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Spiritual/Religious Experience in Progressive Rock

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BillieJane View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillieJane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2018 at 08:10
Originally posted by Braka Braka wrote:

Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:



It can be completed online via the link below and, all in all, should only take 15-20 minutes of your time.




Less than one song!



Lol!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillieJane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2018 at 08:13
Originally posted by Matti Matti wrote:

I took the survey. Obviously there'll be many answers (similar to mine) underlining that it's just a matter of an emotional impact of art, nothing religious -- or even spiritual, depending how one understands spirituality.
      But of course those answers are equally valid. Good luck to the project!

Thank you - as you say, your answers are very valid! I'm not here to prove a religious point at all; content to continue to wonder if and how the spiritual and emotional are interlocked somewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillieJane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2018 at 08:29
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

Sorry … the survey failed and would not load a page after the group names.

I am curious as to how this survey can give a good answer, when/if the definitions and directions for what would be considered a "religious experience" is not clearly defined.

All music, as indeed most of the arts, even in history (although sometimes jaded … ie … renaissance!), these definitions have not been well defined, except by a group of folks that thought themselves more spiritual than any of us.

The 20th and now the 21st Century is pretty much about de-bunking that kind of thinking and there has been quite a large amount of literature that is not of the childish quality or the pop-media quality, that describes a lot of these experiences, many of which can be said to be "religious experiences" and not just a vision or a dream.

Myself, I am a person who looks for a lot of music with religious intent, and mostly with a meditative point, rather than some unimportant lyrics, that supposedly define the "experience" in the music, which is not necessarily anything that would have to do with a "religious" experience, other than its suggestive mode, which distorts your ability to find, and understand that which you are experiencing. Not to mention that history has not been kind to serious visionaries, and in many cases punished them, for their inner knowledge and experiences.

Rock music, progressive or otherwise, for my tastes, is too much of an "idea", than a reality … and if your work is strictly based on ideas, clarifying them and making them important, is a lifetime study that many  undertake, and just about as many fail to reach the point that is being looked for, or a clear understanding of the complete adventure.

I wish you the best, but there are several postings of mine describing many of the "spiritual" things that I have within my collection.

BTW, I would prefer that things like King Crimson, or many of the bands listed, not be described as having a potential for a 'religious experience", when KC is not about religion but an "artistic endeavor" of a much higher quality than mere pop music of which many of those bands listed are a part of, which lacks some depth in their "spirituality", compared to folks that really have it and do it continuously in their music. 

Sadly, although they fit an "artistic experience" much more than "religious" things like Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream are not mentioned or suggested and in many ways they are much better suited for a meditation and a religious experience than many of the songs that so many of those bands continuously sing because we like our top ten.

Good luck, and I wish you the best, although it is my opinion (strictly an opinion) that the value and depth of your work is going to be ending up defined by some lyrics … by people that really are just writing clever words that seem to be wonderful and powerful in their nature, but in reality, are … sometimes … more vain than otherwise.

Hey... thank you so much for taking the time to write the reply. I'll try to re-send the link to you in case it works this time, because I appreciate so much of what you've written here and it would be fantastic opinion to include within the survey results. 

Many people have answered the questions about religious experience, suggesting that the average prog fan does know a bit about such things - and together, rather a lot is known. I would suggest that the sort of 'de-bunked' or enlightened thinking is more widespread than you perhaps imply.

Perhaps some pluralism about what point it is that you are trying to reach, would result in a more positive assessment of many people's 'lifetime endeavours'. For me, 'misunderstandings' and new contexts can be just as enlightening, if not more, than supposed 'right' answers.

Perhaps the survey failed to load the bit directly after the list of bands which says - all of these have been said to count as progressive rock, and many more. Please talk about whatever bands you like in the following questions!

Perhaps using this link will get you to a better version of the survey - if you have any more time to spend : http://itia.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2018/07/04/call-for-survey-participants/


Edited by BillieJane - July 09 2018 at 08:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2018 at 15:32
Hi Kirsty, have filled in your survey but there was a mistake in my email address.. apologies.. good luck and kindest regards. Cosmic J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cord Change Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2018 at 16:10
I feel prog is may be religious in a Dostoevsky kind of way that is always questioning itself. I think it’s often confused, emotion and “religious experiences”. A religious experience in my mind would simply be going to a place of worship. Even arguing with a preacher could be considered a religious experience. Apart from subject matter in a song I’m not sure how you could have a religious experience while doing anything that is not directly related to a religion...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2018 at 10:03
Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

...
A religious experience in my mind would simply be going to a place of worship. ...

Or to a concert ... it really amounts to nearly the same thing, with one exception. Within a concert, like a church, there is a physical connection that can help the event take place, although the influences within that connection are more likely to confuse you, than they are to help you ... in the end, a spiritual path, or even a religious experience, is an individual matter, and what makes it "religious" is your ability to understand it and put it to work.

In other words, let's say you get stoned for the concert, or take a hit of a psychedelic, and you might have an exaltation that approximates the "religious experience", however, that happening, again, is distorted by conditions that are not conducive to you remembering it properly and correctly to be able to put the contents in order ... and this was what a lot of the Beatles stuff in their later years were saying as well, and the reason why they were with this and that person in India to learn more about its depth.

Sadly, very little of it lived past the breakup of their band! but that would be expected considering how difficult it is to group up the individual experiences, when in the end, they are all such an internally devised exploration.

As a further, stranger example, the BARDO, has a series of "doors" with "dragons" in it, and these are not real doors or dragons ... they are the images that we concoct when we do not recognize and understand something in the inner side of things in these experiences. And these kinds of things, are the ones that tend to hurt the person learn its inner messages and details that allow you to experience these things further and further into the ends of your soul/spirit confines.

I do not doubt, EVER, that there is spiritual context within everything ... what I doubt, is that too many of these rock music pieces, are about the wording and lyrics, and not necessarily what the music is about, which when separated from the lyrics might not quite be as good or as much. And this is the hard part ... how do you know, instinctively, that something is true or not ... how do you spell out your own experience, and in this sense, things like "Stairway to Heaven" are a gross misstep towards what the song really wants to convey and I would even imply that musically it does so, although I seriously doubt that as many people would speak about it as passionately as I do ... and I happen to love Led Zeppelin, and was very sad when Bonzo died, because I felt inside that what made the group work was the combination of the 4, and it was vastly clear in all bootlegs!

Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

...Apart from subject matter in a song I’m not sure how you could have a religious experience while doing anything that is not directly related to a religion...

If we take the word out of the equation, anything can be a "religious experience", including sex. The problem, and what I specified earlier, is that the context that we are looking at is so highly directed to an area, where it is possible that a lot of the work mentioned is not as serious as the context of a "religious experience", and this will only confuse many of us and its definitions, and in the end, create a serious problem with the direction of the work at hand.

Further example: If you listen to Rachel flowers do a whole bunch of ELP on the piano, you recognize really quickly how great of a composition it is for many pieces. This, could be considered a "religious experience" for both Keith and Rachel, because they are playing it and feeling it (specially Rachel being blind!) to a level that we can not exactly conceive, or understand ... which is close to what a "religious experience" would normally be.

Gurdjieff, for example, does not like to mention these things as a religious experience, but an internal personal experience, that can be shared. Hopefully I am not misunderstanding what he says, but you can see how this could be really valuable and important for an artistic group of musicians, rather than create a pre-defined pop song, which would take most of the "religious experience" out of it, for ME. AND, this is the reason, why I do not like to hear, or see, people say ... "rock'n'roll", or "progressive this or that", because you are locking up the whole thing into an idea ... rather than a reality ... and that is NOT the way to learn anything from anything ... that's probably elementary Lobsang Rampa, btw.

One great read, would be Carlos Castaneda, but some folks do not seem to want to find out what all of it is about ... the last couple of books, for example, are about visions, and the last one dreams. The "ART OF DREAMING" is exactly that, though it takes a sort of step like to details that are somewhat similar to the BARDO for me, but they are better suited for anyone of us to work with than the BARDO, for example. 

And these are very difficult to read and learn, because of the nature of the internal work that you have to dedicate to, that most of us do not have the time, or the place to try it with. 

It almost feels like the way the world is going, killing any "religious experience" is what all of this is about, since it is so difficult to pick up the points within it, and how they work, and then, harder yet to know/figureout the next step ... and as a psychic friend of mine used to say ... we go from this box to that box and then another box (always a different box of course), and one day we get to the point where we have to get rid of the box that creates all the boxes, and ... we stop and die ... because a "no-box" was not a part of the curriculum ... in other words, it was not the correct path or way of the inner side of ourselves.

Sorry that some of this seems so scattered and may not be properly worded. It's the best I can spell what I have been through, and what music does for me ... music, for me, IS my "religious experience" and it doesn't matter if it is Albinoni's Adagio in G, or Terje Rypdal's Mirage or Adagietto from EOS, or Djam Karet's The Trip. I'm just not sure that many folks can understand how such different music's can be so valuable to an inner self, but it is to me.

BTW, was able to finish the survey.

Thx


Edited by moshkito - July 10 2018 at 10:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cord Change Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2018 at 16:09
Basically everything you described as a religious experience is just urphoria. You listed concerts, drugs and sex. As soon as you start confusing religious experiences with real physical attributes like urphoria and dopeamean all made inside your body with no divine influence, that’s when things get ridiculous. I advise that whatever books you read concerning the subject are probably the most boring reads ever printed.

I know you will surely want to write another essay for me but I assure you it will not change my mind about this. I understand that it would be cool to if these things were related to anything other then chemical reactions in our bodies but it’s simply not the case. ‘No gods a man’ because gods not real.


Edited by Cord Change - July 10 2018 at 16:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2018 at 09:06
Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

Basically everything you described as a religious experience is just urphoria. You listed concerts, drugs and sex. As soon as you start confusing religious experiences with real physical attributes like urphoria and dopeamean all made inside your body with no divine influence, that’s when things get ridiculous. I advise that whatever books you read concerning the subject are probably the most boring reads ever printed. 
...

Sorry that you feel this way. In the end, it is the same body, mind and soul/spirit experiencing these things and it does not matter what it is that carries you there, provided that you have the ability to learn from it.

As I like to say, it does not matter how "knowledge" of any kind gets to you, religious or otherwise ... it can come with a slap to the face, or a kick in the butt, or getting hit by a Mack truck, or even by sitting and lucidly getting hit by a piece of music, or walking into the Sistine chapel and immediately having an inner trip!

LIFE IS ... and separating it from the body of ours is what the religious history is all about, to make sure that we can not do what the "saints" and the "gods" did, and have done that is written about. Surely you must be aware of that idea. it has been a problem with the mind of humans for millennia, by ensuring that a ruling order is more important to our feudal systems of existence. It has NOTHING to do with religion at that point, and in fact it is more about de-sensitizing the human experience to ensure they can not enjoy or appreciate that inner relationship with the "father" (as our most well known friend would say!).

None of this is about "ideas" or "concepts". This is all about one's own connection to their inner self and their ability to resolve it ... and everything else around it, is just manipulation of the human spirit for social purposes and to ensure that you have a wife, 2.1 kids and a car and house and are in debt for 30 years so the "lords" can benefit from your slavery!

Be it drugs, sex, or anything else, it is all within the "human experience" within the body and as such, you have no criteria whatsoever, to define and state that one is valid and the other is not. The body/mind/soul/spirit of that person felt it and lived through it ... and that is as valid an experience as any other, and to think that it has to have the cherubs, the naked maidens and this and that, and not the distorted energy fields of color and vision, is the same thing as stating that you are simply not interested in the human experience as a whole holistic experience.

I haven't done drugs for 35 years, but through meditation, dreaming and music, I have developed a lot of the inner studies that allow me to write this ... it is not some flight of fancy, and I DENY that even a couple of LSD trips were not valid in my experience ... there is NOTHING in your life's story that is not valid to your experience, except what you refuse to accept and understand, and that is a mental process, that, btw, prevents a lot of "religious" and other "inner" experiences from taking place for you! 

This is NOT, a New Age type of thing whatsoever ... this is a serious study of the inner self, and its attention span .. something that has been in the mind/soul/spirit of many mystics for thousands of years, and their words and experience is not less because you and I choose this or that and defy/deny this or that. We're all different and take to our experiences very differently. I did not take drugs because I was escaping from dad and mom, or to run away from home, or to have the hour or two with my girlfriend. I took them to explore and listen to music and paint, and write ... and to specially experience something myself that one of my favorite writer put together ... THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION ... an experience that helped me find and understand that there was a lot more inside than I could ever conceive, or know about!

The rest is up to you ... not me to comment or decide!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cord Change Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2018 at 16:09
Absolute waffling on about nothing. Way to much time on your hands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillieJane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2018 at 09:10
Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

I feel prog is may be religious in a Dostoevsky kind of way that is always questioning itself. I think it’s often confused, emotion and “religious experiences”. A religious experience in my mind would simply be going to a place of worship. Even arguing with a preacher could be considered a religious experience. Apart from subject matter in a song I’m not sure how you could have a religious experience while doing anything that is not directly related to a religion...

What do you make of some of the Spinners at Grateful Dead concerts who were devoted to a specific 'Church', or when some fans called the drugs consumed 'sacraments'? Just an example of something - wasn't done in an ironic way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2018 at 14:17
Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

Basically everything you described as a religious experience is just urphoria. You listed concerts, drugs and sex. As soon as you start confusing religious experiences with real physical attributes like urphoria and dopeamean all made inside your body with no divine influence, that’s when things get ridiculous. I advise that whatever books you read concerning the subject are probably the most boring reads ever printed.

I know you will surely want to write another essay for me but I assure you it will not change my mind about this. I understand that it would be cool to if these things were related to anything other then chemical reactions in our bodies but it’s simply not the case. ‘No gods a man’ because gods not real.
 

I'm sure that nobody (god forbid!) would want to try and change your mind about anything but before you go criticising and being objectionably rude to people here (people who have differing views, ideas and world experiences to you), learn to f**king spellAngry 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2018 at 14:33
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:

Originally posted by Cord Change Cord Change wrote:

I feel prog is may be religious in a Dostoevsky kind of way that is always questioning itself. I think it’s often confused, emotion and “religious experiences”. A religious experience in my mind would simply be going to a place of worship. Even arguing with a preacher could be considered a religious experience. Apart from subject matter in a song I’m not sure how you could have a religious experience while doing anything that is not directly related to a religion...

What do you make of some of the Spinners at Grateful Dead concerts who were devoted to a specific 'Church', or when some fans called the drugs consumed 'sacraments'? Just an example of something - wasn't done in an ironic way. 
 

I guess there are quite a few here who wouldn't consider the Dead a prog band (well they're not strictly speaking but I consider they have been 'Progressive' in many ways) but they are a very interesting case in that many of their fans do relate to them and their concerts in an almost religious way, following them around the US (and abroad) and using drugs in an almost sacramental way. But all this is linked to the counter-culture of the 1960s and early 70's which was, in part, about trying to re-connect with something spiritually holistic that offered more/ something different to that offered by mainstream Christianity etc. Hawkwind and Gong are probably the closest in that kind of fanbase attitude in the UK (but possibly with a good dose of humour and irony mixed in) and I am sure that many of the German groups like Amon Duul II built up a similar reputation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2018 at 14:41
Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

...
I guess there are quite a few here who wouldn't consider the Dead a prog band (well they're not strictly speaking but I consider they have been 'Progressive' in many ways) but they are a very interesting case in that many of their fans do relate to them and their concerts in an almost religious way, following them around the US (and abroad) and using drugs in an almost sacramental way. 

This is the hard part of discussing a lot of these things, and why I requested a better definition of what the "eperience" was, so more of us might habe a better idea how to answer the question in such a way as it would be valuable and forward thinking for the work at hand by the student.

Of all the concerts I have been a part of, going back to 1972, I did not find the experiences that different from visiting a cathedral that was 600 or 700 years old in Europe, whose history is so strong that the moment you step onto it, it has a hold of you!

Including in these events at GD concerts, I would like to add the drum circles in the early days, the ones here in Eugene's Country Fair are legendary, but the attitude and quality of the experience in those days, was magnificent and one did not have to be stoned to appreciate all the nice work and dedication to creating something special. But, above all, the one thing that you knew and learned was the peaceful way and really amazing collective soul of the event ... it was special in that way. It could be considered a "religious experience", since we know that many African tribes, for example, do these things for many reasons, and establishing the strong side of it, is the important part. Because it is not within the context of a church, we do not consider these things a "religious expeience" when in fact, their concluding thought would be to reach a similar state, but since we do not study those events, we have to rely on ideas from the Western Civilization books, that are simplistic and not even clear as to their intent and quality of the events.

Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

...
But all this is linked to the counter-culture of the 1960s and early 70's which was, in part, about trying to re-connect with something spiritually holistic that offered more/ something different to that offered by mainstream Christianity etc. ....

I have never looked at these as any different than all the others. I think the only difference is the clothing and maybe a drink at the start. All "ceremony" includes something or other for you to ingest, or drink, that you and I are not sure influence the events of the evening.

Every generation finds a different way of doing things, regardless of what they are, and these things are intrinsically connected with their time and place. So today, someone can have a "religious experience" with their smartphone, just listening to Pink Floyd, or seeing a picture of a friend. 40 to 50 years ago, we did these things more on a one to one basis, which was closer to the stories and ways of the past history of this subject. Our own children, will find/see something else and change it to fit their style as well, but the main factor will always be the underlying attitude and feelings during the event, and these will always compare favorably.

The only concern I have, is that we are mentioning bands (OK with me), but there is one issue. You and I do not have a clear idea or concept if the wording is "right" and "proper" for one of these experiences, when considering (specially) that the next song is about something else and nowhere near this previous song that is capable of triggering different reactions. And my main concern, would then be, that "Stairway to Heaven" becomes the main theme song for this study, and that would be wrong, and negate a lot of spiritual and energetic work by so many others that will never be heard or found out. In this sense, the likes of Frank Perry, Stephen Micus, some works by Peter Michael Hamel, an incredible number of Hindu folks which Ravi Shankar helped us hear and learn about, or the Indonesia tribes, the Australian aborigenes and their own version of "music", Wolff and Hemmings, Paul Horn ... and while I can see how the numbers are insane in trying to list them all, I do think that it brings down the quality of the "religious experience" to one that you can buy at K-Mart!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2018 at 06:14
I filled this in but realised that I don't have that much to say.
There are very special music listening experiences, but I struggle to brand them as anything else than music listening experiences. When does it become "spiritual" or "religious"? I don't really have words to describe what music can do to me, certainly it can be a "total" experience, but it's rather separate from what I'd call a "religious" experience. Then, I don't know whether I ever had a religious one. Not sure about "spiritual" either. I have a certain amount of meditation experience and had a lot of exposure to Christian religious practice (most of the latter left me cold, though), but for me what people tend to call "spiritual experience" of this kind goes beyond language in various directions. This it has in common with a music listening experience but otherwise these are rather different (as far as I have experienced them) and branding the lot of them as "spiritual" for me rather looks like caused by the fact that language doesn't do justice to these experiences.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2018 at 11:40
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

branding the lot of them as "spiritual" for me rather looks like caused by the fact that language doesn't do justice to these experiences.



Interesting idea. One man's 'ineffable' is another man's door-knock by religion. Music does have the ability to move us in all manner of deeply profound ways but as you state, the inability to articulate our own ideas or feelings shouldn't be confused with a spiritual/religious experience. Many of my favourite musicians have opined that they believe they are but the conduit for an artistic muse that channels it's treasures through them. I don't buy this as I've always had a problem believing that transcendental agents actually exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2018 at 11:52
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

There are very special music listening experiences, but I struggle to brand them as anything else than music listening experiences. When does it become "spiritual" or "religious"? I don't really have words to describe what music can do to me, certainly it can be a "total" experience, but it's rather separate from what I'd call a "religious" experience....

This is what is scary and difficult for me. Not to define it, I feel I have a strong enough internal constitution that being able to explain, and hopefully being able to work with them, can define them as an important experience.

However, in the end, all experiences are important, and us setting up a quota system for the values for one or the other is the part that confuses the issue.

So, let's say, a religious experience, has to have a replay of a scene from the big book, which is scary for me, since the book is, at best, a poor translation and is not a literal description of the events, specially when it was written several hundred years later. THUS, the important side of this is to find a parallel for the experiences that would better explain the ones described, and allowed you to view yours and understand it, since comparing yours to the book, is obviously, gonna show that you can not have a religious experience like the "masters" and the "named" did. In other words the description of the inner event for those folks is not clear, and the institution of the religions does not allow you to have experiences of our own, since they do not wish to relinguish their ability to hold themselves spiritual and religious and you a servant to the "God".  

I think, I THINK, that language has gotten quite better at describing these things, however, to the average person, these things are scary, and it is much easier to follow a book and idea, than it is to actually try and do it, or have the experience. Not to mention that one's ability to decipher it is totally damaged due to the lack of knowledge and explanation of the older material ... to them the "content" was more important than the experience, whereas in the 20th century we are finding out that without the "experience" the content is meaningless, and this is where the "definition" is going to hurt the work for this student the way I see it, not to mention that most academic institutions do not exactly support inventive and creative ideas that seem to mean a strong addition to their curriculum. 


Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

...  I have a certain amount of meditation experience and had a lot of exposure to Christian religious practice (most of the latter left me cold, though), but for me what people tend to call "spiritual experience" of this kind goes beyond language in various directions. This it has in common with a music listening experience but otherwise these are rather different (as far as I have experienced them) and branding the lot of them as "spiritual" for me rather looks like caused by the fact that language doesn't do justice to these experiences.

I am not convinced that "language" is the issue, but at the bery least with various different languages one becomes highly aware of bad translations and pointed descriptions to fall into a category or another. Most church teachings of any kind are centered on these pointed descriptions. A serious study of their anchor that created the religion in the first place, will never take place, as it would, for the most part, take apart their scriptures and that could have a disastrous result in the life and control of that group of folks. This would specially hurt the feudal systems of religion so common in various areas of the world, and how they put their ideas to work. It changes the focus from the main being to the control side of things.

For me, I tend to not define this experience such and such, and that one such and such, and the other one such and such ... and my reason why was stated above ... same person, same body, same mind ... thus it is all an "experience" for this entity of the body at this time and place. The differences, for me, are merely PREFERENCES.

Language, in the end, is only as good as we use it. But if one is not used to describe their inner workings, it won't work with the emotes and the abbreviations that so many folks use on a smartphone, for example, and this, is important ... there are no short cuts to the inner experience. And I try to extend this to music and the arts ... specially in my earlier days when "progressive" for me, meant a longer piece of music and an attempt for the musicians involved in creating something more than just a pop song for the top of the pops.

And this is my question for the study ... are you merely trying to get a top ten of songs for your "study" ... and I would probably say that is not enough for a senior project at an university level ... and the hardest part? ... Band such and such only has one song that looks spiritual, and is listed in the choices! Heck, you might as well add Black Sabbath to the list! 
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReactioninG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2018 at 12:55
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:


Currently i'm wondering whether there can be such a thing as 'too virtuosic' for letting you get inside a piece; whether that sometimes splinters concentration. E.g. Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman's playing? Vs. David Gilmour's extremely accommodating guitar. Just a whim at the moment! I'm definitely getting to like ELP and Yes a lot more as I go on!


One thing this made me think is what if the musicians and songwriters themselves don't believe in religion? Gilmour doesn't (nor does Waters), at least Lake from ELP didn't, etc. etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2018 at 13:49
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

branding the lot of them as "spiritual" for me rather looks like caused by the fact that language doesn't do justice to these experiences.



Interesting idea. One man's 'ineffable' is another man's door-knock by religion. Music does have the ability to move us in all manner of deeply profound ways but as you state, the inability to articulate our own ideas or feelings shouldn't be confused with a spiritual/religious experience. Many of my favourite musicians have opined that they believe they are but the conduit for an artistic muse that channels it's treasures through them. I don't buy this as I've always had a problem believing that transcendental agents actually exist.

If one doesn't believe in religion, one is not going to get a "religious" experience listening to music. Generally speaking, music is meant to evoke a response in the listener. The feeling a listener gets, whether that be sadness, tranquility, anger, joy, is dependent on the musician's ability to convey that emotion through the composition. The better the performer is, the better chance of a heightened experience by the listener. That heightened experience may well border on, for want of a better term, a mystical or spiritual awareness, wherein the listener's mind is transported, or otherwise stimulated or awestruck, so that there is a period of enlightenment while the performance ensues.

It's happened to all of us, I would think. You are listening to a song and suddenly nothing else matters but the continued and mellifluous accord between performer and audience. But one doesn't require a deity to feel such a heightened emotional response. In real terms, your mind has literally been "played".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2018 at 18:06
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:


If one doesn't believe in religion, one is not going to get a "religious" experience listening to music. Generally speaking, music is meant to evoke a response in the listener. The feeling a listener gets, whether that be sadness, tranquility, anger, joy, is dependent on the musician's ability to convey that emotion through the composition. The better the performer is, the better chance of a heightened experience by the listener. That heightened experience may well border on, for want of a better term, a mystical or spiritual awareness, wherein the listener's mind is transported, or otherwise stimulated or awestruck, so that there is a period of enlightenment while the performance ensues.

It's happened to all of us, I would think. You are listening to a song and suddenly nothing else matters but the continued and mellifluous accord between performer and audience. But one doesn't require a deity to feel such a heightened emotional response. In real terms, your mind has literally been "played".


Yes, for me at such moments time seems to stand still. (Not sure it's that crucial if the intended emotion is conveyed or not?). John Updike paraphrased your last sentence in his 'Rabbit' trilogy thus:
We contain chords others must strike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2018 at 19:02
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:


If one doesn't believe in religion, one is not going to get a "religious" experience listening to music. Generally speaking, music is meant to evoke a response in the listener. The feeling a listener gets, whether that be sadness, tranquility, anger, joy, is dependent on the musician's ability to convey that emotion through the composition. The better the performer is, the better chance of a heightened experience by the listener. That heightened experience may well border on, for want of a better term, a mystical or spiritual awareness, wherein the listener's mind is transported, or otherwise stimulated or awestruck, so that there is a period of enlightenment while the performance ensues.

It's happened to all of us, I would think. You are listening to a song and suddenly nothing else matters but the continued and mellifluous accord between performer and audience. But one doesn't require a deity to feel such a heightened emotional response. In real terms, your mind has literally been "played".


Yes, for me at such moments time seems to stand still. (Not sure it's that crucial if the intended emotion is conveyed or not?). John Updike paraphrased your last sentence in his 'Rabbit' trilogy thus:
We contain chords others must strike.
Hence, my writing career has not gone the way of Mr. Updike's. LOL
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