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Is Prog Underrated?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 05:27
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Thanks, dude.  Hang in there!

always my friend...  I plan on going down swinging.. and with NO plans of ever seeing a rest home and drooling and pissing on myself haha


Edited by micky - April 15 2018 at 05:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 05:33
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

...
You can have fun, be youthful, energetic, soulful and passionate whilst still thinking. You must be an advertising executive's wet dream...Oblivious, the fragrance for south of the (red)neck. There is nothing more pitiful than a nostalgia for something that never happened in the first place. I don't know anyone whose opinions I respect who takes Prog seriously or think it remotely intellectual. They would however, kick your disingenuous ass in a bar brawl (no contest)

Kinda weird to see this, and realize that the "progressive" and "prog" that we discuss here is not an American thing that you would discuss in a bar, but something that you also would discuss in a Paris Café, or some sort of place in Rome, or Tokyo ... and I'm sorry ... the town that your bar belongs in, does not fit in this discussion because they only know one kind of music. In NY, many bars, and even other night clubs (usually) have a decent respect for other musicians and music. In SF, this is not an issue either. But it will likely be a problem in Podunk, Askansaw or Needles, Tennessee where they think that their country music is GOD and the rest of music is crap, anyway ... and why the heck, in the furthest reaches of my mind and universe, would you be silly enough (or drunk) to even be discussing "prog" or "progressive" over there?

I am thinking that your ideas need some readjusting. It may not be a discussion here, but I'm not sure you see/realize the possibilities elsewhere. Prog/Progressive is no different than many art scenes out there the world over. We might not be as big/famous as most rap ... but then, we have lasted over 50 years, and I think that most rap will be forgotten and not played out loud and clear, like we -- and others no doubt -- DO!



yeah...  the bars I used to hang in.. we didn't discuss things like prog and progressive.  We discussed more mundane things like how the food is at the local jail, what types of loads we use in our guns, the closest we got to music was discussing the most wild DAC show we've been too, and the most arty the discussion ever got was admired the various shades of red (dried blood) on the sawdust floor.

sorry Iain..  you are European.. I'll take the roughest bar and crowd here in the states over anything you all can muster. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 05:36
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

...
Today's listener in large part, today's youth, can give a sh*t about tags and labels. Is is prog.. or not? Doesn't matter to most listeners today .. only what matters is if the music is good. Which again brings us back to the ills that prog occasionally has... forgetting that in the end...  forget the art, the complexity, virtuosity and all that jazz... what matters is if you can write good music that connects with people. 
...

My biggest concern here is that we learn to stop doing the same thing, and help improve the standing of the music. But, the main issue here, including some admins, is that they do not think that this is any better than some kind of blah and blah pop music, and that it does not deserve the accreditation that it is getting 50 years later.

As the Rachel flowers example shows, of Keith's piece of music, there isn't a SINGLE PIECE of these progressive pieces that we love, that CAN NOT get the same treatment, and all of a sudden, sound ... wow ... that is amazing, and even things like Frank Zappa, end up sounding extraordinary, all of a sudden.

I do not understand the lack of respect for so much music, and (at least) I am not so stuck up as to think that all pop music is crap and does not even deserve the thought that most of it is "music" ... but I do accept that somewhere along the way, we have created a standard for what the definitions of "music" are in music history, and the 3 and 4 minute songs, have been considered simple exercises, and not serious music.

That's not to say that most "progressive" and "prog" has to be 12 minutes long, or a longer piece, but it does say that the musical spread over that amount of time, should/could be seriously better and more varied than what a pop song in the top ten has to offer. NONE of the "progressive" or "prog" music really even fits in the "top ten" or pop music, and that is something that, somehow, we just don't get and keep thinking that it must be because the music is not good, and does not deserve the attention that it is getting, specially from us.

We have to stop thinking that what we're talking about is not valuable music ... if it weren't, none of us would even mention it 50 years later, or consider yummy yummy I got crap in my tummy is worth more attention than Genesis, Jethro Tull, Yes, Pink Floyd, King Crimson and such ... and other than JT and late Genesis, none of these were a "pop band" at all! 
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 05:52
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

...
Today's listener in large part, today's youth, can give a sh*t about tags and labels. Is is prog.. or not? Doesn't matter to most listeners today .. only what matters is if the music is good. Which again brings us back to the ills that prog occasionally has... forgetting that in the end...  forget the art, the complexity, virtuosity and all that jazz... what matters is if you can write good music that connects with people. 
...

My biggest concern here is that we learn to stop doing the same thing, and help improve the standing of the music. But, the main issue here, including some admins, is that they do not think that this is any better than some kind of blah and blah pop music, and that it does not deserve the accreditation that it is getting 50 years later.

yeah sorry Pedro...  as much as I like prog. I'll never think or agree that prog is any better or more deserving of adulation than other forms of music like pop.  It is different and talks to different types of listeners and the needs of those listeners. It forms a mere piece of the larger pie that is 'music' and the place it occupies in our lives.  This smacks of the Evangelical nature of prog and its fans and its fans I spoke of yesterday.  Hey enjoy it if you wish, but I find the notion that others are somehow addled or missing something if they don't see the value in it, or god forbid.. should be converted to become fans to be highly amusing, and a bit disturbing.

As the Rachel flowers example shows, of Keith's piece of music, there isn't a SINGLE PIECE of these progressive pieces that we love, that CAN NOT get the same treatment, and all of a sudden, sound ... wow ... that is amazing, and even things like Frank Zappa, end up sounding extraordinary, all of a sudden.

I do not understand the lack of respect for so much music, and (at least) I am not so stuck up as to think that all pop music is crap and does not even deserve the thought that most of it is "music" ... but I do accept that somewhere along the way, we have created a standard for what the definitions of "music" are in music history, and the 3 and 4 minute songs, have been considered simple exercises, and not serious music.

disagree with you strongly there Pedro...  for the simple reason that I hold music and views of it to be highly personal and individual.  What is serious music to you can be, and surely is, different from what others will hold it to be. Do you think that urban music is less serious in nature, or to its listeners than prog is to you.  I highly doubt that.

That's not to say that most "progressive" and "prog" has to be 12 minutes long, or a longer piece, but it does say that the musical spread over that amount of time, should/could be seriously better and more varied than what a pop song in the top ten has to offer. NONE of the "progressive" or "prog" music really even fits in the "top ten" or pop music, and that is something that, somehow, we just don't get and keep thinking that it must be because the music is not good, and does not deserve the attention that it is getting, specially from us.

We have to stop thinking that what we're talking about is not valuable music ... if it weren't, none of us would even mention it 50 years later, or consider yummy yummy I got crap in my tummy is worth more attention than Genesis, Jethro Tull, Yes, Pink Floyd, King Crimson and such ... and other than JT and late Genesis, none of these were a "pop band" at all! 

valuable? Of course it is.. but to us as individuals.. not in any kind of larger sense or comparison against other forms of music..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 06:14
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

... yeah sorry Pedro...  as much as I like prog. I'll never think or agree that prog is any better or more deserving of adulation than other forms of music like pop.
...
disagree with you strongly there Pedro...  for the simple reason that I hold music and views of it to be highly personal and individual.  What is serious music to you can be, and surely is, different from what others will hold it to be.
...
 

Sad to see this ... even after you (probably NOT) hearing Rachel's piano and/or organ cover of TARKUS, and then think that this is just a pop song, and not on par with some of the greatest composers that we have heard and known. that I now believe you have not heard much of!

And I'm not sure that this is all just some idea/fantasy in my mind. Music history is full of examples that were probably considered too advanced/weird/whatever, and were ignored, only to be found these days, and even made into movies and released out there. 

I do think, and I might not be totally correct here since I am not in Europe, that the appreciation of music, or the arts by most Americans is getting totally left behind, and dumped by the current trump'ism of all arts, in lieu of the memememememememe money and fame that is supposedly better and more important. 

Maybe, myself coming from a literary family, makes things different, and I can understand and appreciate the "artistic spirit" possibly more than others ... but not believing in the art itself, except your SUBJECTIVE ideas about what you like, is not what ART is about, and certainly not a good representation of our ability to describe, support and appreciate both "progressive" and "prog" music, which I will to the end!

Not because I like it, but because there is more to it, than just a pop song, and the repetition of the coda, the bridge and the melody 10 times!

Maybe coming from Europe makes a difference, where so many folks got hurt for not having the proper/correct political and social affiliations during the wars, but to many of us over there, it was THE ARTS that helped us communicate and move and work together and hopefully get somewhere. They meant something more important than just a quick lunch, a quickie with the wife and a hug to your child ... they were the glue that kept the life together, and MEANINGFUL that helped each and every day go by.

Today, so much of this is negligible, that seeing you making that comment, along others, reduces the life of these arts to almost nothing that would differentiate them from the rest. 

I can only say one thing to you, and hope that it hits ... in our house in Santa Barbara, was a huge library of over 40K books of Portuguese, Brazilian, Spanish, French and Italian Literature ... you must think that every single writer in there, some of which were not even indexed yet on various places in America (Brown University and Stanford!), and every book, and every single page ... is just ... TOILET PAPER.

I'm sorry. 

There is some gold in there, and a lot of it is very PROGRESSIVE, and very PROG ... but since you and others have not seen anything like it, or experienced it first hand, you can only think that one song, or one piece of music is just ... another song ... or in this case, just another book ... just another library ... and maybe, just maybe, one day, you will know/understand what I said, and spoke of.

There is a lot of beauty in there that is a lot more than just a "song". FOR ME, it is my job (and yours) to help identify these and help them ... unless you are only looking for a gig at Rolling Stone! Good luck!

This, is one of the saddest days in my life ... the realization that folks that are thought of as the root and the force that helps this music survive, in the end ... are not at all! worse, they think the world is mired in their own version of it, as well!

Cry


Edited by moshkito - April 15 2018 at 06:18
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 06:16
ahhh... you just made me feel bad Pedro... like I would kicking a little puppy hahah.  I hope you'll still love me though...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 06:57
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


sorry Iain..  you are European.. I'll take the roughest bar and crowd here in the states over anything you all can muster. 

Clearly you've never drunk in the seedier areas of Glasgow, Liverpool, Warsaw or the like.
Ian



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 07:01
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


sorry Iain..  you are European.. I'll take the roughest bar and crowd here in the states over anything you all can muster. 

Clearly you've never drunk in the seedier areas of Glasgow, Liverpool, Warsaw or the like.

hahaha...  hmmm....seems I'll need to do some serious field investigations into this.  

You rule Ian...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peart_lee_lifeson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 07:43

In a general sense and around the globe as a whole I will say yes, it is underrated.  However, within the "prog community," I would actually say it is highly overrated.  I say this as an almost 28 year old man who has gone from a rock/metal junkie to a "prog snob," to where I am at now, which is much more accepting in general of different styles of music, as long as it is quality music within that style.  No matter what genre you look at, be it classical, jazz, rock/metal, pop, rap, country, prog, etc., there is bad music and there is good music.

PROG ON!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 07:58
agree completely with the 2nd part... but on the first part.  Are you speaking of the past, the present, or in general. I'd agree that in the past it underrrated.. in that many tossed out the whole baby for a few bands shtting in the bath water which gave the whole genre a bad name.  

Does that really persist today IYO.  I don't think it does as I've alluded to in my posts. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peart_lee_lifeson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 08:13
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

agree completely with the 2nd part... but on the first part.  Are you speaking of the past, the present, or in general. I'd agree that in the past it underrrated.. in that many tossed out the whole baby for a few bands shtting in the bath water which gave the whole genre a bad name.  

Does that really persist today IYO.  I don't think it does as I've alluded to in my posts. 
 
Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think prog is underrated by the general public.  Well, perhaps in the past it was, but now and in the future I think it is simply under-explored or unexplored.  The majority of people are simply not interested in music enough outside of what is playing on the radio.  And yes, I'm generalizing, but I'm pretty sure it's quite true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 08:17
interesting.. thanks for the thoughts. Thumbs Up I wanna chew on that for a bit..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 09:43
Originally posted by peart_lee_lifeson peart_lee_lifeson wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

agree completely with the 2nd part... but on the first part.  Are you speaking of the past, the present, or in general. I'd agree that in the past it underrrated.. in that many tossed out the whole baby for a few bands shtting in the bath water which gave the whole genre a bad name.  

Does that really persist today IYO.  I don't think it does as I've alluded to in my posts. 
 
Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think prog is underrated by the general public.  Well, perhaps in the past it was, but now and in the future I think it is simply under-explored or unexplored.  The majority of people are simply not interested in music enough outside of what is playing on the radio.  And yes, I'm generalizing, but I'm pretty sure it's quite true.

agreed...  I think it was dismissed out of hand unfairly in the past... but as we know the present in terms of music is much different than the past.

there is something to the notion about people perhaps not being interested in music which surely will give Pedro misty eyes..  we touched on this a couple of weeks ago.  Not only have CD sales been bottoming out.. but surprisingly so have digital sales.. it does seem that less people today are interested in music.  Now my question was, and still is, whether those are strictly numbers reported by the big heavies? Do they reflect the small independents? I really don't know.. but again I digress. There might well be something to your point that people today don't care about music.  That is a good topic in itself.

And yet keeping this more specific to prog than music overall.  There is a thriving underground scene which today's progressive rock plays a large part in,  playing to not old farts at prog fests but playing to kids. Bands who by our estimations may be prog/progressive take your choice.. and might gladly take a festival slot at a prog fest...but don't identify themselves as such and play countless shows and gigs not to prog fans but music fans. It is that divergence that Jacob spoke of many years ago that likely needed to happen for todays progressive rock to survive.. quit trying to appeal to prog fans, mainly old folks stuck in the past.. but get out and appeal and play to the general music loving population who don't care what it is called. 

From what I've heard, talking to bands at various shows.. that is what they are doing and they are getting on remarkably well. Ive seen that sea change easily here at PA's.  Back in the early days of the site we had newish band after band  hounding us to be added to the database.. today... where is that...  it ain't happening. Why?  I've drawn my own opinions of that which many wouldn't like but I have strong belief they are dead on and say a lot of things about prog and its 'fans'. However the reality is there are two very distinct things at play here.. prog rock and progressive rock. Each has its own set of fans.. one group you see hanging out here.. the other.. rarely to ever.. and while there are some that like both, there is a very definite split between the two.

anyhow.. my thoughts on that. Thanks again for the thoughts.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 10:21
Originally posted by peart_lee_lifeson peart_lee_lifeson wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

agree completely with the 2nd part... but on the first part.  Are you speaking of the past, the present, or in general. I'd agree that in the past it underrrated.. in that many tossed out the whole baby for a few bands shtting in the bath water which gave the whole genre a bad name.  

Does that really persist today IYO.  I don't think it does as I've alluded to in my posts. 
 
Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think prog is underrated by the general public.  Well, perhaps in the past it was, but now and in the future I think it is simply under-explored or unexplored.  The majority of people are simply not interested in music enough outside of what is playing on the radio.  And yes, I'm generalizing, but I'm pretty sure it's quite true.
 
hmmmm.... while reading all this page I was never really willing to take the bassoon out of here haha, so I beg your pardon, but let's face it man.....good and bad music was always there (and will always be) since the advent of radio, what is good or bad is not having that variety you pointed above. And if there is someone to blame for not having it is only the listener, since is much more common today people limiting themselves to just having a simple, almost childish 'chicken and fries'; on the other hand, there are those who think that that 'meal' is .... ahemm... a CRIME against the 'Arts field' quality. I beg your pardon, but these people might be as BORING as those who are often found eating a sophisticated and glamorous dinner at the Hotel Meurice in the heart of Paris man.........
 


Edited by Tillerman88 - April 15 2018 at 10:25
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 10:33
And frankly, what is music if not a travel without a defined destiny? I find damn samey those people who state their listening habits are like taking a 1st Class flight to Paris or New York or whatever! Give me an adorable horse and I sure have a much better 'traveling' experience all the way through! No matter whether it begins or ends simple and almost childish-like Terry Jacks' Seasons In The Sun, for instance. What most matters to me is the fun, the joy ... i.e. the disparity of feelings and emotions I have during that journey with my beloved (and irreplaceable) horse ;)

Edited by Tillerman88 - April 15 2018 at 10:35
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 14:56
This thread (especially the last few pages) are blowing my mind with amazing perspectives!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 18:30
Quote
Not only have CD sales been bottoming out.. but surprisingly so have digital sales.. it does seem that less people today are interested in music.

I'd rather think that more people know how to get their stuff for free and they do it.
That people are less interested in music in general is not what I observe. However attention spans get shorter so I'd think there may be less interest in music that takes time to develop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2018 at 18:41
streaming services make it hard to assess people's interest in music.  I pay $10 a month for spotify and listen to hundreds of albums a year.  I've discovered a lot of music this way, good bad or great, or at least been able to listen to music I read about here and elsewhere without spending extra.  I do buy 2 or 3 CDs or DVDs a year, mostly crowdfunding for bands that need help financing the album up front
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2018 at 02:00
At this point, I'd have to say it's BOTH overrated and underrated.

It's overrated because fans of the genre will overstate aspects that others aren't interested in.

It's underrated because music quality is subjective, and isn't the result of the metric of sales.

The balance struck between these two positions is up to the individual. Also, balance doesn't make for good discussion, lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2018 at 06:01
Originally posted by peart_lee_lifeson peart_lee_lifeson wrote:

... 
Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think prog is underrated by the general public.  Well, perhaps in the past it was, but now and in the future I think it is simply under-explored or unexplored.  The majority of people are simply not interested in music enough outside of what is playing on the radio.  And yes, I'm generalizing, but I'm pretty sure it's quite true.

This is not true at all ... if this was true, the "imports" thing would never have happened, and this Forum would never have existed since the music would not get any attention anyway!

There is a blog, and a set of posts in this Board, about Space Pirate Radio ... Guy's blogs can be rather scary considering his fights with radio station idiots and morons, and people that just kiss up to bosses to get on the air, so they can .... get better dope (or women! Better yet ... girls!!!)

IF you think that "progressive" and "prog" made it because it got on the air, you are not exactly correct. It might have from YES, JT, KC, GENESIS and PF, but in the end, this board is not about just 5 bands, and your argument is very naïve. You are not taking in consideration that FM radio at its early start, up until about 1978 or 1979, was fairly independent and was playing a lot more than you can possibly imagine, since you are not even willing to check the Space Pirate Radio thread, and find out that even in 1974, the number of "imports" and bands that were played in the show from all over the world (no American music was played in that specific show after the first few months!), is a list that is insane, and even if posted here, some of the folks would not believe it.

You will never appreciate the heart ache and insults that Guy took, for playing Gentle Giant, Supertramp, Average White Band, Golden Earring, Focus and many other things, that every one thought was just American copy, and your comments just show, how little studying you did about that time and its music. Things like Nektar, did not get released here and have a couple of very strong tours because their music was not played. IT WAS. Just not in the station that you listen to which only has the same top ten every other week, and they all sound the same ... and you will NEVER hear anything of this stuff in there. Have you not figured that out yet?

It's a shame, that in the end, the real problem is that so many here are not willing, capable, or ready to read a little, study a little, and find out a little, about so many artists and so much music. And then a loon like me posts something this long, and you are not man enough to read through it and figure out ... what is worth it or not, and ... wait a minute ... if no one played it ... HOW THE FUDGE DID THE MUSIC SURVIVE?

It certainly was not because of your comments!

Tongue
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
www.pedrosena.com
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