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Live vs. studio: A different approach than usual

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    Posted: May 30 2018 at 09:59
the controversy of live vs. studio albums has often come up in this forum; there are some (probably the majority) that prefer studio albums and some that prefer live albums.

the given reasons are usually the following: those who prefer studio albums claim that there is more "perfection" in studio albums; the musicians don't make any flaws, and each single musical voice is clearly distinctive. those  who prefer live albums say they love how the musicians communicate with each other and that the music in live recordings sometimes greatly differs from the studio recordings. but there is one aspect of live music that is never mentioned, at least not to my knowledge.

one of the so-called strengths of studio recordings, the distinctive musical voices, is actually their very weakness. (voices from the camp of studio album lovers: "huh"? "are you nuts"? "weakness? why weakness"?) let me explain.

the different musical voices of live recordings lead to acoustic refraction which creates a huge tapestry of overtones which very much enriches the listening experience. these overtones are totally lacking in studio recordings. and this absence of overtones is what does in my experience make studio albums sound sterile.

this is even more so in the digital age. in the analogue age the instruments were recorded with microphones, and there was some acoustic refraction from the walls of the studio. but when the instrumental sound is directly fed into the recording device with a cable even this gets lost.

I for my part much prefer the overtones


Edited by BaldJean - May 31 2018 at 11:35


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argo2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 10:27
I think it really depends on the quality of the live recording. There are some live albums I love while others I find lacking for some reason (poorly recorded, the acoustics of the venue or performance quality)

Plus sometimes a band just finds magic on stage that can be lacking in the studio. Sometime a band is playing live & everything just clicks & you get something very special.

 I do understand what you are saying about overtones, ambient noise, the natural reverb in a room etc..
In some cases that can add to the performance. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 11:27
I prefer studio albums, but really not for any "perfection" reasons. I am totally analog guy. The reason is that I think you make more creative choises in the studio, in live situation youīre just playing, no time to think what makes this song more "colourful". But of course, live records have more "band" feeling that you can very rare achieve in the studio, there are also really many live albums I enjoy a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 12:09
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

I prefer studio albums, but really not for any "perfection" reasons. I am totally analog guy. The reason is that I think you make more creative choises in the studio, in live situation youīre just playing, no time to think what makes this song more "colourful". But of course, live records have more "band" feeling that you can very rare achieve in the studio, there are also really many live albums I enjoy a lot.

I am exactly of the opposite opinion. it is live albums that are more colorful because of the overtones


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 14:42
Kraan - Live ‘75. ‘Nuff said !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 15:56
I love concert albums and have many of them in different genres, not many within prog rock. There are many gems like UFO~Strangers, Scorpions~Tokyo Tapes, EW&F~Gratitude. A lot of them give you the emotions of being there.
What has partly become the death of well recorded emotional music has been the digital era, or the laptop/bedroom studio. Bands that record their tracks in different states/countries and then email the files to a mastering engineer to put them together, especially vocals.

All studio recordings are live as they use mics to capture the sound so there should be some of this overtones or flaws, but the digital processing probably removes it or corrects for it. Recording it to tape preserves these emotions and mastering with little to no digital processing should leave them....That's why records are making a comeback, the overtones and emotions are overflowing in the grooves! Some of us have always known that..... Thumbs Up

Having a band in the studio all together and recording in one take is the key to including these overtones and emotion into the music, the players feed off each other.....Whether in the studio or on stage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 17:23
Iron Maiden - The Book of Souls and Meshuggah - The Violent Sleep of Reason were both recorded ‘live in the studio’ and it really shows for the better. Less clinical, more organic and natural, especially considering these are Metal albums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 21:59
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

I prefer studio albums, but really not for any "perfection" reasons. I am totally analog guy. The reason is that I think you make more creative choises in the studio, in live situation youīre just playing, no time to think what makes this song more "colourful". But of course, live records have more "band" feeling that you can very rare achieve in the studio, there are also really many live albums I enjoy a lot.

I am exactly of the opposite opinion. it is live albums that are more colorful because of the overtones
I am not sure, do I fully understand what you mean about overtones, but I think you can do that also in the studio if you just want. About most of new studio recordings I agree with you, todayīs "style" seem to be to make a package that really hasnīt got any sharpness or anything that might cause disturbance in some of the listeners. But that sixties-seventies analog studio sound, I just really love it, also there were then any need to try to cover all the mistakes that I think make music just natural.
 
I think there are live recordings that should not ever released. Itīs just in live playing there sometimes musicians canīt create that atmosphere, where it sounds like the whole band is as one. But when they can, it of course is really magical (have to say havenīt heard any poor live recording from King Crimson, but on the other hand really havenīt heard even half of them).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2018 at 01:28
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

I prefer studio albums, but really not for any "perfection" reasons. I am totally analog guy. The reason is that I think you make more creative choises in the studio, in live situation youīre just playing, no time to think what makes this song more "colourful". But of course, live records have more "band" feeling that you can very rare achieve in the studio, there are also really many live albums I enjoy a lot.

I am exactly of the opposite opinion. it is live albums that are more colorful because of the overtones
I am not sure, do I fully understand what you mean about overtones, but I think you can do that also in the studio if you just want. About most of new studio recordings I agree with you, todayīs "style" seem to be to make a package that really hasnīt got any sharpness or anything that might cause disturbance in some of the listeners. But that sixties-seventies analog studio sound, I just really love it, also there were then any need to try to cover all the mistakes that I think make music just natural.
 
I think there are live recordings that should not ever released. Itīs just in live playing there sometimes musicians canīt create that atmosphere, where it sounds like the whole band is as one. But when they can, it of course is really magical (have to say havenīt heard any poor live recording from King Crimson, but on the other hand really havenīt heard even half of them).

you obviously don't understand what overtones are all about. there is no button you can press, no knob you can turn, no switch you can flip and no slider you can move to "add overtones", like you can for example add distortion or reverb. you can only do it in the studio if you record live, else the overtones won't appear. it's a simple acoustic phenomenon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone#%22Overtones%22_in_choral_music

what is said here about overtones in choral singing also happens when several instruments play at the same time or a combination of voices and instruments


Edited by BaldJean - May 31 2018 at 02:11


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2018 at 02:16
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

I prefer studio albums, but really not for any "perfection" reasons. I am totally analog guy. The reason is that I think you make more creative choises in the studio, in live situation youīre just playing, no time to think what makes this song more "colourful". But of course, live records have more "band" feeling that you can very rare achieve in the studio, there are also really many live albums I enjoy a lot.

I am exactly of the opposite opinion. it is live albums that are more colorful because of the overtones
I am not sure, do I fully understand what you mean about overtones, but I think you can do that also in the studio if you just want. About most of new studio recordings I agree with you, todayīs "style" seem to be to make a package that really hasnīt got any sharpness or anything that might cause disturbance in some of the listeners. But that sixties-seventies analog studio sound, I just really love it, also there were then any need to try to cover all the mistakes that I think make music just natural.
 
I think there are live recordings that should not ever released. Itīs just in live playing there sometimes musicians canīt create that atmosphere, where it sounds like the whole band is as one. But when they can, it of course is really magical (have to say havenīt heard any poor live recording from King Crimson, but on the other hand really havenīt heard even half of them).

you obviously don't understand what overtones are all about. there is no button you can press, no knob you can turn, no switch you can flip and no slider you can move to "add overtones", like you can for example add distortion or reverb. you can only do it in the studio if you record live, else the overtones won't appear. it's a simple acoustic phenomenon.


what is said here about overtones in choral singing also happens when several instruments play at the same time or a combination of voices and instruments
Although Beatles started to record their albums in Sgt as one instrument/one track -system, it has been quite common also these days at least in rockbands that basic instruments are recorded together (guitars, bass, drums), then adding more to those basic tracks. Also many producers put microphones into room so they can get very natural sounding band sound when recording those basic tracks. Also, I think there still are some live recordings in the studio these days, in fifties and begin of sixties the records were made mostly live in the studio, sometimes even vocals. Steve Albini has been one of those producers, who has always try to make really live sounding studio albums, but anyway heīs really not my favourite producers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2018 at 03:54
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

I prefer studio albums, but really not for any "perfection" reasons. I am totally analog guy. The reason is that I think you make more creative choises in the studio, in live situation youīre just playing, no time to think what makes this song more "colourful". But of course, live records have more "band" feeling that you can very rare achieve in the studio, there are also really many live albums I enjoy a lot.

I am exactly of the opposite opinion. it is live albums that are more colorful because of the overtones
I am not sure, do I fully understand what you mean about overtones, but I think you can do that also in the studio if you just want. About most of new studio recordings I agree with you, todayīs "style" seem to be to make a package that really hasnīt got any sharpness or anything that might cause disturbance in some of the listeners. But that sixties-seventies analog studio sound, I just really love it, also there were then any need to try to cover all the mistakes that I think make music just natural.
 
I think there are live recordings that should not ever released. Itīs just in live playing there sometimes musicians canīt create that atmosphere, where it sounds like the whole band is as one. But when they can, it of course is really magical (have to say havenīt heard any poor live recording from King Crimson, but on the other hand really havenīt heard even half of them).

you obviously don't understand what overtones are all about. there is no button you can press, no knob you can turn, no switch you can flip and no slider you can move to "add overtones", like you can for example add distortion or reverb. you can only do it in the studio if you record live, else the overtones won't appear. it's a simple acoustic phenomenon.


what is said here about overtones in choral singing also happens when several instruments play at the same time or a combination of voices and instruments
Although Beatles started to record their albums in Sgt as one instrument/one track -system, it has been quite common also these days at least in rockbands that basic instruments are recorded together (guitars, bass, drums), then adding more to those basic tracks. Also many producers put microphones into room so they can get very natural sounding band sound when recording those basic tracks. Also, I think there still are some live recordings in the studio these days, in fifties and begin of sixties the records were made mostly live in the studio, sometimes even vocals. Steve Albini has been one of those producers, who has always try to make really live sounding studio albums, but anyway heīs really not my favourite producers.

if instruments and/or voices are recorded live together then there will be overtones.

I have a very fine hearing, and these overtones are something I especially pay attention to


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2018 at 10:44
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

I prefer studio albums, but really not for any "perfection" reasons. I am totally analog guy. The reason is that I think you make more creative choises in the studio, in live situation youīre just playing, no time to think what makes this song more "colourful". But of course, live records have more "band" feeling that you can very rare achieve in the studio, there are also really many live albums I enjoy a lot.

I am exactly of the opposite opinion. it is live albums that are more colorful because of the overtones
I am not sure, do I fully understand what you mean about overtones, but I think you can do that also in the studio if you just want. About most of new studio recordings I agree with you, todayīs "style" seem to be to make a package that really hasnīt got any sharpness or anything that might cause disturbance in some of the listeners. But that sixties-seventies analog studio sound, I just really love it, also there were then any need to try to cover all the mistakes that I think make music just natural.
 
I think there are live recordings that should not ever released. Itīs just in live playing there sometimes musicians canīt create that atmosphere, where it sounds like the whole band is as one. But when they can, it of course is really magical (have to say havenīt heard any poor live recording from King Crimson, but on the other hand really havenīt heard even half of them).

you obviously don't understand what overtones are all about. there is no button you can press, no knob you can turn, no switch you can flip and no slider you can move to "add overtones", like you can for example add distortion or reverb. you can only do it in the studio if you record live, else the overtones won't appear. it's a simple acoustic phenomenon.


what is said here about overtones in choral singing also happens when several instruments play at the same time or a combination of voices and instruments
Although Beatles started to record their albums in Sgt as one instrument/one track -system, it has been quite common also these days at least in rockbands that basic instruments are recorded together (guitars, bass, drums), then adding more to those basic tracks. Also many producers put microphones into room so they can get very natural sounding band sound when recording those basic tracks. Also, I think there still are some live recordings in the studio these days, in fifties and begin of sixties the records were made mostly live in the studio, sometimes even vocals. Steve Albini has been one of those producers, who has always try to make really live sounding studio albums, but anyway heīs really not my favourite producers.

All studios are "multi-track" studios. Whether that is a 2-track or 32-track present day studio, Beatles did not start anything you mention, I don't get what you mean by that anyhow?
Sgt Pepper was recorded using a 4-track reel to reel deck. What the Abbey Road engineers (not the Beatles themselves) did was to build on the concept of splicing 1 or several tracks onto say a 4 track machine that gave them a multi-track ability say 6-8 tracks. Which in the US studios, 8-track mastering decks already existed in the mid 60's, just not across the pond yet.

Recording "live" in the studio and using little to no compression, no EQ and maybe some reverb should allow any overtones to exist. Problem is digital processing is too clinical and taking a 24bit master and creating a 16bit CD version dumbs down the music and all the tidbits that might have been captured in the studio disappear....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2018 at 18:50
For me it depends on the band....how well they played that night , and how well it was recorded....for the most part studio playing usually sounds better (more accurate) but then you do miss those 'overtones' alluded to above.
One of the few live albums I like better than the studio versions is Allman Bros Live At Fillmore East...those live tracks really are special.....and some bands are simply special live and others..not so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2018 at 22:04
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

I prefer studio albums, but really not for any "perfection" reasons. I am totally analog guy. The reason is that I think you make more creative choises in the studio, in live situation youīre just playing, no time to think what makes this song more "colourful". But of course, live records have more "band" feeling that you can very rare achieve in the studio, there are also really many live albums I enjoy a lot.

I am exactly of the opposite opinion. it is live albums that are more colorful because of the overtones
I am not sure, do I fully understand what you mean about overtones, but I think you can do that also in the studio if you just want. About most of new studio recordings I agree with you, todayīs "style" seem to be to make a package that really hasnīt got any sharpness or anything that might cause disturbance in some of the listeners. But that sixties-seventies analog studio sound, I just really love it, also there were then any need to try to cover all the mistakes that I think make music just natural.
 
I think there are live recordings that should not ever released. Itīs just in live playing there sometimes musicians canīt create that atmosphere, where it sounds like the whole band is as one. But when they can, it of course is really magical (have to say havenīt heard any poor live recording from King Crimson, but on the other hand really havenīt heard even half of them).

you obviously don't understand what overtones are all about. there is no button you can press, no knob you can turn, no switch you can flip and no slider you can move to "add overtones", like you can for example add distortion or reverb. you can only do it in the studio if you record live, else the overtones won't appear. it's a simple acoustic phenomenon.


what is said here about overtones in choral singing also happens when several instruments play at the same time or a combination of voices and instruments
Although Beatles started to record their albums in Sgt as one instrument/one track -system, it has been quite common also these days at least in rockbands that basic instruments are recorded together (guitars, bass, drums), then adding more to those basic tracks. Also many producers put microphones into room so they can get very natural sounding band sound when recording those basic tracks. Also, I think there still are some live recordings in the studio these days, in fifties and begin of sixties the records were made mostly live in the studio, sometimes even vocals. Steve Albini has been one of those producers, who has always try to make really live sounding studio albums, but anyway heīs really not my favourite producers.

All studios are "multi-track" studios. Whether that is a 2-track or 32-track present day studio, Beatles did not start anything you mention, I don't get what you mean by that anyhow?
Sgt Pepper was recorded using a 4-track reel to reel deck. What the Abbey Road engineers (not the Beatles themselves) did was to build on the concept of splicing 1 or several tracks onto say a 4 track machine that gave them a multi-track ability say 6-8 tracks. Which in the US studios, 8-track mastering decks already existed in the mid 60's, just not across the pond yet.

Recording "live" in the studio and using little to no compression, no EQ and maybe some reverb should allow any overtones to exist. Problem is digital processing is too clinical and taking a 24bit master and creating a 16bit CD version dumbs down the music and all the tidbits that might have been captured in the studio disappear....
Again your post has nothing to do with facts. They did in Sgt really many reduction mixes, so in those tracks there really are much more instruments, vocals etc. (a Day in Life whole symphony orchestra) than just 8. I really recommend you watch BBC Howard Goodall document of making of Sgt. My point was, that in Sgt Beatles started make music, thatīs not supposed to sound like live band playing. They built their music instrument by instrument.
 
But of course this is again just waste of time me, because youīre thinking Sgt is just bubblegum album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2018 at 10:17
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

I prefer studio albums, but really not for any "perfection" reasons. I am totally analog guy. The reason is that I think you make more creative choises in the studio, in live situation youīre just playing, no time to think what makes this song more "colourful". But of course, live records have more "band" feeling that you can very rare achieve in the studio, there are also really many live albums I enjoy a lot.
 
I am exactly of the opposite opinion. it is live albums that are more colorful because of the overtones
I am not sure, do I fully understand what you mean about overtones, but I think you can do that also in the studio if you just want. About most of new studio recordings I agree with you, todayīs "style" seem to be to make a package that really hasnīt got any sharpness or anything that might cause disturbance in some of the listeners. But that sixties-seventies analog studio sound, I just really love it, also there were then any need to try to cover all the mistakes that I think make music just natural.
 
I think there are live recordings that should not ever released. Itīs just in live playing there sometimes musicians canīt create that atmosphere, where it sounds like the whole band is as one. But when they can, it of course is really magical (have to say havenīt heard any poor live recording from King Crimson, but on the other hand really havenīt heard even half of them).
 
you obviously don't understand what overtones are all about. there is no button you can press, no knob you can turn, no switch you can flip and no slider you can move to "add overtones", like you can for example add distortion or reverb. you can only do it in the studio if you record live, else the overtones won't appear. it's a simple acoustic phenomenon.


what is said here about overtones in choral singing also happens when several instruments play at the same time or a combination of voices and instruments
Although Beatles started to record their albums in Sgt as one instrument/one track -system, it has been quite common also these days at least in rockbands that basic instruments are recorded together (guitars, bass, drums), then adding more to those basic tracks. Also many producers put microphones into room so they can get very natural sounding band sound when recording those basic tracks. Also, I think there still are some live recordings in the studio these days, in fifties and begin of sixties the records were made mostly live in the studio, sometimes even vocals. Steve Albini has been one of those producers, who has always try to make really live sounding studio albums, but anyway heīs really not my favourite producers.

All studios are "multi-track" studios. Whether that is a 2-track or 32-track present day studio, Beatles did not start anything you mention, I don't get what you mean by that anyhow?
Sgt Pepper was recorded using a 4-track reel to reel deck. What the Abbey Road engineers (not the Beatles themselves) did was to build on the concept of splicing 1 or several tracks onto say a 4 track machine that gave them a multi-track ability say 6-8 tracks. Which in the US studios, 8-track mastering decks already existed in the mid 60's, just not across the pond yet.

Recording "live" in the studio and using little to no compression, no EQ and maybe some reverb should allow any overtones to exist. Problem is digital processing is too clinical and taking a 24bit master and creating a 16bit CD version dumbs down the music and all the tidbits that might have been captured in the studio disappear....
Again your post has nothing to do with facts. They did in Sgt really many reduction mixes, so in those tracks there really are much more instruments, vocals etc. (a Day in Life whole symphony orchestra) than just 8. I really recommend you watch BBC Howard Goodall document of making of Sgt. My point was, that in Sgt Beatles started make music, thatīs not supposed to sound like live band playing. They built their music instrument by instrument.
 
But of course this is again just waste of time me, because youīre thinking Sgt is just bubblegum album.
My post has more than just facts....It's true LOL
I really do not understand your post, it makes no sense to what Sgt Pepper was about regarding the studio work that Martin and others did to create the sounds. I have already stated that is one album I do own by them and have played it, and with most all my albums I tend to find out what I can about how it was recorded and mastered, its just part of me understanding my album collection......Even though I don't listen to them.
I have albums by Barbra Streisand that I don't play but I know about the recording and production.

What is in red makes no sense you wrote and is really not fact. The 40pc orchestra was recorded using a 4-track tape deck, there were not 40 mics recording the orchestra Confused. And the other in red is wrong too, even I know that Sgt Pepper songs were mastered with no gaps so the songs are faded in together on both ends to give the impression of one live recording......Whether I think it is bubblegum girl pop music has nothing to do with how the album was produced and recorded and the techniques used.

Basically what you are talking about with this individual recording process by McCartney is the demise of the Fab Four, this was not what the other 3 wanted to do, it was what McCartney wanted to do. Even before Sgt Pepper recording I think Harrison wanted to leave but was talked into staying by Epstein......There are others on this site that know more about their history than I do they can weigh in, certainly not you, your facts are distorted. LOL

I'm done with this topic.....but the overtones topic is a good one.
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