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Any Prog characteristics in music theory?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2018 at 08:30
Western tonal theory is just an interpretive framework so to speak, a way to divide up the physical stimulus into parameters. It's not the only kind of music theory, nor is it the only way we divide music into parameters. However, it is very similar to language in that if a person is speaking in a particular language, the best way to understand what they are saying is to interpret their speech in that language. I would say that the cultural influence of Western tonal theory is such that it can apply to a certain extent to most music that we know, or provide a frame of reference to other systems of theory, like that of gamelan, Hindustani classical music, or serialism, though it may not have to be to facilitate enjoyment. There is a lot of music to which Western tonal theory's only application is to point out its own insufficiency as a universal theoretical system. I would say this applies to a lot of avant-garde music (much of which is meant to be processed in a more basic, almost languageless timbral level), stochasticism, and Tibetan Buddhist ritual music. 

There are also subtle differences in thought in popular music "theory" and regular Western theory. For instance, a trait of jazz, which reappeared in R&B and Hip-hop, is the idea of playing "on top of" or "behind the beat" which refers to intentionally playing notes slightly earlier or later, respectively, than they are supposed to occur, sometimes to the point of creating polyrhythms in the latter genres. However, while the concept of polyrhythms and playing on top of or behind the beat have been combined to facilitate interesting grooves, in the context of R&B and Hip-hop, the specific polyrhythm isn't particularly important to understanding the music. What is important is how far behind the beat they are, how much they forsake the grid, rather than the specific interaction of parts. This involves Western theory, but isn't necessarily thought of in the same way as a classical musician. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2018 at 14:23
^It sounds less like a polyrhythm and more like a bit of swing to me. But similar stuff is bothering me. I don't know a lot about what music theory has to say about rhythm and meter, beyond the obvious naming of things (whole notes, half notes, eighth notes, dotted eighth notes...polyrhythms - three over two, five over four...). I have never come across any treatment of how rhythm, time signature and meter interacts with cadence (how it moves phrases to a resolution). If anyone has any knowledge or perspective on this, please enlighten me. Are there rhythms that are thought of as dissonant? A lot of what we get in RIO/Avant is Zappa's musique concrete, or Fred Frith and Henry Kaiser torturing their guitars with pliers in a way that can be more percussive than harmonic in nature.







Edited by HackettFan - May 21 2018 at 14:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2018 at 15:26
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

maybe a branch from the intended discussion, ; a style that has baffled me forever - Free Jazz. What is the purpose ?? i love Soft Machine, Elton Dean, Henry Cow etc. when they break in to an Avante piece of music, it throws me 6 feet the opposite direction of my mindset. i love what these gifted musicians do, but i just don’t get the semmingly ‘randomness’ of it all. a good example is an Elton Dean Quintet album in have - Boundaries. it’s a difficult listen to me (as open as my ears/mind can be) but i persist, enjoy, and even ‘wow’ at this form of music and structure. what am i missing ??

Until I went digging into the origins of Jazz, I could not appreciate it very well. To me it is one of the most interesting methods/genres of creating music. It has roots in everything is what it seems.

There is a great PBS documentary, I think by Ken Burns, called Roots of Jazz. I think it was shown over several episodes. It may not be the ultimate in jazz exploration, but it dives into some neat stuff...Especially the origins in the US which was New Orleans and spreading from there.....

I now know what to look for in record bins on old jazz.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KoaEarthling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2018 at 11:28
What a cool topic. This is my first post here. Granted I only have an associates degree in music theory so perhaps I can't give a detailed answer to the OP. As a previous poster stated there is nothing new under the sun. Beethoven explored syncopation but that didn't make his music ragtime. But syncopation is a defining characteristic of ragtime. So I can only answer what I think is the spirit of the question. I would say that the overall contribution of Prog is the further exploration of musical ideas in rock context. What I mean by that is that a standard rock song presents a melody maybe a counter melody a change and maybe even a reintroduction of those phrases with some kind of dynamic modification. That is pretty much as far as it is explored. Prog however will often take the time to use techniques usually found in other more intellectual (sometimes called "serious music") such as key changes, modified melodies, different chord patterns behind a given melody, forays into "free passages" etal. It also seems to be pretty exclusive to prog to take the time to explore a topical idea i.e. Concept albums. Obviously a classical oratorio could fit the description of a concept album but it isn't in a rock context.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2018 at 11:31
Originally posted by KoaEarthling KoaEarthling wrote:

What a cool topic. This is my first post here. Granted I only have an associates degree in music theory so perhaps I can't give a detailed answer to the OP. As a previous poster stated there is nothing new under the sun. Beethoven explored syncopation but that didn't make his music ragtime. But syncopation is a defining characteristic of ragtime. So I can only answer what I think is the spirit of the question. I would say that the overall contribution of Prog is the further exploration of musical ideas in rock context. What I mean by that is that a standard rock song presents a melody maybe a counter melody a change and maybe even a reintroduction of those phrases with some kind of dynamic modification. That is pretty much as far as it is explored. Prog however will often take the time to use techniques usually found in other more intellectual (sometimes called "serious music") such as key changes, modified melodies, different chord patterns behind a given melody, forays into "free passages" etal. It also seems to be pretty exclusive to prog to take the time to explore a topical idea i.e. Concept albums. Obviously a classical oratorio could fit the description of a concept album but it isn't in a rock context.

Great 1st post!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ForestFriend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2018 at 20:37
In classical music theory, you have things like German, Italian and French augmented 6s... Well I figured Canada should have a chord too, so I have designated F#7add11 as the "Canadian 7th" - for the uninitiated, that's the guitar chord that Alex Lifeson from Rush uses in several songs like Xanadu, Hempispheres, Far Cry and probably a few more.


Edited by ForestFriend - May 22 2018 at 20:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2018 at 22:47
Originally posted by KoaEarthling KoaEarthling wrote:

What a cool topic. This is my first post here. Granted I only have an associates degree in music theory so perhaps I can't give a detailed answer to the OP. As a previous poster stated there is nothing new under the sun. Beethoven explored syncopation but that didn't make his music ragtime. But syncopation is a defining characteristic of ragtime. So I can only answer what I think is the spirit of the question. I would say that the overall contribution of Prog is the further exploration of musical ideas in rock context. What I mean by that is that a standard rock song presents a melody maybe a counter melody a change and maybe even a reintroduction of those phrases with some kind of dynamic modification. That is pretty much as far as it is explored. Prog however will often take the time to use techniques usually found in other more intellectual (sometimes called "serious music") such as key changes, modified melodies, different chord patterns behind a given melody, forays into "free passages" etal. It also seems to be pretty exclusive to prog to take the time to explore a topical idea i.e. Concept albums. Obviously a classical oratorio could fit the description of a concept album but it isn't in a rock context.
Welcome my friend and stay with us. I appreciate your comments here. What you are describing quite eloquently, though, is fusion. Fusion by itself, however, doesn’t add anything conceptual to music theory. The question is up in the air what or if it went anywhere beyond the musical styles Classical, Jazz and Rock that were its main input. Don’t get me wrong. I think Prog is very experimental, just not from the perspective from which this thread is examining it, as things seem so far. You make the point about syncopation being present but trivial in Bach or other Classical, yet integral to Ragtime. I think similarly that odd time signatures, changes in time signature, and changes in key and scale are integral to Symph Prog, far more so than Rock or Jazz, but are they any less integral to Classical music?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2018 at 09:00
On rhythm, I think a lot of composers have ideas about rhythmic tension, but, as far as I know, I don't think there's any formalized theory. Xenakis might possibly have something to say about dimiunition of points on the time access or something.

As far as "odd" time signatures go: they aren't really integral to the common practice period, but were oft-used by modern composers such as Stravinsky, Bartok, Messiaen, Reich, among others. Not really integral I would say. Hindustani classical music has what Western theory would call odd time signatures, but the musicians think of it in terms of smaller subdivisions on a meterless grid. Gamelan music similarly. Odd meters can sometimes be found in eastern European folk music, which is where I think Bartok drew his inspiration from. 

The idea of a time signature in general seems to be an invention of western music. It doesn't seem like it has occurred in other cultures apart form the influence of western European culture. Other cultures with systems of theory tend to think differently about rhythm. I could be wrong about that, though.


Edited by Polymorphia - May 23 2018 at 09:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugo1995 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2020 at 14:39
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I have a masters degree in music theory and teach it to instrumental students who may be ready. As far as music theory goes, there is nothing unique in progressive rock. Anything that exists in prog rock already existed before the arrival of prog rock.

As far as music theory goes, I don't think its possible to come up with anything new anymore, just new untried combinations such as micro-tonal metal, or odd-metered cumbia, bi-tonal swing or hip-hop gamelin etc.
Oh good. You're a good source. I considered putting this in the 'I have a question' forum. I know a good amount music theory, but with gaping holes when it comes to information I haven't prioritized. I must confess I resist the it's not possible to come up with anything new assertion because it strikes me as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nevertheless, I think you may be right, however my preferred explanation is that it is probably due to Prog not really being an actual style per se.

I should also throw out (for everyone) the caution that I carefully worded the questions in the OP such that it does not presume that something needs to be completely new and unattested ("...unusual aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or marginal in other styles..."). There are, for instance, some things that occur in Jazz that had been previously attested in Classical music, but they were ubiquitous and characteristic of Jazz while not characteristic of Classical. Even with this softened level of claim, (a) and (b) look doubtful.



From a music theory standpoint, jazz was a sort of hybrid between European harmonic language and African rhythms and African style group improvisation. The pentatonic scales of the blues man also comes from Africa and figured into jazz too. Of course the jazz artist did some interesting new things with these hybrids.

Whats really interesting is starting in the 1920s - 30s, jazz and classical artists started listening to each other and influencing each other. You can hear parallel developments in people from the classical side such as Gershwin and Stravinsky, as well as on the jazz side from Ellington, Fletcher Henderson and Paul Whiteman. Its one of the more interesting periods in music history to me.

This of course continues from there, for instance in the 60s you could hear Debussy and Ravel in the solos of Herbie Hancock and Bill Evans, or today you can hear Steve Reich in the work of Craig Taborn. On the classical side, its hard to think of a 20th century composer who wasn't influenced by jazz.
A great overlooked 20th century composer is William Grant Still who wrote classical music with the grace and economy of Mozart, but with a blues language.
Cross-pollination is a wonderful thing.

Let me ask this concerning Jazz-Rock Fusion.   John McLaughlin predicated his music on Modal Jazz. Do you have any observation on how much Jazz Fusion followed Modal Jazz as opposed to earlier cadential forms?


(For anyone who doesn't know, cadential music is what most traditional music is, with a chord progression that seeks resolution on a particular chord. Modal Jazz ditches the idea seeking resolution and moves the emphasis away from mirroring a progression of chords to creating a statement with scales.)


Makes me think. Money by Pink Floyd (which peaked at #13 on US Billboard 100) was so close to being top 10. then we could say a song in 7/8 was in the top 10 charts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2020 at 15:14
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

maybe a branch from the intended discussion, ; a style that has baffled me forever - Free Jazz. What is the purpose ?? i love Soft Machine, Elton Dean, Henry Cow etc. when they break in to an Avante piece of music, it throws me 6 feet the opposite direction of my mindset. i love what these gifted musicians do, but i just don’t get the semmingly ‘randomness’ of it all. a good example is an Elton Dean Quintet album in have - Boundaries. it’s a difficult listen to me (as open as my ears/mind can be) but i persist, enjoy, and even ‘wow’ at this form of music and structure. what am i missing ??

Some people like it and some people don't, but free jazz is exactly just that, they are improvising without any set chord progression, tonal center or even steady time. Everyone is just winging it.
For my own tastes, I thought it was kind of interesting when it first appeared in the 60s, but over time it has become somewhat repetitive and predictable.
This reminds me of the "jazz plus jazz equals jazz" scene from an episode of Parks and Recreation:
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ForestFriend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2020 at 15:27
Originally posted by hugo1995 hugo1995 wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I have a masters degree in music theory and teach it to instrumental students who may be ready. As far as music theory goes, there is nothing unique in progressive rock. Anything that exists in prog rock already existed before the arrival of prog rock.

As far as music theory goes, I don't think its possible to come up with anything new anymore, just new untried combinations such as micro-tonal metal, or odd-metered cumbia, bi-tonal swing or hip-hop gamelin etc.
Oh good. You're a good source. I considered putting this in the 'I have a question' forum. I know a good amount music theory, but with gaping holes when it comes to information I haven't prioritized. I must confess I resist the it's not possible to come up with anything new assertion because it strikes me as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nevertheless, I think you may be right, however my preferred explanation is that it is probably due to Prog not really being an actual style per se.

I should also throw out (for everyone) the caution that I carefully worded the questions in the OP such that it does not presume that something needs to be completely new and unattested ("...unusual aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or marginal in other styles..."). There are, for instance, some things that occur in Jazz that had been previously attested in Classical music, but they were ubiquitous and characteristic of Jazz while not characteristic of Classical. Even with this softened level of claim, (a) and (b) look doubtful.



From a music theory standpoint, jazz was a sort of hybrid between European harmonic language and African rhythms and African style group improvisation. The pentatonic scales of the blues man also comes from Africa and figured into jazz too. Of course the jazz artist did some interesting new things with these hybrids.

Whats really interesting is starting in the 1920s - 30s, jazz and classical artists started listening to each other and influencing each other. You can hear parallel developments in people from the classical side such as Gershwin and Stravinsky, as well as on the jazz side from Ellington, Fletcher Henderson and Paul Whiteman. Its one of the more interesting periods in music history to me.

This of course continues from there, for instance in the 60s you could hear Debussy and Ravel in the solos of Herbie Hancock and Bill Evans, or today you can hear Steve Reich in the work of Craig Taborn. On the classical side, its hard to think of a 20th century composer who wasn't influenced by jazz.
A great overlooked 20th century composer is William Grant Still who wrote classical music with the grace and economy of Mozart, but with a blues language.
Cross-pollination is a wonderful thing.

Let me ask this concerning Jazz-Rock Fusion.   John McLaughlin predicated his music on Modal Jazz. Do you have any observation on how much Jazz Fusion followed Modal Jazz as opposed to earlier cadential forms?


(For anyone who doesn't know, cadential music is what most traditional music is, with a chord progression that seeks resolution on a particular chord. Modal Jazz ditches the idea seeking resolution and moves the emphasis away from mirroring a progression of chords to creating a statement with scales.)


Makes me think. Money by Pink Floyd (which peaked at #13 on US Billboard 100) was so close to being top 10. then we could say a song in 7/8 was in the top 10 charts.


A song in 7/4 (as an aside, I consider Money to be in 7/4, not 7/8) did make it to the top 10, #1 in fact, and before Money was even released. Turns out, you don't need to stay in 4/4 to make a hit; all you need is love.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2020 at 06:45
Odd meters and diminished scales (think King Crimson). I Rock this is unique to prog mainly. It turns up in metal from time to time but with no where near the same quantity and inversions that Crim and the RIO world contributed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2020 at 11:35
Originally posted by Larkstongue41 Larkstongue41 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

As far as music theory goes, I don't think its possible to come up with anything new anymore, just new untried combinations such as micro-tonal metal, odd-metered cumbia, bi-tonal swing, poly-rhythmic country ballads or hip-hop gamelan etc.
I have strong doubts about that. People probably thought the same about science and modern technologies a hundred years ago. Then again I know next to nothing about music theory but I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning.

I was thinking that folks pretty much thought that nothing else was possible in music for 300 to 400 years, and even in the movie (although not exact truth I do not think! Amadeus), it even suggests that this usage suggested is not right ... or something like that.

My main concern, is that too much of "progressive" music, has been about THE SOUND ... and not the music, and this is something that developed in the the recording age of music, and amplification ... that was not there before ... thus ... as I have said a hundred times ... UNPLUG IT ... and watch all that "music" disappear to almost nothing ... and this is my main concern for a lot of music that we consider "progressive" ... it will be difficult for us to appreciate if it is unplugged ... because it simply will not sound very good at all ... 

But music, as is the case in ALL ARTS, changes all the time, and my thoughts are that it will continually change into something else that we have not heard before ... what that will be is another question, but since none of us can see the future, the best we can do is say that ... WE DON'T KNOW!

But I'm not surprised to see an "academic" state that it is not possible to come up with anything new anymore ... it's the basis of the academic teaching in music, and if the idea "opens up", then the course goes all over the place and no one can teach it anymore. But the rigidness of its conceptual nature, for me is totally off key ... considering the history of music for the last 400 or 500 years, or even going all the way back to the days of Greece and Rome! 


Edited by moshkito - January 21 2020 at 11:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2020 at 22:09
Of course, Johann Sebastian Bach played only the finest synthesizers!  LOL

The invention of electronic instruments including synth, Mellotron etc. as well as amplified acoustic instruments (guitar, bass, drum etc.) led to a whole host of innovations in music theory.  Have you ever seen sheet music for Tangerine Dream?  See the image in this link:


The invention of these new instruments led to modifications to music notation and composition.  Frank Zappa is one of the best examples I can think of, his music was painstakingly noted and transcribed onto paper.  Every guitar squeal, every drum rimshot, every sound was noted.   




Edited by cstack3 - January 21 2020 at 22:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2020 at 08:26
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

...
On these matters, you have tried in the past to advance an intuitive approach to artistic improvisation. As a deeper theory of what the mind does inside its black box, I don't think invoking intuition amounts to much of anything. 
...

This is where things get murky and difficult. In acting, literature and even painting, the intuitive approach is much more important, but its definition ends up being something that has less to do with what we "know" than anything that we do "not know".

Does it all amount to anything is another story, since (for the most part) the idea in improvisation, specially in acting, and other arts, is TO LEARN how you can more precisely express yourself, by tapping into bits and pieces that are different and are not reliant on ideas and thoughts ... ie, the famous "where is your inspiration", or "where is your this and that?" ... something that for many folks is not about "words" as it is bits and pieces that you feel and sometimes "see" that you might not even be able to describe precisely.

For my tastes, and this part is "opinion" too much of the (so-called) "progressive" music has lost its "inner" form to just sounds and ideas that had been used before ... when we first heard the whole thing, it was all NEW ... and now we consider something this and that simply because it is repeating what we already heard.

Finding your way, in a dark alley, so to speak ... is what all this is about ... and I'm not sure that at that moment you are thinking about some sort of theory to get you out of the dark ... you are looking forward to finding something/anything that will help you get out of the dark ... and this was a very important and valuable experience as an acting exercise, and something that musicians need to do badly ... to find their way through some murky waters, instead of re-writing the same book and ideas.

And yes ... that is very much about me and my "intuitive" ideas, although for me, it's really hard to tell you and everyone else that it has nothing to do with ideas at all ... it has to do with "experiencing" the moment, better and better, and this is where most musicians and actors quit ... for bits and pieces and trickery of things they know!

No issues with the rest of your write up ... 

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

...
Which strategy a musician leans on more, I expect, is a matter of personality.
...

Probably more than just that ... I find, for example that Daevid Allen is the best "beat poet" out there as a musician, since his experiments, and his glissando excursions, and meditations, were about tuning in as a sort of zen thing to the "inside" so your visualization of the music is better interpreted. 

But then, if you read the book by Peter Michael Hamel (From Music to the Self) ... the whole thing becomes really confusing ... and more difficult, although it really exposes how many more people are looking past the limitations of westernized music to find something else!

(We did not even bring this into the discussion, btw!)

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

...
There is another logical possibility; that music theory has not advanced because of Prog because it has not kept up with Prog. I have no examples yet, and may never have.

Either that, or as it has been said in some cases here, it has all become just pop music ... and to me, that is the greatest killer of it all, and my greatest fear ... we need to elevate the music past the pop music thing, and that also means looking at it as a top ten, or top 100 ... and simply discussing it as a "band/composer" and not just an album!

And until we "elevate" it some more, I'm not sure that we will ever find/accept anything in it as valuable in "music theory" ... something along these lines ... it just hurts ... there are so many pieces of music that deserve to be placed along the line of great musical pieces for the 20th century ... and yet ... all we think of in TARKUS ... is just another rock song, when we can also hear it in a piano, by a blind woman, what a magnificent piece of composition it is ... as modern as you and I could EVER/FOREVER consider ... and totally well done ... but I am not sure that "academics" are even willing to accept those kinds of beauty and give it some credit ... the fact that it was rock, or amplified, or electronic, should have nothing to do with it ... the fact that it made an impact is what this is about ... and it did, and still does in Rachel Flowers amazing hands ... but will Keith ever get the credit he deserves and died for?

That's my scary thought for the day!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2020 at 08:46
Very good questions posed in the OP, and I can't answer with any real authority but I would be inclined to say 'probably not' As innovative as prog rock can be in terms of combining musical styles, utilising complex rhythmic components, unusual chord progressions and odd tuning, these approaches exist in music elsewhere, notably in jazz and classical music; polyrhthyms, dissonance, counterpoint etc etc...

Am I misunderstanding?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2020 at 12:56
Isn't this thread sort of emphasising the technical snobbery that is / was levelled at prog fans/musicians by the new wave fans in now/1976???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2020 at 19:13
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Isn't this thread sort of emphasising the technical snobbery that is / was levelled at prog fans/musicians by the new wave fans in now/1976???

I'll answer this as the OP (who is quite astonished to see his thread revived, BTW). I see no relationship to snobbery. This thread explored whether Prog has made any unique contribution to music theory not attributable to any prior style of music. It is an interesting question. Interesting questions are not the substance of snobbery. As I stated in the opening post, Rock moved the needle on parallel fifths when it contributed power chords. Do we speak of that as snobbery. No, it just is what it is. In point of fact, no one was able to point to any similar contribution made by Prog, and so it seems Prog may have made no comparable mark upon the annals of music history. Does that sound like snobbery?

Now, (to anyone reading) be not confused. Individual Prog artists have made their unique mark upon music theory. The question the thread poses pertains to Prog at large. So far the answer is 'no'. If that's correct, it should be remarkable for a style that embraces philosophy of experimentation. I suspect the answer is that Prog is not truly a "style" of music, but I still find it no less remarkable.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2020 at 19:56
Originally posted by Moshkito Moshkito wrote:

"Finding your way, in a dark alley, so to speak ... is what all this is about ... and I'm not sure that at that moment you are thinking about some sort of theory to get you out of the dark ... you are looking forward to finding something/anything that will help you get out of the dark ... and this was a very important and valuable experience as an acting exercise, and something that musicians need to do badly ... to find their way through some murky waters, instead of re-writing the same book and ideas."

For the record, this thread is about the potential for NOT re-writing the same book and ideas.

As for music theory, it is not the straight jacket that you make it out to be. It is no more so than grammar is a straight jacket on poetry. Grammar is in fact an aid to poetry contributing various aspects of meaning, which can be altered if desired per poetic license. Music theory does much the same when dissonance is interjected into a cadence. Nor is music really a theory in the scientific sense, as in science a researcher is not allowed to create his own data and use that to alter theory. Music theory of course allows for precisely that.




Edited by HackettFan - January 22 2020 at 20:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2020 at 20:25
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Very good questions posed in the OP, and I can't answer with any real authority but I would be inclined to say 'probably not' As innovative as prog rock can be in terms of combining musical styles, utilising complex rhythmic components, unusual chord progressions and odd tuning, these approaches exist in music elsewhere, notably in jazz and classical music; polyrhthyms, dissonance, counterpoint etc etc...

Am I misunderstanding?
No, you understand with genuine clarity. I'd still be interested to find something (relatively) unique to Prog. My expectation is that we may be more likely to find novel innovative music theory in a given sub-genre.




A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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