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Spiritual/Religious Experience in Progressive Rock

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Manuel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 09:04
I also took the survey, so I hope it helps you somehow. Good luck to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 09:35
I took the survey.  Although not really religious or spiritual, I am apt to "flights of fancy" when listening to prog.  I try to relate some of those flights in my reviews.

My only wish in the survey was that they defined what they meant by "religious" or "spiritual".  Do you have to believe in a God to have such an experience?  Do you have to be a practicing member of a religion, and uphold the tenets that they espouse?

It's almost as nebulous as defining "prog", for heaven's sake. <grin>

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Braka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 10:33
Originally posted by BillieJane BillieJane wrote:



It can be completed online via the link below and, all in all, should only take 15-20 minutes of your time.




Less than one song!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 12:18
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:


I'm with you all the way. It's just that I've always had an overriding urge to put everything on its head. Even when I was a little kid I had long mind breaks thinking about how weird it would be if 'life' wasn't what we understood it to be and that mountains all of this time had been talking behind our backs? I once thought long and hard about the sea perhaps inhabited the wisest of creatures and that we just hadn't figured out the lingo yet. Maybe aliens had been to earth and they'd just had a chat with some spermwhales.
Growing older and oddly enough much more enamoured with logic, science and Occam's razor...I still purposely fling out wild "theories" about life, the universe and everything like bon bons
I entirely blame Monty Python and Douglas Adams.


I'm a great believer in Occam's razor and like to take serious flights of fancy (lots of "what if?s). Adams and Monty Python were brilliant because they knowingly took the absurd and went with it, knowing how absurd some of those ideas were, but there was also an internal logic to it, such as the Shoe Event Horizon. Adams could make nonsense sound so sensible, and quite sensible things sound quite nonsensical (there's method in apparent madness, to be cliche). It rather amazes how many insensible ideas are held as canonical by so many people (it's true because it says so). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and the simplest explanation that requires the minimum number of assumptions is generally more likely and makes the more valid argument. That said, if you look into physics such as quantum physics and relativity, or hypotheses such as the holographic principle/ universe, the universe can operate in counterintuitive ways. I appreciate the sense of mystery, and enjoy asking questions, and making strange "what if" leaps. I do wish that less people put faith into stone age musings, but dogma/ doctrine can be a real sense of comfort. I'll take astronomy over astrology, science over superstition, and reason over revelation. I still think there is place for fun and mythology and fantasy generally. I love to think about strange and unlikely things But I digressed really badly an am getting into material best suited for the Deep Thinking thread (not Adams' Deep Thought, but geekfreak's Deep Thinking).

I love this passage from [edit] "Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There" by the American track and field athlete Carl Lewis, erm, Lewis Carroll.

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.""

Edited by Logan - July 06 2018 at 13:13
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 12:40
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


I love this passage from Alice in Wonderland:

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.""


Ahem. This passage is from "Through the Looking Glass and what Alice Found there" (from the chapter "Wool and Water"). The "Alice" books are my favourite books ever, and it makes me happy to share birthday with Lewis Carroll (Jan 27th).


Edited by BaldFriede - July 06 2018 at 12:53


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 12:54
Silly me, thought it might be. I have become terribly unreliable -- been many years since I last read it, but that passage stuck with me.

"Always speak the truth, think before you speak, and write it down afterwards" (Lewis Carroll).

Too often I'm guilty of starting with writing it down first, but given the opportunities, I often eventually reach the truth in the editing process. Good thing we have members to peer review our posts here.

"For my life, I confess to you, feels to me today somewhat narrow and circumscribed" (Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows).

Edited by Logan - July 06 2018 at 13:03
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 13:07
That's one of the best posts I've read in a long time Greg, thanks for that. I have nothing to add really - you took the words right out of my mouth and (obviously) made them make sense

Btw I recently watched World War Z again and thought about how much of my life has been spent as the 10th man - ie destined to flirt with the unlikely.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2018 at 13:09
Oh and I just finished your survey Klmberley. Feel free to contact me if you need anything
Best of luck!
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2018 at 12:01
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^Are you sure that wasn't due to the black Lebanese hash...? 
Straight to a drug reference. How perfectly predictable.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ReactioninG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2018 at 16:58
Heh. Why Prog?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillieJane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2018 at 08:35
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

^^Hi Greg, nice talking to you again.
You mention a lot of the same music that I want to mention in particular A Meditation Mass which encapsulates a special reverence to these ears...then again I get the same kind of transcendental feel (great word btw and transcendental also better connects with me) from Bobby Beausoleil's Lucifer Rising.
This all actually concerns the absolute core of my love for music. David Gilmour was the first person ever to introduce me to this earthshattering experience...and he didn't even know hah! Nah but Comfortably Numb was still the first piece of music that catapulted me into that special place where time seizes to exist and you're one with everything...or something to that effect.
I remember one time I saw an interview with Carlos Santana talking about the power of music and those special times where he'd hit the right notes, at the right time, with sheer brute emotional force, and to some it was like touching god or maybe making love to the most beautiful woman in the world. I am paraphrasing here but I remember the gist of it perfectly and I happen to agree with him.
We are most likely experiencing a lot of the same things here, but I think culture and upbringing has a lot to do with how we process these things afterwards. Personally I'd like to keep as agnostic a view as my logic allows me to have.

On a little sidenote: as a man who has lived his whole life with a mild form of synestesia, it is remarkable how much music can transform in front of (or in my case behind) my eyes. Depending on the day, year, what I was going through etc etc the same music would change forms and colours, though still keeping its...erm natural presence. It is hard to describe but imagine a criss cross between sun dots and twirling cigarette smoke 'miming' the music and you're halfway there. The other more interesting thing about this little "wiring gone crazy" of mine is that it can heighten my awareness and effectively make me feel like I hear EVERYTHING and it almost gets to be too much - in fact it always reminds me of the same dream I always have when I have a fever: like being engulfed in a black hole. Sorta like this freakish implosion of the mind. Then again go back far enough and that's how we all started. We're made of the same star stuff. Who knows what strange proporties our minds have? That's also the beauty of it. We know next to nothing about how our own brains work. We have ideas sure, but generally speaking we're still at the very early stages of understanding the billions of connections that constitute our mental highway. That is also why the whole robot/AI scare is such bs. We haven't even figured out how and where emotions form - we even have trouble saying what they are from a scientic point of view, so how on earth are we going to 'learn' the robots?

On the other hand, and back to patterned sound again, who knows, maybe when we get these 'soul orgasms' in music we inadvertantly turn on a special feature in our brains that allow us to make long distance cosmic telephone calls. Dial up Orion's Belt on a tuesday for starters!

Hah! I rambled. Sorry if the sense is missing. It rang true in my head.

Oh and I wish you the best of luck on your thesis Kimberley. It sounds like a very interesting read.

Fascinating! Thank you so much for sharing. 
David Gilmour was the first to do it for me too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillieJane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2018 at 08:49
Originally posted by ReactioninG ReactioninG wrote:

Heh. Why Prog?

Great question! That is being carefully considered as I write. 

I think prog has some of the closest links to Romantic ideals - hippie ethos, myths and legends, extended form and transportation.

Of course, it is possible to have these kinds of experience anywhere - in all forms of music. But their shape nd form might well be different in forms like hip hop.

Currently i'm wondering whether there can be such a thing as 'too virtuosic' for letting you get inside a piece; whether that sometimes splinters concentration. E.g. Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman's playing? Vs. David Gilmour's extremely accommodating guitar. Just a whim at the moment! I'm definitely getting to like ELP and Yes a lot more as I go on!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillieJane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2018 at 08:57
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Silly me, thought it might be. I have become terribly unreliable -- been many years since I last read it, but that passage stuck with me.

"Always speak the truth, think before you speak, and write it down afterwards" (Lewis Carroll).

Too often I'm guilty of starting with writing it down first, but given the opportunities, I often eventually reach the truth in the editing process. Good thing we have members to peer review our posts here.

"For my life, I confess to you, feels to me today somewhat narrow and circumscribed" (Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows).

Writer self is an alter ego! It's a lovely, oddly frequent surprise when I write something that sounds too clever for me to have come up with. And certainly - conversely - it also often takes several redrafts until I come to a valid point!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillieJane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2018 at 08:59
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

I took the survey.  Although not really religious or spiritual, I am apt to "flights of fancy" when listening to prog.  I try to relate some of those flights in my reviews.

My only wish in the survey was that they defined what they meant by "religious" or "spiritual".  Do you have to believe in a God to have such an experience?  Do you have to be a practicing member of a religion, and uphold the tenets that they espouse?

It's almost as nebulous as defining "prog", for heaven's sake. <grin>


haha, yes... it's what you make of it! I look forward to defining it... may be a group effort pooling on what participants make of it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillieJane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2018 at 09:02
Just a note to say thanks everyone so much who has taken part! I am tremendously enjoying reading many responses (which are kept anonymous). Best part of the PhD so far!! It's still open a few more weeks if anyone wants, and has yet to do it.

Edited by BillieJane - July 08 2018 at 09:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote philipemery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2018 at 09:49
I took the survey. Not at all religious (complete atheist).

If you want any more information, feel free to ask. I am around here daily, and all.

I did leave my email in the survey as well.
But the sun is eclipsed by the moon. -- Pink Floyd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2018 at 15:50
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^Are you sure that wasn't due to the black Lebanese hash...? 
Straight to a drug reference. How perfectly predictable.

Well..yes you are very predictable.

;)
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2018 at 22:46
Hi,

Sorry … the survey failed and would not load a page after the group names.

I am curious as to how this survey can give a good answer, when/if the definitions and directions for what would be considered a "religious experience" is not clearly defined.

All music, as indeed most of the arts, even in history (although sometimes jaded … ie … renaissance!), these definitions have not been well defined, except by a group of folks that thought themselves more spiritual than any of us.

The 20th and now the 21st Century is pretty much about de-bunking that kind of thinking and there has been quite a large amount of literature that is not of the childish quality or the pop-media quality, that describes a lot of these experiences, many of which can be said to be "religious experiences" and not just a vision or a dream.

Myself, I am a person who looks for a lot of music with religious intent, and mostly with a meditative point, rather than some unimportant lyrics, that supposedly define the "experience" in the music, which is not necessarily anything that would have to do with a "religious" experience, other than its suggestive mode, which distorts your ability to find, and understand that which you are experiencing. Not to mention that history has not been kind to serious visionaries, and in many cases punished them, for their inner knowledge and experiences.

Rock music, progressive or otherwise, for my tastes, is too much of an "idea", than a reality … and if your work is strictly based on ideas, clarifying them and making them important, is a lifetime study that many  undertake, and just about as many fail to reach the point that is being looked for, or a clear understanding of the complete adventure.

I wish you the best, but there are several postings of mine describing many of the "spiritual" things that I have within my collection.

BTW, I would prefer that things like King Crimson, or many of the bands listed, not be described as having a potential for a 'religious experience", when KC is not about religion but an "artistic endeavor" of a much higher quality than mere pop music of which many of those bands listed are a part of, which lacks some depth in their "spirituality", compared to folks that really have it and do it continuously in their music. 

Sadly, although they fit an "artistic experience" much more than "religious" things like Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream are not mentioned or suggested and in many ways they are much better suited for a meditation and a religious experience than many of the songs that so many of those bands continuously sing because we like our top ten.

Good luck, and I wish you the best, although it is my opinion (strictly an opinion) that the value and depth of your work is going to be ending up defined by some lyrics … by people that really are just writing clever words that seem to be wonderful and powerful in their nature, but in reality, are … sometimes … more vain than otherwise.
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2018 at 01:44
I took the survey. Obviously there'll be many answers (similar to mine) underlining that it's just a matter of an emotional impact of art, nothing religious -- or even spiritual, depending how one understands spirituality.
      But of course those answers are equally valid. Good luck to the project!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2018 at 06:04
Headphones on. Tales From Topographic Oceans queued.
Religious experience ahead!!!
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