Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Any Prog characteristics in music theory?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Any Prog characteristics in music theory?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
Message
Easy Money View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10334
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2020 at 21:16
As mentioned earlier, I have a masters in theory and I teach this stuff for a living, I have been for about 30 years now.
Music theory does not dictate or create anything, music theory just explains what's going on in a piece of music, such as what scales did they use, what rhythms etc etc. Its more similar to someone who collects insects and tries to determine their species.

The music is already created, music theory is just an attempt to define and explain what happened in this piece of music.
As far as new frontiers for Western music theory go, trying to notate some African multiple layered poly-rhythms have proven to be quite difficult, but figuring out a notation for different waves of guitar feedback would also be a challenge.

Edited by Easy Money - January 22 2020 at 21:20
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6744
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2020 at 21:32
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

As mentioned earlier, I have a masters in theory and I teach this stuff for a living, I have been for about 30 years now.
Music theory does not dictate or create anything, music theory just explains what's going on in a piece of music, such as what scales did they use, what rhythms etc etc. Its more similar to someone who collects insects and tries to determine their species.

The music is already created, music theory is just an attempt to define and explain what happened in this piece of music.
As far as new frontiers for Western music theory go, trying to notate some African multiple layered poly-rhythms have proven to be quite difficult, but figuring out a notation for different waves of guitar feedback would also be a challenge.

Excellent response!  Many years ago, I was a member of the university chorus at the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign (noted for its music program), and we did an experimental piece in which vocalists made different vocalizations like *bop!* and *bing!* according to a type of sheet music notation we were given.  There were some instrumentalists who did things like play trumpet notes while swinging the trumpet from one direction to another, inducing a Dopler shift to the tone.....it was a very cool experience.  


I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
Back to Top
ForestFriend View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2017
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 680
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ForestFriend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2020 at 21:32
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but maybe some of Zappa's contributions might count?

I'm thinking Xenochrony - layering multiple recordings of unrelated performances. Granted, it's similar to Charles Ives' idea of ensembles performing two or more different pieces at the same time, but by using recorded performances, Xenochrony allows the musicians to perform without influencing each other.

Or maybe his approach to conducting his band would count; the way he would conduct ensemble improvisations, or use gestures to introduce spontaneous changes in the way a composed piece was performed.
Back to Top
M27Barney View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2020 at 06:11
I'm more interested if Van Halen copied Hackett from SEBTP....and everybody thinks he invented hammer on hammer off technique...😎
Back to Top
HackettFan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2020 at 12:59
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

As mentioned earlier, I have a masters in theory and I teach this stuff for a living, I have been for about 30 years now.
Music theory does not dictate or create anything, music theory just explains what's going on in a piece of music, such as what scales did they use, what rhythms etc etc. Its more similar to someone who collects insects and tries to determine their species.

The music is already created, music theory is just an attempt to define and explain what happened in this piece of music.
As far as new frontiers for Western music theory go, trying to notate some African multiple layered poly-rhythms have proven to be quite difficult, but figuring out a notation for different waves of guitar feedback would also be a challenge.

Right on. Thank you.



A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
Back to Top
M27Barney View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2020 at 14:06
As I see it. Music theorists are like proffesional football pundits, who disect the game you have just watched and dictate the professional view...I always wind thru their pointless platitudes if I can..and make my own view on the game I have just watched...
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2020 at 05:36
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

As I see it. Music theorists are like proffesional football pundits, who disect the game you have just watched and dictate the professional view...I always wind thru their pointless platitudes if I can..and make my own view on the game I have just watched...


Given the choice, I would rather receive an objective explanation of how music is constructed from someone who has been paid to both play and teach the subject. I really can't see why your opinion on the music to hand has any relevance to this end. No-one cares if you like/dislike it. Those interested in music theory just want to learn more about the techniques and practices that were used to put it together. Are you Robbie Savage?Wink
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2020 at 06:02
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

Odd meters and diminished scales (think King Crimson). I Rock this is unique to prog mainly. It turns up in metal from time to time but with no where near the same quantity and inversions that Crim and the RIO world contributed.


Never Mind the Bollocks BalkansWink. There was a time when I shared this view but that was before I started to explore Eastern European folk music. Macedonian children sing and dance their playground skipping rhymes effortlessly in 22/16. The indigenous peasant music of the Balkans offers meters like 10/8, 22/8, 7/8, 7/16, 5/8, 9/8, 11/8, 25/16 (the list goes on) but even here the arithmetical 'dumbing down' betrays the lazy arrogance of the art music snob who will never appreciate that Balkan rhythms are really just combinations of short dance steps (2s) and long dance steps (3's) which even vary in performance interpretation from village to village. These ancient and venerable pulses are not a good fit for any of our cramped academic theoretical analysis.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16148
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2020 at 06:15
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

... The indigenous peasant music of the Balkans offers meters like 10/8, 22/8, 7/8, 7/16, 5/8, 9/8, 11/8, 25/16 (the list goes on) but even here the arithmetical 'dumbing down' betrays the lazy arrogance of the art music snob who will never appreciate that Balkan rhythms are really just combinations of short dance steps (2s) and long dance steps (3's) which even vary in performance interpretation from village to village. These ancient and venerable pulses are not a good fit for any of our cramped academic theoretical analysis.

Which is one of my points about music from all over the world ... and how 1 or 2 countries "think" they own the definitions of all music, and the rest of the world is uneducated and not worthy of attention and couldn't possibly have music that is different, or better. It is, one thing that is absolutely insane ... when folks will go gagagoogoo over ApocalipseBullPucky, and then will never even consider Maria Bethania's Carcara done almost 5 years earlier about a metal dragon ... Brazil, couldn't possibly have any good music compared to the over rated media bound stuff in America and England! But you really think that many folks in "progressive" this and that will ever listen to something else? AND, I know the same thing happens on the academic circles, where the only things listened to are the "accepted" ones ... never anything else!

I thought, in the late 60's that the Ravi Shankar and Yehudi Menuhin thing (East meets West) would be a great step in that direction, but when I saw the show in Chicago, the fat old broads at the end of the concert were coming out and one said ... "how could any of that improvisation be called music?" ... totally missing the point of the whole thing ... !!! It was a show for the ages ... one of the loveliest thing ever ... but you think that it will be appreciated, even for when it was done?


Edited by moshkito - January 24 2020 at 06:16
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2020 at 06:19
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Macedonian children sing and dance their playground skipping rhymes effortlessly in 22/16. The indigenous peasant music of the Balkans offers meters like 10/8, 22/8, 7/8, 7/16, 5/8, 9/8, 11/8, 25/16 (the list goes on)..
Wow, Balkan prog. Time for me to dig my zither out of the attic! Wink

Edited by SteveG - January 24 2020 at 06:21
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
HackettFan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2020 at 13:40
Originally posted by Moshkito Moshkito wrote:

Which is one of my points about music from all over the world ... and how 1 or 2 countries "think" they own the definitions of all music, and the rest of the world is uneducated and not worthy of attention and couldn't possibly have music that is different, or better.
^Straw man fallacy. Here's an actual academically trained musician, who does not think he owns the definitions of all music, enriching us with info on 9/8, Balkan dance and a few other things:





A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
Back to Top
HackettFan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2020 at 14:20
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

As I see it. Music theorists are like proffesional football pundits, who disect the game you have just watched and dictate the professional view...I always wind thru their pointless platitudes if I can..and make my own view on the game I have just watched...
I just want to point out in what way this analogy falters. You're trying to discount music theory with the pointlessness of pundits dissecting a football game. However, it is pointless only because they are not participants, not because anything about dissecting the game is inherently wrong. There is of course a real value to players and coaches dissecting the game in order to provide guidance on future performances and this is the real analogy. Their jobs rely on doing it and doing it well, in fact. Just replace players and coaches with musicians and dissecting the game with music theory and the analogy is corrected. (This is not to say that SOME sports fans/music listeners cannot also get something valuable from similar thought processes).



A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6744
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2020 at 16:41
I have a Mellotron with tapes of Mongolian throat singers, it sounds like this: 


I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2020 at 21:35
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

I have a Mellotron with tapes of Mongolian throat singers, it sounds like this: 




I've always been fascinated by this phenomenon and am still unsure what makes it possible. When anyone sings a single note, you get it's fundamental frequency e.g the pitch 'A' at 440 Hz but also the overtone series of frequencies above that although these are practically inaudible to human hearing. With the Mongolian throat singers however, they seem to be able to amplify these overtone frequencies using their bodies to produce what are erm...chords/drones?! I read somewhere that this practice wreaks havoc with your inner organs and many throat singers don't live past 50? Shocked Don't try this at home kids.


Edited by ExittheLemming - January 24 2020 at 21:36
Back to Top
M27Barney View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2020 at 02:34
Im sure the panheads underwear is positively dripping like a siberian thaw after listening to that...me, i'd use that to scare cats off my front garden...

Edited by M27Barney - January 25 2020 at 02:36
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23098
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2020 at 02:37
I’m not sure it takes a panhead to appreciate throatsinging. I played that for my mum yesterday evening and was somewhat surprised to learn that she found it rather beautiful and serene in an odd way. Her normal favourites include Roy Orbison, Shakin Stevens, Boney M and ABBA
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
M27Barney View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2020 at 04:57
The last sentence explains the prior unforseen predilection for mongolian throat clearing....anything sounds good after playing ABBA even the sound of a hurtling 3 mile wide meteor as it tears through the atmosphere prior to slamming into mother earth...
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2020 at 05:20
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

The last sentence explains the prior unforseen predilection for mongolian throat clearing....anything sounds good after playing ABBA even the sound of a hurtling 3 mile wide meteor as it tears through the atmosphere prior to slamming into mother earth...


If it lands anywhere near Swinton we can call it the music of the spheres Big smile
Back to Top
Mascodagama View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 5111
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2020 at 06:55
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

The last sentence explains the prior unforseen predilection for mongolian throat clearing....anything sounds good after playing ABBA even the sound of a hurtling 3 mile wide meteor as it tears through the atmosphere prior to slamming into mother earth...


If it lands anywhere near Swinton we can call it the music of the spheres Big smile
Henceforth Barney shall be known as Tilda?
Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
Bandcamp Profile
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23098
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2020 at 08:33
I’ve really missed this place
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.164 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.