Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Is Prog Underrated?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Is Prog Underrated?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 10>
Author
Message
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Brexit Empire
Status: Offline
Points: 9612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 05:39
^ I understand what you're saying. Perhaps it's because of the way prog music is treated. Wild Strawberries is treated as a fine art. It is discussed in university art classes. Books have been written about it and the Criterion Collection has special editions celebrating it as an artistic milestone. Perhaps when Close To The Edge is studied and celebrated in the same fashion, I will view the music on CTTE differently then the way I do now.
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: A Land Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 9218
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 05:53
The demarcation between fine arts and popular arts and entertainment is effectively a European 18th Century one (the distinction does not seem nearly as prevalent in oriental cultures or the americas for that matter) The former were deemed purely aesthetic in intent and design (e.g. literature, music, painting, sculpture, poetry etc) while the latter were practically applied 'crafts' (pottery, decorative arts, weaving, embroidery etc) I would guess that comprehensive education, democratization, globalization and mass media have effectively rendered the historical educated v uneducated division that existed in the 18th Century as meaningless. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, on these forums, it all comes down to how your taste is perceived at the end of the day.
However, I still don't believe that Prog's 1st Gen masterpieces would stand up to the sort of scrutiny afforded to formal academic music e.g. what might be deemed the previous classical canon of music. That too might be subject to change, but for me we would have to lower the bar for Prog to gain entry.


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 31 2018 at 05:55
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 42877
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 06:28
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Is prog just the b*****d stepchild of rock or does it have a real musical pedigree in the outside world?

I vote redheaded stepchild of rock...  the last thing most people want with music is to have to think.  Rock at its heart is playful.. about fun, youth, energy and passion. You know.. the kind of music you put on to get psyched up to go hit the bars, be it to get trashed and dance on pool tables,  get a bar fight and toss the spoiled frat boy who spiilled your beer out the front window, or simply bust a bar stool over his head, set yourself on the prowl for some action and get on the prowl for pussy... or if you are like Mick in his 20's... all 3 in the same evening.  

Prog is often too serious and intellectual for its own good... books are made for the head.. rock is for the soul.  Prog occupies the meeting point and for some, perhaps many, that is a bit too much.  So no..  I wouldn't consider it underrated.. it is a niche form of music that really only appeals to certain type of listeners.
The Diet Coke of Evil....
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: A Land Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 9218
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 07:36
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Is prog just the b*****d stepchild of rock or does it have a real musical pedigree in the outside world?

I vote redheaded stepchild of rock...  the last thing most people want with music is to have to think.  Rock at its heart is playful.. about fun, youth, energy and passion. You know.. the kind of music you put on to get psyched up to go hit the bars, be it to get trashed and dance on pool tables,  get a bar fight and toss the spoiled frat boy who spiilled your beer out the front window, or simply bust a bar stool over his head, set yourself on the prowl for some action and get on the prowl for pussy... or if you are like Mick in his 20's... all 3 in the same evening.  

Prog is often too serious and intellectual for its own good... books are made for the head.. rock is for the soul.  Prog occupies the meeting point and for some, perhaps many, that is a bit too much.  So no..  I wouldn't consider it underrated.. it is a niche form of music that really only appeals to certain type of listeners.


You can have fun, be youthful, energetic, soulful and passionate whilst still thinking. You must be an advertising executive's wet dream...Oblivious, the fragrance for south of the (red)neck. There is nothing more pitiful than a nostalgia for something that never happened in the first place. I don't know anyone whose opinions I respect who takes Prog seriously or think it remotely intellectual. They would however, kick your disingenuous ass in a bar brawl (no contest)LOL


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 31 2018 at 07:52
Back to Top
Frenetic Zetetic View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 09 2017
Location: New Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 2253
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 08:13
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Ah yes, there we have it! This type of discussion is always based on subjective opinion but we, and especially I, fail to state so in our posts and responses with the preface of IMHO. Everyone who views prog as fine art have just as valid reasons for believing so as I have for not. These are only discussions, but sometimes with some very intuitive peers that sometimes makes it a  fascinating learning experience. At least for me.


Absolutely. I must confess, my personal preference for philosophy, logic, and reason make me almost OCD when people don’t say “IMHO” (hence why I always try to), lol. I agree completely, though; it makes for great discussion and learning!
Jazz fusion all day, baby.
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 42877
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:17
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Is prog just the b*****d stepchild of rock or does it have a real musical pedigree in the outside world?

I vote redheaded stepchild of rock...  the last thing most people want with music is to have to think.  Rock at its heart is playful.. about fun, youth, energy and passion. You know.. the kind of music you put on to get psyched up to go hit the bars, be it to get trashed and dance on pool tables,  get a bar fight and toss the spoiled frat boy who spiilled your beer out the front window, or simply bust a bar stool over his head, set yourself on the prowl for some action and get on the prowl for pussy... or if you are like Mick in his 20's... all 3 in the same evening.  

Prog is often too serious and intellectual for its own good... books are made for the head.. rock is for the soul.  Prog occupies the meeting point and for some, perhaps many, that is a bit too much.  So no..  I wouldn't consider it underrated.. it is a niche form of music that really only appeals to certain type of listeners.


You can have fun, be youthful, energetic, soulful and passionate whilst still thinking. *emoti and huh? snip*

hahaha...  that didn't make a great deal of sense to me.. so let me snip the one part that did...

if you are thinking while being youthful, energetic, soulful.. and ESPECIALLY passionate.. then you are doing something wrong...

the great joy of youth, energy, soul and passion is NOT thinking ... it is living in the moment and the HELL with the consequences... like waking up in places you don't remember getting to... because you were NOT thinking or particularly coherent.

rock music has always been a vehicle for that. is has always been about energy, passion and a distinct lack of thought... thus the danger and appeal to youth that has underlaid rock since Elvis came along man.
The Diet Coke of Evil....
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Brexit Empire
Status: Offline
Points: 9612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:36
^ Right on! Bring on the red(neck)heads! I wouldn't listen to prog if it was not part of rock. And the prog that strays furthest from the man from Tupelo holds no attraction for me.
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 42877
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:41
funny Steve.. these days the prog that attracts me most is that which strays furthest from 'rock'. Then again I've fallen under the sway of Uncle and Auntie Rio-Avant.  I mean come on.. if one wants to rock...  you are likely best going with something that likely will NEVER find its way onto this site if not simply for pure music.. then definitely lyrically haha.

AC/DC for progarchives? Whole Lotta Rosie.. oh yes...  anti-intellectualism rock at its greatest.
btw.. Probably one of he few bands I don't believe I've ever seen a thread suggesting for inclusion haha
The Diet Coke of Evil....
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Brexit Empire
Status: Offline
Points: 9612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:44
^ ha ha I definitely dig prog with a solid hook and beat but I absolutely loath AOR. Go figure!  LOL

Edited by SteveG - March 31 2018 at 09:45
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 42877
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:47
never understood loathing for AOR unless you were a completely out there space cadet living in mama's basement non sexed prog elitist.. sure we have some here.. but umm.. never thought you for the type Steve haha
The Diet Coke of Evil....
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Brexit Empire
Status: Offline
Points: 9612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:52
And that's my exact perception of an AOR lover! A pimply adolescent who masturbates to Come Sail Away while fantasizing about the blonde who sits in front of him in homeroom!
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 42877
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:54
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

And that's my exact perception of an AOR lover! A pimply adolescent who masturbates to Come Sail Away while fantasizing about the blonde who sits in front of him in homeroom!

*spits last of first beer of day on monitor*

ummm you are confusing Rush fan for AOR fan...
The Diet Coke of Evil....
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Brexit Empire
Status: Offline
Points: 9612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:57
Yes, I did that quit often in the past until I realized that the Rush fans were getting older, bigger and tougher than me! But yeah, they're one and the same!! LOL
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 42877
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 09:57
with a fresh one....Beer
The Diet Coke of Evil....
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 7890
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 10:12
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 I thought this was implied by the age old arguments against viewing pop music as fine art.  Very well, prog, at present,  fails to meet the criteria that would define it as fine art and falls into the camp of popular art and entertainment.

Not sure this is true, and you and I and many of us are doing our best to improve that.

IF, all the whole thing is popular music and entertainment, then nothing that we discuss and talk about as "progressive" or "prog" would have survived 45 years and still be discussed, played and talked about.

In general, and not only for music but most arts, the ones that "survive" and are still seen and mentioned and read, are the ones that become a "fine art" as a part of the history of the art itself.

I don't think that anyone can really put together a comprehensive guide as to a demarcation line between "fine art" and "art" and then "popular art", since, SPECIALLY THESE DAYS WITH INTERNET, it can all be seen and heard and read and appreciated, when 75 years ago,  some works never were seen on the other side of the world. Or even BEFORE, where there was no photography to show what someone in Europe did, or what Japan or China had to offer.

It is my contention, that the reason why we think of a lot of this music as "popular" is because of the media attention to it. And I, personally do not see the problem if a King Crimson gets attention and becomes better known and appreciated for their musicianship, which I do not think that any of us will ever question, even if it is "popular". Likewise, some of the greatest actors of the 20th century, dancers, composers, also were affected by "publicity" and became better known and appreciated, yet, no one has shown you or I anything (except a couple of romanticized movies) about Valentino, and other great actors at the turn of the century, but you and I know all about Burton and Olivier!

Somewhere along the way, we have to look at these things more objectively. And the "media" and this total BS about "favorites" and "likes" and "dislikes" needs to take a hike. it is hurting the ability to improve the discussion and the standing of the whole thing. Here we are trying to show how it has survived history ... and then the next two or three posts are trolls. That is incredibly sad, and while they have a right to their comments, in the end, they are hurting the discussion by not giving a darn.

We are in the "age of the media", and we are STILL influenced to the point of being completely controlled and totally brain-washed by top of the pops designs that are run by folks that OWN the media, which means that a lot of the lesser selling things are not getting the respect and attention that they should and a place like PA, is FANTASTIC AND SPECIAL about that ... so helping ensure that we become even more important and valuable in this discussion is, for me, a goal for a lifetime, and I will be glad and happy if we can get a percentage or two of improvement, so that silly toilet paper rags stop printing articles about this and that progressive stuff and really shake it down and bad.

People like Rick Wakeman, Vangelis, Mike Oldfield, Edgar Froese/Tangerine Dream, will forever be remembered and talked about, because of their dedication to the music and the works they were involved in. Many folks make fun of 2 versions of YES out there, and yet, they are both very good and the only thing it shows is that 50 years later, the music is still important, valuable and outstanding.

Now, I'm not sure that you will be appreciated calling all of the folks named above as "popular artists" and nothing else ... you'll probably get treated very badly by a lot of folks around here. And it would not be fair, to their abilities and musicianship, which over the years can be said to ... outstanding. Many composers, hope to be able to do half as much in their lifetimes! But calling Rick Wakeman a hack? Sorry, that is something he is not, and his ability and work is not a joke! It's fine art, even if you think that someone else is a better keyboard player!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 7890
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 10:15
Hi,

One last comment.

Try to listen to Rachel Flowers do her piano versions of Keith Emerson, and other musical pieces. It shows a side of the compositions that Keith put together, and when you listen to them as a solo piano piece, it just shines, no different than a Mozart, or Chopin, or anyone else. 

To me, that is the perfect example of what makes "fine art", and the fact that one person, can "translate" the so-called "popular and entertainment" music, into something that is outright beautiful and fantastic ... supreme compositional skills and an amazing touch for detail and feel, like you would never SAY ABOUT ANYONE ELSE out there.
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 3100
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 13:57
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

However, I still don't believe that Prog's 1st Gen masterpieces would stand up to the sort of scrutiny afforded to formal academic music e.g. what might be deemed the previous classical canon of music. That too might be subject to change, but for me we would have to lower the bar for Prog to gain entry.
Perhaps compared to the canonized works from early baroque to early modernism but from there on till 2018 the bar is already considerably lowered. As much as I actively listen, investigate and occasionally enjoy the spectralists, minimalists, serialists, electro-acoustic & aleatoric music + whatever academic trend - I think the distinction between the often insistingly anti-social musical experiments of the 20th century from the correct schools and say the ones that represent the b*****dized versions - whom managed to communicate these ideas to a slightly broader audience... as 60's/70's african-american avant-garde jazz (by now thoroughly included in the "fine arts") and say... bands such as Can, Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream, Soft Machine... (who knows maybe Yes and King Crimson as well, I'm not sure and its not my decision) the b*****ds already seem to be "winning". Not nessecarely compared to the real geniuses Bartok, Shostacovich, Penderceki... still making music for "an eternity" but the rest. 

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Is prog just the b*****d stepchild of rock or does it have a real musical pedigree in the outside world?

I vote redheaded stepchild of rock...  the last thing most people want with music is to have to think.  Rock at its heart is playful.. about fun, youth, energy and passion. You know.. the kind of music you put on to get psyched up to go hit the bars, be it to get trashed and dance on pool tables,  get a bar fight and toss the spoiled frat boy who spiilled your beer out the front window, or simply bust a bar stool over his head, set yourself on the prowl for some action and get on the prowl for pussy... or if you are like Mick in his 20's... all 3 in the same evening.  

Prog is often too serious and intellectual for its own good... books are made for the head.. rock is for the soul.  Prog occupies the meeting point and for some, perhaps many, that is a bit too much.  So no..  I wouldn't consider it underrated.. it is a niche form of music that really only appeals to certain type of listeners.


You can have fun, be youthful, energetic, soulful and passionate whilst still thinking. You must be an advertising executive's wet dream...Oblivious, the fragrance for south of the (red)neck. There is nothing more pitiful than a nostalgia for something that never happened in the first place. I don't know anyone whose opinions I respect who takes Prog seriously or think it remotely intellectual. They would however, kick your disingenuous ass in a bar brawl (no contest)LOL
I think having decided that prog can't be taken seriously because its just dumb rock is just as silly as taking academic music too seriously. Prog is fun, rock n' roll and all that but that doesn't mean i listen to ELO and Art Zoyd with the same mindset. Should I be embarrassed that Rock Bottom is just as profoundly moving, challenging and cathartic to me as Verklärte Nacht? That would be actual, insecure snobbery to me.
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: A Land Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 9218
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 14:56
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:


I think having decided that prog can't be taken seriously because its just dumb rock is just as silly as taking academic music too seriously. Prog is fun, rock n' roll and all that but that doesn't mean i listen to ELO and Art Zoyd with the same mindset. Should I be embarrassed that Rock Bottom is just as profoundly moving, challenging and cathartic to me as Verklärte Nacht? That would be actual, insecure snobbery to me.


I don't recall saying Prog was 'dumb rock' but just that like yourself, I don't listen to it with the same aesthetic criteria as I would say, Bartok, Stravinsky or Ives etc. (You ever read a Yes or ELP lyric?Wink) What I consider the finest popular music (Beatles, Beach Boys, Who, Kinks, Stones etc) is capable of moving me every bit as much as some of the classical masters both of us have mentioned

Edited by ExittheLemming - March 31 2018 at 14:57
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: A Land Mass
Status: Offline
Points: 9218
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 15:08
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


the great joy of youth, energy, soul and passion is NOT thinking ... it is living in the moment and the HELL with the consequences... like waking up in places you don't remember getting to... because you were NOT thinking or particularly coherent.




Would one of those places be Trump's America? Wink
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 42877
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 17:56
yeah... that shoe fits doesn't it...  the textbook example of the HELL with the consequences not thinking or being politically coherent.

Trump has to be considered our first Cult President.. very rock and roll indeed
The Diet Coke of Evil....
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 10>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.329 seconds.