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What is post-rock exactly?
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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 19 2018 at 20:38
This is a question i've had for a while but only now thinking about starting a discussion about it.

Post-rock is generally defined in a truncated way as a form of experimental rock that uses rock instruments to explore non traditional song structure often with emphasis on textures and timbre.

My question is this then. Why doesn't RIO and avant-prog count as post-rock? They clearly fit that definition in many cases.

And why aren't artists like Glenn Branca included. He clearly used rock instrumentation, in his case with a post-punk ethos in order to creater minimalist avant-garde classical musical timbres and textures.

It also seems like much Krautrock could fit this definition as well.

While some post-rock is fairly obvious that comes from the 90s and after for it's crescendocore type ethos, Glenn Branca and others that came before have many albums that clearly present the same post-rock format albeit in a completely different way. 

By all means, shouldn't they all be considered post-rock?

I'm trying to expand the definition a little in order for it to make more sense.

What think you all?

Wikipedia:

P.A. (only post-rock not math rock)

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Good question, and interesting too. 

There DOES seem to be something coherent in the sound of the main post-rock bands that warrants a common category, but it is hard to say exactly what makes it "post"-rock (in a hard-to-define but you-know-it-when you-it kindof thing). 

And it is true that some of the recent post-rock music sounds a lot like 70s-era Krautrock, and/or RIO. Also, even some of the main post-rock artists (i.e. Godspeed YBE) shy away from, or even disavow, the term 'post-rock' completely.

And there is the issue of the "post" being a non-signifier, or rather, only signifying that which it isn't or which it has surpassed, which means "rock". But this is non-sensical as much of this music is clearly "rock" or at least veering into rock territory enough that many (most?) listeners would say it sounds like rock if asked (e.g. most Explosions in the Sky, etc).
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All this makes me think about why I dislike labels. Obviously you are right, but many people will disagree, based on a lot of rules that apply only in arguments, having nothing to do with the music. Lately (meaning the last 20 years or so), I only care if the music is good. If I like it, I don't really care which label is under, I will buy and listen to it.
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As I've always understood it and heard it, post rock is basically minimalism + rock. This can still be quite board, but genres (and subgenres) generally are anyway. 

As for why RIO isn't post-rock...this is a bit of a dick answer but...just listen to it. None of the original RIO bands sound anything like minimalism or postrock, and the bands that they've spawned sound much more like them than anything posty. (Art Zoyd is the obvious counter here, but they technically weren't original RIO members and they are much more classically influence/much less rock overall to really fit.)

I'm no Glenn Branca expert, so my thoughts might be complete horse sh*t, but I've always thought of him as a classical/avant musician not a rock one and thus has no place on this site. 
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What I got the picture about postrock, I donīt like it for itīs coldness (for example Godspeed You! Black Emperor). Then again Jambinai is said postrock and I love that band!

Anyway, genres still are not important to me, only great music is.

Also, I think some artists got pimples if their music is called some previous term. I have always find math-rock -term quite artificial, to me it seems some skillful punkrockers hated prog-term, so they couldnīt call their music punkprog. Anyway most of mathrock sounds really boring to me, so itīs ok to call it that way.


Edited by Mortte - May 19 2018 at 23:32
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I once suggested that post rock got at least some of it's inspiration from kraut rock and someone chopped my head off for saying that. 
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I think specially Circleīs early stuff could have called postrock, but they have liked to always use krautrock instead of it.
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In my brain, post rock = the rock that came after the rock we already had, but for some reason can't be called alternative or pop punk/rock etc.

Post rock is my least favorite label of all time.

I feel like it's ambiguous, and purposely so, so it can contain a large amount of bands nobody wants to categorize any other way. It's a lazy label IMHO.

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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I once suggested that post rock got at least some of it's inspiration from kraut rock and someone chopped my head off for saying that. 

So if you're head is missing then you're thinking with whaaaaat? LOL

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Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

I think specially Circleīs early stuff could have called postrock, but they have liked to always use krautrock instead of it.

Exactly. Krautrock really doesn't define anything except an more or less German based sound that took the blues out of rock and took it elsewhere and even then some Krautrock bands are more hard rock blues based and still get lumped into that category. Maybe it's time to redefine or expand these terms' definitions so that it makes more sense. As time goes on and musical genres blur, it's getting harder and harder to pin down.

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Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

As I've always understood it and heard it, post rock is basically minimalism + rock. This can still be quite board, but genres (and subgenres) generally are anyway. 

As for why RIO isn't post-rock...this is a bit of a dick answer but...just listen to it. None of the original RIO bands sound anything like minimalism or postrock, and the bands that they've spawned sound much more like them than anything posty. (Art Zoyd is the obvious counter here, but they technically weren't original RIO members and they are much more classically influence/much less rock overall to really fit.)

I'm no Glenn Branca expert, so my thoughts might be complete horse sh*t, but I've always thought of him as a classical/avant musician not a rock one and thus has no place on this site. 

Yes. Minimalism definately seems to be part of this equationa but why aren't shoegaze artists like My BLoody Valentine included?

Also, why is post-rock considered progressive if its minimalism? Personally i find it to be art rock based for sure but progressive? Isn't that term reserved for complexities?

I have been wrestling with this idea regarding Krautrock as well. Not all of it seems progressive to me. Bands like Neu! that utilize the motorik style and its repetitve rhythmic drive are also very minimalistic, yet somehow they got lumped into the Krautrock world. This opens up a whole new set of questions about progressive rock in general i understand but much post-rock seems rather simple.

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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

In my brain, post rock = the rock that came after the rock we already had, but for some reason can't be called alternative or pop punk/rock etc.

Post rock is my least favorite label of all time.

I feel like it's ambiguous, and purposely so, so it can contain a large amount of bands nobody wants to categorize any other way. It's a lazy label IMHO.

That makes sense. The term didn't exist in the 70s but neither did proto-prog or proto-punk and that hasn't stopped some form retroactively applying it to music that never defined themselves as either. 

Post definately means "after" but the 70s music that could qualify came "after" rock and roll of the 50s and 60s so i don't think that alone is a good enough definition. 

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Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

All this makes me think about why I dislike labels. Obviously you are right, but many people will disagree, based on a lot of rules that apply only in arguments, having nothing to do with the music. Lately (meaning the last 20 years or so), I only care if the music is good. If I like it, I don't really care which label is under, I will buy and listen to it.

Well, labels do have their place. I'm actually a fan of Rate Your Music's policy of having multiple labels because many bands and albums clearly have many styles of music going on.

The problem with labels is obviously their limitations. As a biology major in college i understand the nomenclature thing and even though i agree with you about labels, they still serve a purpose even if they are imperfect and subject to our lack of complete understanding of something when we create them. This same murkiness exists in the horticulture world where vegetables are hybridized. Tangelo. Tangerine or grapefruit. Answer: BOTH! Should it get it's own category of fruit? I dunno. Yikes.

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Post shares the same dilemmas as every other musical genre out there in that the first wave sounded new, unique and wholly worthy of slapping a new sticker on. Then after a while and the music has seeped into different corners and crevices of the world, the genre becomes a charicature and easy to spot just by a few noteworthy flavours/manoevres, and you effectively get these discussions.
Post rock, at least to me, is just about the easiest genre to spot from afar. Ever since Godspeed and Mogwai paved the way with their trademark build-ups and crescendos, the genre seems to have set pretty quickly. Just like back in the 70s where Yes probably didn't start out trying to make dedicated symph prog but nevertheless was part of generating a particular sound that was adopted by thousands of similar bands.
As for the dilemmas this whole thing opens up? Well how many albums on PA, in any genre, are truly progressive?

Post rock can both be incredibly simple (like NEU!) or highly complex (think Tortoise fx)...neither extremity deters progressive thinking or playing.
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^ I know what you're saying David, however what Godspeed YBE did was extremely derivitive of what Glenn Branca did in 1980. Check out this track from his EP Lesson No. 1 and you can hear where Godspeed got much of their ideas from with the whole crescendocore thing. However it isn't called post-rock in restrospective but rather falls under no wave, post-minimalism, totalism and noise rock.

Should he be here? At least as prog related perhaps?

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Very simple: Boring!
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Originally posted by TheH TheH wrote:

Very simple: Boring!

I disagree. I love the most complex music possible but i also love hypnotic droning that has subtlties that emulate geometrical patterns in sound. Certainly not sing along music for sure :P

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by TheH TheH wrote:

Very simple: Boring!

I disagree. I love the most complex music possible but i also love hypnotic droning that has subtlties that emulate geometrical patterns in sound. Certainly not sing along music for sure :P
 
I simply can't tell one song from the other, not even bands.
 
If I want hypnotic droning there is still Spacerock or Psych or Kraut etc.
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Originally posted by TheH TheH wrote:

Very simple: Boring!

what a childish answer... 
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Originally posted by TheH TheH wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by TheH TheH wrote:

Very simple: Boring!

I disagree. I love the most complex music possible but i also love hypnotic droning that has subtlties that emulate geometrical patterns in sound. Certainly not sing along music for sure :P
 
I simply can't tell one song from the other, not even bands.
 
If I want hypnotic droning there is still Spacerock or Psych or Kraut etc.

It's definately a form of advanced listening. The differences are sublte and patience is required. Yeah, it's sorta like counting molecultes on an amoeba under a microscope but some of us do like this stuff. Admittedly it's not my most preferred style of music but when certain bands do it right, it's pretty cool and as i've already stated some Kraut could easily fall into the post tag and much of it has adopted psyche and space characteristics as well.

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