for the history of music.

All in all, the "rating" (over or under) is really meaningless ... and I really think that we should respect the music for what it is ... one of the most valuable of all human expressions, and how it can help us at so many times in our life, compared to any other art. It might not be our favorite, but it still stands up ... and as such, a rating is meaningless to our own experience.


(I know I'm going to regret this) Why do you continue to assert (or even care) that what are considered the finest creations of Progressive Rock would withstand even the flimsiest scrutiny under which formal academic music is routinely subjugated? Sine qua non: There are pop music songs that move me profoundly e.g  God Only Knows, The Long and Winding Road, Waterloo Sunset, Jumping Jack Flash (the list goes on) I'm sure that when pressed, you would agree to having your own list based on those times that resonate within your own personal experience. Cut to the chase: why does what floats your boat leave the rest of us feel like like landlocked Bolivian frigates (pun intended)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 11:58
Ah, yep. I would have to agree. I consider prog to be a performing art. Its just not a fine art.

Edited by SteveG - March 28 2018 at 12:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2018 at 20:43
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ah, yep. I would have to agree. I consider prog to be a performing art. Its just not a fine art.

That's the problem. For me, it IS a FINE ART. 

What makes you think that playing an instrument today, was any different than 400 years ago, and that people did not respond to it?

I tend to consider a lot of the "progressive" material, nearly the same as any classical music. I do not like to separate them as "just rock music", because their effect on me, is no different than the 5th, the 3rd, Thus Spake Strauss, or the Bolero, and a thousand other pieces.

If you ask me, instead, is Punk "overrated", I might say yes, but being a theater/film person, so many of these "scenes" are a public/social reaction, and while they may not be "important" musically, they are from a different perspective, in showing a social issue.

It reminds me of the Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill thing ... you and most folks don't give a damn about the theater (or even Bowie's Baal!), but the real strength of the whole thing is its message, and it's as if the music was not as important.

Just remember that I am the one trying to "elevate" the quality of the music we love, and you are (for my tastes) bringing it down by suggesting this or that of my choice is not as good as your choice, and I'm not sure that what you are saying is helping define, and make the music we love more important. If anything, by consistently trying to bring me down, you are in effect denying the music its strength, in other areas that are often not mentioned or discussed.

Ex: Everyone thinks that PG was great with all the costumes and what not, and that Genesis died after that. No one talks about masks and costumes having its history going back at least to Greek Theater, and in Eastern theater in both China and Japan. This, would make Genesis, not very original! And is the main reason why I do not find that the music is better because the costumes were used. 

"Prog" and "Progressive" is as important a musical period, as Baroque, Romantic, and any other definition out there. Just weird that you seem to be strictly discussing top of the pops, against my posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 01:48
Yeah I'm closer to Moshkito's thoughts on this. As a professional artist myself a statement like this simply makes no sense at all: 
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ah, yep. I would have to agree. I consider prog to be a performing art. Its just not a fine art.
Its a way of thinking about-and categorizing the arts that has been proven wrong countless times throughout the centuries. A lot of older autodidact/folk/outsider art is now counted as fine art. Self taught artists such as Paul Cezanne, William Blake, Max Ernst, Balthus, Frida Kahlo (or composers like Bohuslav Martinů, Heitor Villa-Lobos, Giacinto Scelsi...) often had a harder time careeerwise but eventually such things doesn't matter - as it shouldn't. Within the arts, because so much useless crap is produced and presented even at most important museums and fairs "everyone" puts far too much weight on the "where" rather than "what". But thankfully history doesn't care as much about such technicalities. Some prog will be canonized and a lot of academic arts - now respected and considered important will be dismissed and forgotten. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 01:56
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ah, yep. I would have to agree. I consider prog to be a performing art. Its just not a fine art.

Just genuinely curious (not trolling/fishing for arguments); where do you draw the line? What constitutes a "fine art"? Hell, I'd argue prog (and classical, of course) is as close to a fine art in terms of contemporary music that we'll ever get here in the west.

I'm more inclined to agree with what Moshkito said above, as well. I didn't "get" what you meant by calling "my avatar a fake"; now I understand your point about Genesis borrowing costumes from Greek theater, and thus not being as original (despite appearing so at that point in history)!. Great stuff!


Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - March 31 2018 at 02:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 03:35
I'd think and have heard that many ambitious musicians appreciate some prog and are happy to take some influence from it, pretty much regardless of what they do. Then some of this may not be "prog mainstream" but rather some stuff the "progginess" of which could be a matter of controversy here.
Which is part of the tension between "prog" as a genre and genuine progressiveness. Developing into a genre with predictable characteristics runs counter to the potential to be innovative. Happily much of the music listed here still was done by open minded and inventive musicians, so deserves appreciation outside a specialist prog audience indeed.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 04:18
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Yeah I'm closer to Moshkito's thoughts on this. As a professional artist myself a statement like this simply makes no sense all...
Its a way of thinking about-and categorizing the arts that has been proven wrong countless times throughout the centuries. A lot of older autodidact/folk/outsider art is now counted as fine art. Self taught artists such as Paul Cezanne, William Blake, Max Ernst, Balthus, Frida Kahlo (or composers like Bohuslav Martinů, Heitor Villa-Lobos, Giacinto Scelsi...) often had a harder time careeerwise but eventually such things doesn't matter - as it shouldn't. Within the arts, because so much useless crap is produced and presented even at most important museums and fairs "everyone" puts far too much weight on the "where" rather than "what". But thankfully history doesn't care as much about such technicalities. Some prog will be canonized and a lot of academic arts - now respected and considered important will be dismissed and forgotten. 


Makes no sense? Is that so? Well my friend, as you have just elaborated, at present prog is not viewed as "autodidact/folk/outsider art" and I can't see how it ever will. You are free to view prog as a fine art but I'm afraid that would be in error.

Edited by SteveG - March 31 2018 at 04:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 04:24
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG]

I'm more inclined to agree with what Moshkito said above, as well. I didn't "get" what you meant by calling "my avatar a fake"; now I understand your point about Genesis borrowing costumes from Greek theater, and thus not being as original (despite appearing so at that point in history)!. Great stuff!
I don't recall ever commenting on your avatar or even noticing it. You must have me confused with the other SteveG who goes by the name micky.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 04:40
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG]

I'm more inclined to agree with what Moshkito said above, as well. I didn't "get" what you meant by calling "my avatar a fake"; now I understand your point about Genesis borrowing costumes from Greek theater, and thus not being as original (despite appearing so at that point in history)!. Great stuff!
I don't recall ever commenting on your avatar or even noticing it. You must have me confused with the other SteveG who goes by the name micky.

No, I simply forgot to mention that I was referring to Moshkito in regards to calling PG a rehash, not you, sir!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 04:41
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Yeah I'm closer to Moshkito's thoughts on this. As a professional artist myself a statement like this simply makes no sense all...
Its a way of thinking about-and categorizing the arts that has been proven wrong countless times throughout the centuries. A lot of older autodidact/folk/outsider art is now counted as fine art. Self taught artists such as Paul Cezanne, William Blake, Max Ernst, Balthus, Frida Kahlo (or composers like Bohuslav Martinů, Heitor Villa-Lobos, Giacinto Scelsi...) often had a harder time careeerwise but eventually such things doesn't matter - as it shouldn't. Within the arts, because so much useless crap is produced and presented even at most important museums and fairs "everyone" puts far too much weight on the "where" rather than "what". But thankfully history doesn't care as much about such technicalities. Some prog will be canonized and a lot of academic arts - now respected and considered important will be dismissed and forgotten. 


Makes no sense? Is that so? Well my friend, as you have just elaborated, at present prog is not viewed as "autodidact/folk/outsider art" and I can't see how it ever will. You are free to view prog as a fine art but I'm afraid that would be in error.

Please explain your requirements for a medium to be considered "fine art"...?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 04:46
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Yeah I'm closer to Moshkito's thoughts on this. As a professional artist myself a statement like this simply makes no sense all...
Its a way of thinking about-and categorizing the arts that has been proven wrong countless times throughout the centuries. A lot of older autodidact/folk/outsider art is now counted as fine art. Self taught artists such as Paul Cezanne, William Blake, Max Ernst, Balthus, Frida Kahlo (or composers like Bohuslav Martinů, Heitor Villa-Lobos, Giacinto Scelsi...) often had a harder time careeerwise but eventually such things doesn't matter - as it shouldn't. Within the arts, because so much useless crap is produced and presented even at most important museums and fairs "everyone" puts far too much weight on the "where" rather than "what". But thankfully history doesn't care as much about such technicalities. Some prog will be canonized and a lot of academic arts - now respected and considered important will be dismissed and forgotten. 


Makes no sense? Is that so? Well my friend, as you have just elaborated, at present prog is not viewed as "autodidact/folk/outsider art" and I can't see how it ever will. You are free to view prog as a fine art but I'm afraid that would be in error.

Please explain your requirements for a medium to be considered "fine art"...? 

You appear to imply that you hold some objective measurement/quantification of standard, have yet to mention it, and thus keep begging the question on the topic on the last couple posts.


Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - March 31 2018 at 04:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 04:47
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Yeah I'm closer to Moshkito's thoughts on this. As a professional artist myself a statement like this simply makes no sense all...
Its a way of thinking about-and categorizing the arts that has been proven wrong countless times throughout the centuries. A lot of older autodidact/folk/outsider art is now counted as fine art. Self taught artists such as Paul Cezanne, William Blake, Max Ernst, Balthus, Frida Kahlo (or composers like Bohuslav Martinů, Heitor Villa-Lobos, Giacinto Scelsi...) often had a harder time careeerwise but eventually such things doesn't matter - as it shouldn't. Within the arts, because so much useless crap is produced and presented even at most important museums and fairs "everyone" puts far too much weight on the "where" rather than "what". But thankfully history doesn't care as much about such technicalities. Some prog will be canonized and a lot of academic arts - now respected and considered important will be dismissed and forgotten. 


Makes no sense? Is that so? Well my friend, as you have just elaborated, at present prog is not viewed as "autodidact/folk/outsider art" and I can't see how it ever will. You are free to view prog as a fine art but I'm afraid that would be in error.

Please explain your requirements for a medium to be considered "fine art"...?
I'm no being difficult but I believe it's up to you to argue why prog is a fine art, not why I feel it's not. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 04:51
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Yeah I'm closer to Moshkito's thoughts on this. As a professional artist myself a statement like this simply makes no sense all...
Its a way of thinking about-and categorizing the arts that has been proven wrong countless times throughout the centuries. A lot of older autodidact/folk/outsider art is now counted as fine art. Self taught artists such as Paul Cezanne, William Blake, Max Ernst, Balthus, Frida Kahlo (or composers like Bohuslav Martinů, Heitor Villa-Lobos, Giacinto Scelsi...) often had a harder time careeerwise but eventually such things doesn't matter - as it shouldn't. Within the arts, because so much useless crap is produced and presented even at most important museums and fairs "everyone" puts far too much weight on the "where" rather than "what". But thankfully history doesn't care as much about such technicalities. Some prog will be canonized and a lot of academic arts - now respected and considered important will be dismissed and forgotten. 


Makes no sense? Is that so? Well my friend, as you have just elaborated, at present prog is not viewed as "autodidact/folk/outsider art" and I can't see how it ever will. You are free to view prog as a fine art but I'm afraid that would be in error.

Please explain your requirements for a medium to be considered "fine art"...?
I'm no being difficult but I believe it's up to you to argue why prog is a fine art, not why I feel it's not. 

I disagree; I don't think it's unreasonable to request you to assert a definition so we have context of where you're coming from, especially with how you're implying you have a standard, yet haven't shared it yet - only that others have the wrong idea or are in error in their stances. 

I never called it fine are, other people have, and they aren't explaining why. 

I'd like context for the arbitrary line in the sand. This board appears to be packed with people who enjoy vacillating between something being opinion, then a fact (or lack of explanation of how that works) when it appears convenient for them. 

I think it's perfectly pertinent to this discussion that you reveal your stance on what constitutes fine art, rather than possibly moving the goal posts on someone else after they state their stance. You seem to be the one resisting the label of fine art, so please, do tell.


Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - March 31 2018 at 04:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 05:04
 I thought this was implied by the age old arguments against viewing pop music as fine art.  Very well, prog, at present,  fails to meet the criteria that would define it as fine art and falls into the camp of popular art and entertainment.

Edited by SteveG - March 31 2018 at 05:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 05:04
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ I thought this was implied by the age old arguments agianst viewing pop music as fine art.  Very well, prog, at present,  fails to meet the criteria that would define it as fine art and falls into the camp of popular art and entertainment.

What's the dividing criteria that separates fine art from popular art and entertainment? That's all I'm trying to get at. The line appears to be blurred/people can't seem to agree, therefore there appears to be no objective metric, and thus everything is just a slightly more elaborate opinion.

I'm also completely fine with that. It's when people try (not you personally Steve) to act like there is a quantifying, objective metric when it's ultimately just still opinion on a higher level, that gets my goat (this board is packed with that).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 05:16
^ Ah yes, there we have it! This type of discussion is always based on subjective opinion but we, and especially I, fail to state so in our posts and responses with the preface of IMHO. Everyone who views prog as fine art have just as valid reasons for believing so as I have for not. These are only discussions, but sometimes with some very intuitive peers that sometimes makes it a  fascinating learning experience. At least for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 05:26
Its with prog and popular music as in all other neighboring creative fields. Its not possible to come up with a 100% rule that you can use to measure and categorize different kinds of expression with. Experience and knowledge helps a lot though. Sometimes its difficult and sometimes easy to define but "everyone" knows Stalker, Wild Strawberries are both movies and art but Police Academy 6 and Sister Act 2 isn't... Considering whole genres as "not fine art" by default is what doesn't makes sense to me. 
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