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Braka View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 05 2018 at 07:05
Back in the early 90's I was so obsessed with and in love with Klaus Schulze's 1970's stuff that I used it for the background music for four radio serials I produced.

At the time Schulze's music grabbed hold of some deep unconscious part of me. His music seemed to be of its own origin, as if it people weren't involved. A glimpse into some fathomless cosmic scene.

Much later I've accumulated all those albums on CD, and I have to say I find the CD versions disappointing.

It used to be like some wall of cosmic sound.  On CD I can hear every instrument, every time he does this and that, and I can pick it apart, and it sucks.

This is an old argument. Remember all the stuff about vinyl sounding 'warmer' when CD's came out? I actually like CD's, but in this case, I'd rather have the vinyl. Though in this case it's  nothing to do with an abstract concept like 'warmth'  - it's simply that on vinyl,  the muddiness worked. 


Edited by Braka - May 05 2018 at 07:08
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It'll be the opposite in my case, mate! For years I had several crackly KS LP's, so getting them on CD at least made them sound pristine to me for the first time. I absolutely agree about a warmth to vinyl, but these days, I'm very much into a lot of spacey and ambient music (which I don't consider Schulze as being too far removed from), which I absolutely prefer on CD, because even that one stray pop or crackle completely ruins the atmosphere for me. Likewise, all my Tangerine Dream, Steve Roach etc albums are on CD, and for those sort of artists it's my preferred format.
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I certainly don't disagree about CD's in general. I like the suckers.  It seems to be quite a specific thing for me: certain wallofsounddcapes becoming unremarkable when you can pick out the components.   There are a few other examples: I just listened to Hawkwind's  'Assault and Battery / Golden Void' on CD, and again, the old gigantic wall of cosmic muck that I remember from the 70's is now specific instruments doing this and that. And trust me this is not because my hearing has improved.
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I have plenty of Schulze on both vinyl and cd. Some lps sound like you describe the cds and vice versa. I think it's entirely down to the quality of the individual release.
I love both mediums and alternate frequently between them. I love the added 'reverence' there is to the whole vinyl world ie bigger covers and the sexy and infinitely more swaying image of a needle sinking into a groove opposed to a laser beam reading a plastic disc behind closed doors.
Soundwise they're equal. Again entirely dependant on what you feed them with (and your set up of course).
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Hi,

One of the reasons I got a big turntable with a $300 dollars cartridge in 1978, and a set of speakers that cost $700 dollars at the time, was exactly because of Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream. I can not "vouch" for the warmth, because the sense for me, is in what some call a "psychic" listening, and it is centered on the music itself, not a process in between the source and the listener. Thus, some things "sounding" warmer, for me are sometimes tentative, however, there is one album that has never been put on CD properly, and it was HAWKWIND's Space Ritual that sounded absolutely stunning in that stereo of mine, and when I got the CD, it sounded like the cheapest mp3 I have ever heard, and the quality was hardly better than a bootleg ... the concert is still great, but knowing that difference between the original and what obviously was taken from a copy of a LP instead of a master, is a sad thing that disrespects the band and its fans, for my tastes.

I think that KS has two sections. The analog and the digital. I can not imagine anything special about the LP releases of anything of his "digital" material. However, I am not sure that the "digital" recordings of his early material are suffering at all, and I have gotten all the CD's and they are meticulously done and I think they made sure the quality was there. I can listen to both on my stereo (speakers re-coned twice here in Portland, but still alilve!), and I can not say that there is a difference to my ears, but this may be because I sync in to the effects and the spirit/soul of the musical piece, and not its physical elements that might cause a different feel, which for me it doesn't. I have the same issue with all the "digital remasters and remixes" all over, and specially those done by SW, that are just cleaned up things, and not exactly as good as they are made out to be, in my book.

What is makes it sound like is that supposedly one is better, but I do think, and believe that the "source" of the music is not the recording, or how it is handled afterwords ... it is in the MUSIC, and that is not something that should be affecting the "story" within your imagination of the trip inside.

In the early days of Krautrock, there were some albums that were done in Quad and this and that, but I have never been able to discern anything special about them. Only one album was EVER different and needs to be heard ... Robert Schroeder's first album could be played at 33RPM and 45RPM, and sounded magnificent in both ways, and this is something that no one else has ever done, or that I have ever found. To me, that is more valuable than the typical thought that there is more warmth in one than the other. The music itself either has that warmth or it doesn't is my thoughts on that, and (again!) the recording should not make any difference, although you can add some echo, and this and that, in order to accentuate something, however, the original feeling still is the thing and detail that makes the music special ... not the effect afterwards.
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Hi,

An important example.

Record yourself saying one sentence or two. 

Now imagine that this was made into a CD and such.

What makes it "good" (don't criticize yourself on it!), is how the words were said, and how you delivered those words. IF, there was any warmth and/or coolness in those words, it would be in your way of saying.

Now, it is possible that an analog recording would be different from a digital recording of your words, but the ESSENCE of your words, will not change, except that SW will make sure that it sounds better than before, and that is an illusion that changes the original a bit, and for my experience, has a way of interfering with what you are saying, and how.

Thus, listening to a band, and CD, FOR ME, it is IMPORTANT to remove all the filters and try to find the essence of the band and/or the music itself. It does not quite change each and every time you listen to it, but there is always something in it that attracts you to it, but that is something within your inner self, and not necessarily within the music ... the music is "over there" and you are "over here".

Thus, for me, this is a very tough discussion, since with my theater/film experience, these things are not tough, but getting a nice, clean, clear and valuable expression for the audience, is what defines the good from the average and such. To me, regardless of what anyone does to it, afterwords is not an issue. you can make Olivier, Burton and others sound "better", but you are not changing what they said and how ... and to me that is the "meat" of the strength of the music and its lyrics in any situation. In the case of KS and TD, it is the "visual" performance that comes alive for me.

This is the reason why the digital/analog discussion is not as important for me. But there is a slight issue here ... no one attacks the organ/synths like Keith did in the analog days, and synths/organs these days do not sound as good, or as strong ... so in some ways, we have lost a way to really learn more about this, although I am not sure that it will change the nature of the music. I doubt that Stravinsky will sound better (the actual music) in one or the other ... the orchestra and conductor will either have "done it" or "not", and the redoing of the recording afterwards would not matter.

Would Bernstein's version sound better in analog or digital? I doubt it. Because the music is so strong that the accents that a producer would put together on it will likely erase your thoughts real quick! And these can be done digitally better than analog.
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Originally posted by Braka Braka wrote:

I certainly don't disagree about CD's in general. I like the suckers.  It seems to be quite a specific thing for me: certain wallofsounddcapes becoming unremarkable when you can pick out the components.   There are a few other examples: I just listened to Hawkwind's  'Assault and Battery / Golden Void' on CD, and again, the old gigantic wall of cosmic muck that I remember from the 70's is now specific instruments doing this and that. And trust me this is not because my hearing has improved.

I think I know what you're getting at. Your initial experience with KS was based on sounds blended together as a result of the analog tape transfers. Things can indeed sound different, and back in the '80s when I first began to make the switch from tapes to CDs (which didn't culminate until the '90s), the clearer, sharper sonics did yield a somewhat different experience with some albums. I assume that's what you mean by the "wall of sound" you first tasted with the elpees. I've a friend who unloaded most of his remasters and kept the old discs for the same reason you describe, more or less.
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Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

It'll be the opposite in my case, mate! For years I had several crackly KS LP's, so getting them on CD at least made them sound pristine to me for the first time. I absolutely agree about a warmth to vinyl, but these days, I'm very much into a lot of spacey and ambient music (which I don't consider Schulze as being too far removed from), which I absolutely prefer on CD, because even that one stray pop or crackle completely ruins the atmosphere for me. Likewise, all my Tangerine Dream, Steve Roach etc albums are on CD, and for those sort of artists it's my preferred format.

Ditto. Also, Structures From Silence and Empetus sounded perfectly fine pre-remaster. It's still nice to get remasters that are expansions, i.e. they add a bunch more music recorded around the same time or later (as with Quiet Music and Empetus).
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no 
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I have been thinking about this subject and I actually think I prefer lps to cds with this sort of music ie the good ol Berliner schule. I love the almost ceremonial task of flipping the disc, and when you then are listening to these long stretched out bubbly pieces often spanning 20+ minutes, it then feels good to 'get involved' - remind your brain that it's actual people sculpturing this enormous mammoth of sound.

Then again, with Klaus you often get loooooooooong tunes that'll have to be cut in two, which really hurts the flow. His latter day material, especially, is preferable to own on cd imo. Luckily I own most of his 70s output on great sounding vinyl - also got Audentity which imho is his finest album from the 80s. An additional treat though is the way this lp sounds. Holy chipmunk! It sounds so crisp and beautiful and almost as if the music comes with an extra large soundstage. It's one of my go-to records to put on whenever I've been foolish enough to grab a new headphone (I certainly don't need anymore)...alrhough that probably is overkill seeing as this lp sounds magical pushed through just about anything.
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

It'll be the opposite in my case, mate! For years I had several crackly KS LP's, so getting them on CD at least made them sound pristine to me for the first time. I absolutely agree about a warmth to vinyl, but these days, I'm very much into a lot of spacey and ambient music (which I don't consider Schulze as being too far removed from), which I absolutely prefer on CD, because even that one stray pop or crackle completely ruins the atmosphere for me. Likewise, all my Tangerine Dream, Steve Roach etc albums are on CD, and for those sort of artists it's my preferred format.

Ditto. Also, Structures From Silence and Empetus sounded perfectly fine pre-remaster. It's still nice to get remasters that are expansions, i.e. they add a bunch more music recorded around the same time or later (as with Quiet Music and Empetus).

Pardon me as I go a little off topic here!

Verslibre, I have the remaster of `Structures from Silence' (that lavish three disc set, but I honestly only keep returning to the original, it's perfectly superb on its own), and the pre-remaster version of `Empetus'. I actually just bought several Roach albums from a local Aussie Discogs vendor - `The Magnificent Void', `Origins', `World's Edge' and two of his Robert Rich collaborations `Strata' and `Soma' for the record, all original versions - but the vendor also had an early Fortuna issue of `Structures...' - would you recommend picking up that one over the most recent one?

Ha, actually listening to `Bloodmoon Rising: Night 1' at work right now, quite nice and fizzy that one, especially with headphones!

Edited by Aussie-Byrd-Brother - May 05 2018 at 13:03
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If Klaus Schulze had incontinence problems, then by all means he would be better on vinyl. Save the carpet and rugs.
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Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Verslibre, I have the remaster of `Structures from Silence' (that lavish three disc set, but I honestly only keep returning to the original, it's perfectly superb on its own), and the pre-remaster version of `Empetus'. I actually just bought several Roach albums from a local Aussie Discogs vendor - `The Magnificent Void', `Origins', `World's Edge' and two of his Robert Rich collaborations `Strata' and `Soma' for the record, all original versions - but the vendor also had an early Fortuna issue of `Structures...' - would you recommend picking up that one over the most recent one?

If it's inexpensive, by all means. I prefer the original cover art of SFS and Empetus to the redone versions, which is why I own both!

Origins is a good one. If you like that one, see out Artifacts, released the year after.
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It seems like the old "CD versus LP", or "Analog versus Digital" issue/discussion that has divided people  for years now. I personally like both, if that makes sense. Analog sound had a quite special unique appeal, and digital has the clear, crips sound that makes things sound quite precise. I guess the old LP albums sound different for us, the older generation, while for younger people that have grown up with digital, analog is muddy, unclear, etc. I think that, if you like how the music sounds, no matter what format you choose, then enjoy it.
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FWIW I never intended this to be an argument about CD vs vinyl; merely that in this particular instance I enjoyed the vinyl version. Specifically because (I suspect) the lower dynamic range of the vinyl was more pleasing.

For the record, overall I prefer CD.

Edited by Braka - May 12 2018 at 15:16
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Hi,

Without meaning to sound out in left field, this thread shows so quickly who has HEARD and LISTENED to KS and who hasn't.

The appreciation of the long cuts, and your ability to close your eyes, has nothing to do with the CD or the LP ... has to do with the music itself and how you are able to fly with it. And those who have flown might have a preference, but in the end, it doesn't matter, and I side with the folks that like the longer cuts, and the CD's ability to given them to you, as opposed to the old mandated style of cutting off the LP at 20 minutes, though many/most of KS's had this wonderful habit of going up to almost 30 minutes.

The one thing that I miss the most in my life, was listening to SPACE PIRATE RADIO, still the only show that for many years (was on for 25 years!), played ALL of KS's works, and in their entirety. No single listing of any BS this or that show on the Internet, would have the guts of even playing "Mirage" in its entirety, as an example, or anything else for that matter. For those years, ALL of KS and TD's works were played in their entirety, and this is something that is missing in all of the shows.

This discussion is strange to me, because the FM's signal was even better than the LP and the CD, but I'm not sure that you were ever able to consider or check that out, and in the case of KS and TD, it was almost completely magical, and something that we can not imagine and something that Steven Wilson is not willing or capable of listening to, or even have any idea of how it sounded.

Over the year, this has added a dimension to the music, that can not be described and I like to consider it a part of the 3rd dimension in it, even though I know that the 3rd dimension has to be YOUR MIND, and not the physical way it comes to you. And this was important in the old days, when you heard bootlegs ... no one here will ever disagree that they sounded terrible ... but that also says that you did not listen to the band and what was there, which was superlative and above and beyond anything you have ever experienced. Let's say that it was what you heard outside the theater half a block away -- story goes you could hear PF or JT 3 blocks away from the Sports Arena!

So weird to think that the CD is adding to the music. Or the LP ... and if it did, it would change the ORIGINAL and take away a valuable sense of experience ... and it never did for me!
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